Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[Grimgroove]

^^ Sorry, post 226 is where he replies to it.

[Grimgroove]

Damnit, not a good time for a new page :p

[homertve]

I'm not buying his explanation. It sounds like someone who's trying to "cover his crimes".

Grimgroove, I'm already voting for Syryana. I think it's a good time for you to switch your vote to him as well.

[imkingdavid]

Here are my thoughts after reading the game.
Well, this post isn’t as grand or as long as you might expect it to be after reading through 10 pages of posts. However, those 10 pages contained about 3 or 4 main topics discussed and will briefly go over each one now.

Note that I am keeping more extensive notes for myself, but in the interest of space, I am choosing to post only the most important items. I tend to be very thorough some times and would rather not fill the topic with unnecessarily lengthy posts (people in another game I’m in have complained about my posts being too long).

That being said, if you feel I missed something or didn’t understand something and would like me to go back over it, just let me know.

First, the yep vs yes discussion. I find this to be somewhat extraneous. I can see where each side is coming from, though I too equate “yep” with “yes”. All in all, I don’t get any scum vibes from anyone over this. I do notice that it is repeatedly brought back up, which is somewhat fishy. But still, I’ll let it go for now.

Next, the whole “darling” discussion. First, I feel that my predecessor clearly and adequately explained his vote. I’m not sure I necessarily agree with, as others pointed out, voting based on a word used 12 days before the vote, but I can assure you there is no scum motive behind it. I was, however, surprised to see that discussion about it took as long as it did and kept resurfacing so often. As with the other word discussion, the only thing slightly suspect I notice about it is how it keeps being brought up despite being explained.

Discussion then evolves into a debate on whether meta-analysis can be used as a valid scum hunting tactic. I think there are cases when meta can be used effectively, but there are also times when you should take it with a grain of salt because the person may be intentionally changing their meta to prevent meta-analysis. This discussion seems to fizzle out with no real change of opinion on either side that I can see.

Next comes the scum slip discussion, in which Syr points out two posts he thinks contain slips and asks other people to find them. I’m not a big fan of this tactic, to be honest. In a way it could be seen as pulling two random posts and saying that there are scum slips in each one and telling other people to find them for you. In my opinion, it would be significantly more productive to point out the slips and allow the slippers to defend themselves. To note, I don’t actually see the “slip” Candi pointed out as being a slip, and I have yet to find Grim’s supposed slip.

Here are some things I would like to point out specifically relating to scup slippage.

Syryana, you forgot to reply in your eagerness to dismiss my percieved scumslip from Candillan. Also, when it comes to scumslip, the one you pinted out from Candillan is dissappointingly weak. When I think of "scumslip" I think of something scum would say that would incriminate close to 100%. Like a reference to a QT for example. Not something that can be interpreted in any way, or which simply consitutes a choice of formulation. Scumslips are about meaning, not formulation.

Of course you think it's weak. He's your scumbuddy. And what did I forget to reply to?

I also found it a bit weak, as if you were specifically searching for something to jump on. Here are a couple of related points I would like to make:

In my first game on this site I was mafia and I greatly enjoyed blowing up one of the townies’ unfortunate word choice and making it look like he was scum so that we could lynch him. That being said, his ‘scum slip’ was more of a slip than I feel “I was town” is. When I read the post, I read it as simply a statement of fact, that he was town in the other game. I didn’t read it as being mutually exclusive to his role in this game, and I feel like to do so is a bit scummy.

Second, due to the first point, I am hesitant now to actually put any stock into a very minor, if that, scum “slip”. I feel like an actual scum slip would be something more tangible and more definite, rather than just being able to interpret words (that are otherwise innocuous) as a scum tell.

During the early stages of the game, I found myself agreeing with Syr, but following this whole ambiguous scum slip thing, I am finding him somewhat suspect.
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As a side note, I think it’s significantly easier to read responses when they are broken up into separate quotes rather than inserting your own comments into a quote with bold or with a different color. It gets especially confusing when there is already bolded text in the original quote. It is, IMO, more difficult to reply to.
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Final thoughts, this has been a game of Grim, Syr, and Candi, with a side of my predecessor, and Homer. The rest have posted very few and far between. If we could get some more activity out of the rest of the participants,

and by that I mean actual, constructive content

(not just sheeping other people and such), this game would be much more enjoyable and we would increase our chances of lynching scum. We have less than a week and the current level of activity bothers me to no end.
Finally, since I forgot to do this in my other post:
UNVOTE: Grim
VOTE: Syr
(for the scum slip bit, which I’m not too pleased with)

Oh, and I almost forgot. Regarding the whole scum pair thing. That is, regarding looking for pairs of people who could be scum. I disagree with doing this on Day 1. Or really, any time before we have a positive ID one of the scum. Otherwise, you can link two people together early on and then end up with either a mislynch or without lynching the other scum based on faulty assumptions used to link two people before actual information was provided. Does that make sense? I can clarify if I need to.

