[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:51 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Fiasco wrote:I think this was a very atypical run due to the serial killer 1) not blocking any of the switches, and 2) dying N1. I'm not sure the setup as a whole was unbalanced in favor of the mafia. It's a real problem in this kind of setup, though, that IF the mafia do well, they're going to do very well, and IF the mafia do badly, they're going to do even worse because they can't use as many switches.

The SK didn't have cop or single NK immunity, did he? Giving him those will 1) let him live longer and 2) give him more incentive to prevent cop/vig switching.

edit: also, lynching two innocents in a row is a better than average result for a 3-player mafia in a 10/8-player town, especially given that some townies could save themselves through power role claims. Usually you'd expect the town to hit one scum on the first two days; then the game is open again.
I don't really see any reason for the SK to let the town power roles do anything during night 1. Perhaps later, but again only in certain narrow circumstances. In any case, the town should not have to rely too heavily on the SK; if the town manages to lynch the SK on day 1 it shouldn't cause a town loss, that's just silly.

The scum played well, of course, and also had some lucky breaks, but even before the game started I was thinking that it was unbalanced. Basically, for purposes of balancing, I would consider the town as having nearly no power roles at all, which means the ratio of town/nontown should be much higher, more like the 20% scum/80% town ratio in vanillia mafia instead of the 25%scum/8%Sk/66% town ratio we had in this game.

Basically, I'd suggest that we add in about 3 more vanillia townies, which should both increase the town's odds and decrease the chances of one random nightkill throwing the balance off, and perhaps give the SK one-shot nightkill immunity to compensate.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:43 am

Post by spectrumvoid »

Here are my 2 cents worth (literally 2 cents since I'm too newbie to really know how balancing works):

I played in open 5 (scum.) It's weird because I'm pretty sure town was hoping SK would live, which is just totally weird.

I also agree that it's a win-all or lose-all situation. I'm not sure about the modification that allows scum to kill every night, regardless of whether they use their switches or not. That way, I think it overpowers scum. If scum had lost the doc-switch scum, had 2 left, they at least had to choose between the cop and the vig. It's a pretty hard choice, and I think it helps the town. Then again, losing scum is good for town. How about keeping that rule, but modify it to when we have only 1 scum left, the remaining scum can kill and use the switch?

I'd say adding more townies would help, simply because there's lesser chance of scum hitting a power role.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:28 am

Post by Lowell »

I have a question about the "dethy"

If 1 mafia there are 4 "cops", sane, insane, naive, paranoid, isn't that the same as having 4 vanilla townies? Half will be wrong and half will be right?
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:50 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

No, because they'll get multiple results. The trick becomes figuring out who has which sanity.

However, what is true, and what I think you're getting at, is that "Guilty" and "Innocent" no longer mean anything as a result of the symmetry. In fact, one could replace them with "Ketchup" and "Cinnamon" and it wouldn't change the setup at all.
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:57 am

Post by mith »

I am so very tempted to make a cop role that gets "Ketchup" and "Cinnamon" now.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:02 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

I already did one with "Salsa" and "No salsa" in Wigu Mafia. 8)

(He did know what each meant, admittedly, but it also made flavoursense and he was only kinda sane.)
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:08 am

Post by Fiasco »

nominate: Kingmaker Mini Open (13 players)
:

2 mafia
10 townies
1 kingmaker (chooses king each day; king decides on execution; if kingmaker dies, random townie becomes kingmaker)
day start

nominate: Jurymaker Mini Open (13 players)
:

see Kingmaker Mini Open, except the Jurymaker chooses three Jury Members whose majority vote determines the lynch
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:26 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

nominate Consulmaker Mini Open (12 players):


2 mafia
9 townies
1 consulmaker(chooses 2 consuls each day; consuls decide on execution; both have absolute veto power; chooses a dictator at 3 players left instead; if consulmaker dies, random townie becomes consulmaker.)