I know it took me a while longer than I’d have liked to get this posted, but I will be more active now. It always takes the longest to get that initial post up when replacing in. After that, I can go with current discussion instead of having to refer as much to the previous pages in the game.

I still have yet to look at each player up close (so far, all I’ve done is a straight read through chronologically). I plan to do so eventually before deadline, but if you have any specific questions for me, or (as I mentioned) if you feel I missed anything, do let me know.

[imkingdavid]

@mod

- Vote count please, last one was 4 pages ago (page 7).

[Grimgroove]

About the using colors in quotes: something I picked up in another game. They're easier to make and make the walls a little less long, but I see your point of it excluding other people from the discussion by making it harder for them to refer to it. Duly took note of that.

I'd also like to make yet another additional point on Candillan's supposed scumslip.
What everyone is doing, both town and scum, is somehow conveying the message that they're town, in between the lines. Some are more blunt and state it directly, but that would be showing a certain eagerness to show that you're town that is not appreciated by everone.
Fate has it that this happened in this very topic, on the first page. Candillan stated in caps that he's town this time. Syryana changed his RVS vote (let's assume re-RVS) and said Candillan was too eager to show he's town. Granted, it was a possible RVS and therefore not necessarily a serious motivation, but it could be taken as one. I myself don't find the simple statement "I'm town" convincing at all, and in fact think it has a more scummy aura around it.
Anyway, moving to the "scumslip". Candillan said "I was town that game", Syryana would have preferred "I was town that game, too".
Given the RVS argument, I can easily see Syryana use the wording he supposedly preferred against Candillan just as easily, by saying he's too eager in emphasizing he's town in this game.
This wasn't a scumslip. This was simply Candillan not being over-eager to state he's town (for a change).
Given Syryana used both arguments (though yes, once he used it in RVS), it seems like he's betting on any horse that could get Candillan lynched, even if they're running in opposite directions.

[Grimgroove]

Grimgroove, I'm already voting for Syryana. I think it's a good time for you to switch your vote to him as well.

I want to finish my reads list first, but yes, he's a very likely candidate to get my next vote.

UNVOTE:

Seeing how this vote seems to stem from the middle ages by now.

Liking imkingdavid's entry post. Very promising, as is the ancient join date.

[homertve]

I'd also like to make yet another additional point on Candillan's supposed scumslip.
What everyone is doing, both town and scum, is somehow conveying the message that they're town, in between the lines. Some are more blunt and state it directly, but that would be showing a certain eagerness to show that you're town that is not appreciated by everone.
Fate has it that this happened in this very topic, on the first page. Candillan stated in caps that he's town this time. Syryana changed his RVS vote (let's assume re-RVS) and said Candillan was too eager to show he's town. Granted, it was a possible RVS and therefore not necessarily a serious motivation, but it could be taken as one. I myself don't find the simple statement "I'm town" convincing at all, and in fact think it has a more scummy aura around it.
Anyway, moving to the "scumslip". Candillan said "I was town that game", Syryana would have preferred "I was town that game, too".
Given the RVS argument, I can easily see Syryana use the wording he supposedly preferred against Candillan just as easily, by saying he's too eager in emphasizing he's town in this game.
This wasn't a scumslip. This was simply Candillan not being over-eager to state he's town (for a change).
Given Syryana used both arguments (though yes, once he used it in RVS), it seems like he's betting on any horse that could get Candillan lynched, even if they're running in opposite directions.

Very interesting observation.

Liking imkingdavid's entry post.

Me too.

[LnGrrrR]

@LnGrrrR: How do you feel about me thinking you're buddying? What cases have I made so far that were as sensible as the "Title Pending" game that make me lean town for you?

I thought your questioning of Crand was decent, as were some of the comments towards Candy. As noted before, I didn't agree with your yep/yes case. As far as what you think about me buddying you, Im pretty null on it. You can think what you want to think.

[RachMarie]

Sorry all been swamped and still sharing a computer... good news I will have a new computer in a couple of weeks or so ♥

[RachMarie]

really liking david's entrance, feel pretty good about him being town.

[Candillan]

About to finish reading up but
Did David just commit an Amish tell
More later because phone posting whee

[Candillan]

Okay so I was gone for 24 hours and missed a good two pages wow
My prayers for activity were answered! Walls incoming.

[RachMarie]

That is not an Amished tell, he was not saying his pred was scumz, he was disagreeing with something his pred did, and yeah the whole semantics thingy over yes and yep and the darling post were such hair splitting and totally null tells. I will go back in ISO and look at them to see if there is anything more there, but yeah we need to be looking for real tells not just semantics.

[Candillan]

If you buddied me any harder...

Wait, first, this.
It isn't buddying. It's a read. I read you as town. That comes with a lack of suspicion angled your way with an added hint of friendliness for not being scum. Sorry if that doesn't float your boat.


@Grim on a similar topic, it's hard to buddy someone when they aren't here, lol.

Pedit:
But isn't the Amished tell when you condemn one or more of the actions made by your predecessor? Though reading through it, he was just talking about all the discussions thus far, so I guess it's fair.

[RachMarie]

He did not say he thought the action was scummy, just kinda silly.

[RachMarie]

Also he looked beyond it trying to figure out if all the discussion around it and the other word issue might help him find scumz, that comes more likely from a towny PoV than a scummy one.

[Candillan]

Why is it a bad thing to pressure you? If you're town, pressure brings out the town in you. There's no need to be so sensitive to someone trying to pressure you.
Starting from the second sentence you're dismissing what I said with mere hollow phrases but you did not prove that my argument does not make sense. It does. I would not have used the scumtell-approach if I would know for a fact it's not true, because I'd know well enough that there'd be the theoretical possibility it would come bite me in the ass in case I did. It makes absolutely no sense to do this as scum: the risk of it flying back into my face far outweighs the supposed benefit of pressuring someone you know is town based on a false argument. If you know it's a false argument, you know the pressure is not going to ammount to anything. I didn't know it was a false argument, and therefore used it until shown otherwise.

okay so I was looking at this for a good fifteen minutes trying to figure out what I saw in this and I honestly have no idea
though I really do promise I saw something earlier.

[Candillan]

Syryana, do you honestly think Grim and I are a scumteam? That push is quite odd, to be honest. I don't understand how you could see our interactions as being scummy, and your points on this don't make sense to me. You're saying that we're scumbuddies because the way we're acting independently is scummy, and also that the way Grim is interacting with me is scummy. What do you think of the way I interact with Grim?

@Grim, nice find on that scumslip on Syryana.
also @Grim, though Crand left at a rather inconvenient time, I don't think that weighs in on his alignment. As many have said, both Scum and Town flake.


......Wait, we have less than a week left? O_O

@Rach, that's a fine point.

Where's Shaboostein's replacement?

[Syryana]

And the gloves come off. It's about damn time. I'll be breaking my responses into smaller, easier to read posts.

As a general rule, I like to get input from replacements. I don't erase what their predecessor did but I do like to judge the replacement on their own merits.

How does this compute with "I'm not interested in Crand anymore"? (post 229

Wrt 178: He was being anti-town about it, yes. I don't see it as scummy, though. You go after him, he OMGUS' you, then tunnels you thereafter. Seen it happen with newbies before. Hell, I've done it myself.

Why did you think he was scummy, if not that?

Originally the "darling" comment and I found his responses inadequate.

I was interested in fleshing out your thought process. I thought Crand was scummy myself and wanted to know how your reasons matched up with mine. Since I've now found the scumteam, I no longer care.

Your conviction is either has proven to be a powerful tool in the past and you're using it with bad intentions, or I'm afraid we're dealing with a "Caesar".

Caesar indeed. Do elaborate.

Into the arena I go, my emperor.

What is it with people buddying me this game? First Candyland with all his "Syr is so town" stuff and now you with the "Caesar/Emperor" comments.

Do you seriously consider this at buddying? My goodness . I thought the reference is clear. Twice when I've used this symbolism it was referring to your attitude of pitching me against Candillan, just like Caesar would do to his gladiators. You sit there on your tribune and let us sort it out. I'm playing along but don't think I don't notice what you're doing. I don't like these puppetmaster-questions, as the "assignments" you give already show your clear bias.

Ah, you're being insulting. I see. So, I'm Caesar because I'm pitting you and Candillan against each other, is that it? Kindly point out where I'm "playing the puppetmaster". Also, since you apparently find this behavior scummy (you've certainly implied it) why haven't you confronted me about it instead of making snide little comments?

I'll ask more directly: does it make him scummier or townier?

Scummier, mainly because of his 3 numbered points. Now you answer the questions contained therein please. I get the feeling you've been buying an awful lot of time for yourself lately.

I have answered all the questions contained therein in #207. Again with the insinuations.