Fiasco, why 13 players?
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:05 am

Post by Fiasco »

Because it's an odd number, which is fairer on the town in the endgame. Jurymaker needs a dictator rule for the endgame, too.
consulmaker
heh; I assume that after a veto they could choose a new target rather than going to night with no lynch? IOW the execution happens only at two votes?

How about
Bombmaker Mafia
-- same as Kingmaker Mini Open, except the Bombmaker makes a bomb each night, gives it a setting between 1 and 5, and gives the bomb to a player (in secret); that player can then give the bomb to another player (in public), decreasing the setting by 1; when the setting is at 0, the bomb explodes? I'm guessing the bombmaker would claim and the game would reduce to ordinary Kingmaker, but maybe that can be fixed somehow.
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:44 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

Fiasco wrote:heh; I assume that after a veto they could choose a new target rather than going to night with no lynch? IOW the execution happens only at two votes?
Yes.

I'll keep my setup at 12 players because I'd expect there to be a no lynch at some point.
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:56 am

Post by Fiasco »

14 might be fairer, but I guess it doesn't matter much.

Accuser Mafia: as Kingmaker Mini Open, except instead of a Kingmaker there's an Accuser who selects three other players every night; in day, there's a normal majority vote to lynch one of the three Accused.

Parliament Mafia: as Kingmaker Mini Open, but with no Kingmaker, and with a nomination phase as in Verbose; top 3 nominees then vote on a lynch. I guess in practice this would be the same as normal voting. Maybe the same Parliament should stay in place for 2 days, or maybe only 1 member can be replaced on each day.

Reverse Accuser Mafia: as KMO, with a Kingmaker, but with a nomination phase as in Verbose; King can execute one of the top three nominees
Last edited by Fiasco on Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:05 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

I think any game with more than 9 players but just 2 scum runs the risk of being really boring and frustrating when one of the scum gets lynched D1.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:18 am

Post by Fiasco »

That's 1) pretty rare and 2) to some extent true of every game.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

Fiasco wrote:That's 1) pretty rare and 2) to some extent true of every game.
1) Sure it's rare (though it only takes one awful scum player), but when it happens it's bad. If you didn't get a lot of info prior to killing the first scum, you spend the rest of the game hunting an SK.
2) I don't know about that. If you have three scum, and lynch a scum D1, you still have a game, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:55 am

Post by Fiasco »

Kelly Chen wrote:1) Sure it's rare (though it only takes one awful scum player), but when it happens it's bad. If you didn't get a lot of info prior to killing the first scum, you spend the rest of the game hunting an SK.
(shrug) If it's 13p, then in the worst possible case you spend 5 days hunting an SK. Those days should go by pretty quickly, and there shouldn't need to be any nights (force scum to presend kills). If those 5 days take very long (more than, say, 2-3 weeks), it's a mod/player failure.
2) I don't know about that. If you have three scum, and lynch a scum D1, you still have a game, as far as I'm concerned.
And then maybe on D4 another scum dies, and you're in the same situation (assuming there are no cops/vigs, so I should have said "all games without cops/vigs"). Though it's true that you have more information then.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:28 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Kelly Chen wrote:I think any game with more than 9 players but just 2 scum runs the risk of being really boring and frustrating when one of the scum gets lynched D1.
Not neceserally. The was a game early on here where there was a 10 person game with just 1 bad guy, a SK (IS), and he won.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:34 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

Yosarian2 wrote:Not neceserally. The was a game early on here where there was a 10 person game with just 1 bad guy, a SK (IS), and he won.
That doesn't mean it wasn't boring or frustating, now does it? If there's only one scum, it becomes a lottery to some extent, because you don't have the mafia interaction to base things off.
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:39 am

Post by Fiasco »

I'm not sure, but I tend to think individual scum tells are a more important source of information than mafia-mafia interactions anyway.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:41 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:Not neceserally. The was a game early on here where there was a 10 person game with just 1 bad guy, a SK (IS), and he won.
That doesn't mean it wasn't boring or frustating, now does it? If there's only one scum, it becomes a lottery to some extent, because you don't have the mafia interaction to base things off.
(shrug) Well if there's a scum group of two people, and one of them gets lynched day 1, then you do have some mafia interactions to base things off of. But no, reading the game, I don't think it was boring or frustrating.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:22 am

Post by Kelly Chen »

You three saw, but my 4th open setup Jungle Republic mini 392 just ended. I think the setup was fairer, but didn't get down to as few people, as my 2nd open setup Too Much Scum mini 330.