PS: What's the point of not sharing my scumslip? Why does it give townie points to whoever finds it? Why wouldn't scum be able to find it?

I have proclaimed Candillan to be among my main scumreads before, and I'm sure if you ISO me you'll find reasons why I did (in attendance of my full reads list). Why then proceed later on to claim I'm dismissing arguments against Candillan simply because they're directed against him (cfr. his scumslip).

A thing that strikes me as very odd, and this is directed to both Ravenpaw and Candillan: what happened to your buddying? I've seen close to none of it this game.

I'm not sharing your scumslip because I want to see if anyone else finds it. Besides, watching you squirm makes me giggle.

Squirming? Misrep.

No, interpretation.

[Syryana]

Other priorities. You can only have one vote on one person at a time. Are you saying that when you have your vote against someone, you don't have any arguments against anyone else? That you don't bother to make comments about them? Even if I didn't vote, I'd like to think my comments on Candillan helped other people to think about him in a scummy light. What do you think of the references I did make? Did they sound insincere by themselves, or just because there was no vote accompanying them.

This is important, so it gets its own quote. You have misrepped what I said. My point was not that you never had a Candillan scumread, or that you cannot have more than one read/argument/whatever at a time. I said that of your scumreads, Candillan is the one you have pushed the least. In your 60+ post ISO, you have four posts indicating a scumread on his slot: your agreement with LnGrrrR's case (#108), your ISO of Candillan (#112), your response to Candillan's response (#152), and the post where you call Candillan one of your top three scumreads (#173).

My point here is, though you have made a few mentions of what you find scummy in Candillan, you have made no move to push his wagon or pursue that read. It is especially noticeable when Candillan makes what is (in my opinion) the scummiest post in the game, #199, you don't even glance at it twice, instead concentrating on me pretty much to exclusion of all else until I directly ask you to look at it. That's why I feel your scumread on Candillan is not genuine.

[RachMarie]

yeah its hard for me to get a good peg on everyone with peeps like shaboo and now his replacement dont post at all...

[Syryana]

I'd also like to make yet another additional point on Candillan's supposed scumslip.
What everyone is doing, both town and scum, is somehow conveying the message that they're town, in between the lines. Some are more blunt and state it directly, but that would be showing a certain eagerness to show that you're town that is not appreciated by everone.
Fate has it that this happened in this very topic, on the first page. Candillan stated in caps that he's town this time. Syryana changed his RVS vote (let's assume re-RVS) and said Candillan was too eager to show he's town. Granted, it was a possible RVS and therefore not necessarily a serious motivation, but it could be taken as one. I myself don't find the simple statement "I'm town" convincing at all, and in fact think it has a more scummy aura around it.
Anyway, moving to the "scumslip". Candillan said "I was town that game", Syryana would have preferred "I was town that game, too".
Given the RVS argument, I can easily see Syryana use the wording he supposedly preferred against Candillan just as easily, by saying he's too eager in emphasizing he's town in this game.
This wasn't a scumslip. This was simply Candillan not being over-eager to state he's town (for a change).
Given Syryana used both arguments (though yes, once he used it in RVS), it seems like he's betting on any horse that could get Candillan lynched, even if they're running in opposite directions.

And yet you do not find it odd, given Candillan's eagerness to show himself town in both this game and the prior, that he simply stops doing so in that post? Given his state of mind at the time (I believe he admitted a couple of posts later that he hadn't slept in 48 hours, the madman) do you find it feasible that he suddenly stops playing what seems to be his normal game and directly implies he is not town?

[Syryana]

It isn't buddying. It's a read. I read you as town. That comes with a lack of suspicion angled your way with an added hint of friendliness for not being scum. Sorry if that doesn't float your boat.

If it was just a hint it wouldn't bug me so much. I'll dig through your ISO for examples in a minute.

[Syryana]

Syryana, do you honestly think Grim and I are a scumteam? That push is quite odd, to be honest. I don't understand how you could see our interactions as being scummy, and your points on this don't make sense to me. You're saying that we're scumbuddies because the way we're acting independently is scummy, and also that the way Grim is interacting with me is scummy. What do you think of the way I interact with Grim?

I think many of you are operating under a chicken and egg misinterpretation here. I am not calling you and Grim a scumteam due to associative tells (indicators the two of you are a team). I am saying that you made a scumslip and Grim made a scumslip. Since there are only two scum team members, that means that since you scumslipped and he scumslipped, you must be a team together. Looking at the interactions between the two of you this game, I find the idea plausible. I have not at any point pushed the idea that the interactions between the two of you are scummy, merely that they do not show you aren't.