In 330, the three non-killing mafia were slaughtered (one crosskill, two successful cop investigations employed without the cop coming out), and the second wolf made it to a three-man endgame before being lynched. A freaky unexpected lyncher win, too.

In 392, the three non-killing mafia won at 6 alive, flawless victory. The town in general was not too good (basically two lynches were just thrown away). One wolf survived to this point, and the other got lynched D2 due to a seer investigation (thumb-up town, thumb-down wolf, though the seer did have to come out for this).
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:57 am

Post by Zindaras »

I feel that both setups are interesting and worth running again. I can only speak from experience, but 392 did seem to drag a bit in the end, mainly because no one was getting abducted anymore. The clause you put in Too Much Scum, that the non-killing scum would be able to kill after the killing scum are dead. This also dissuades the non-killing scum from lurking too much, because the Islamists could easily have done that in 392.
Show
Finished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:36 am

Post by Simenon »

IH wrote:I've been playing some IRC mafia, and one fun setup is SS3.

3 player mafia.
1 Mafioso(goon)
1 Townie
1 Super Saint(Vengeful townie. Hammah voter is killed.)
I really want to play this.

Also:
Faction mafia
2 Fanatics (win when both townies are dead). They don't know their partner
2 Townies (win when both fanatics are dead). They don't know their partner.
1 Merchant (wins when one townie and one fanatic are dead).
1 Reaper (wins when the merchant, a townie, and a faction are dead. However, he has a nightkill.)

I know this was done on wifom, but I don't know if it has been suggested here.

Axis v. Allies Mafia
America (Ally): Wins if two of Germany, Japan, and Russia fall.

Britain (Ally): Wins either if Germany and Japan fall, or if France and Germany fall and Italy survives.

France (Ally): Wins if Germany and Italy fall.

Germany (Axis): Wins if two of Britain, France, and Russia fall.

Italy (Axis): Wins either if America and Britain fall, or if Britain and Germany fall and America survives.

Japan (Axis): Wins if America and Russia fall.

Russia (Pseudo-Ally): Wins as long as Russia remains

The game is played in a "Day-Night" format, starting in Day. Each Day, the nations vote on which nation should fall. Each Night, the Axis powers each place a vote on which nation should fall, and if a nation received two votes, that nation falls. A fallen nation can still win if its win conditions are met (Russia obviously cannot win this way). The game ends when only one surviving nation has its win conditions not met. No nation knows the identity of any of the other nations.
Faction 12 Mafia:
3 Fanatics(Win if all Townspeople are dead and have a greater number of people living then the Mafia)
3 Townspeople(Same as above, except they want all Fanatics dead)
3 Mafia(Same old vanilla scumgroup, wins when everybody else is dead)
1 Cop(Wins when all Mafia are dead)
1 Merchant(Neutral Survivor who can only win with the Fanatics or Townspeople. Can also only win when 1x Townsperson, 1x Fanatic and the Cop are dead)
1 Anarchist(Roleswitcher, cannot change roles with the Mafia)
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:48 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Mith: Just so you know, I think the "near-vanillia" setup I suggest has been nominated by 4 people now; I got 2 new votes back on page 8.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:14 am

Post by mith »

Ok, thanks, it'll probably be next up then.

I'm going to work on getting some of the proposed setups moved over to the wiki sometime soon, so I'll count nominations (and possibly modify things a bit to make it run more smoothly) then.
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:48 pm

Post by Kelly Chen »

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