Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Glork]

I could accept a CTD execution in the event that MoS is not executed.


MoS, do you plan on finishing that analysis soon? You wouldn't want to let us down like Pooky did, now would you?

[spectrumvoid]

Response to RafK:

1) Like what you mentioned, I attacked box in my first few posts. That was an attempt to stir up activity. I don't get what you mean by rampant labelling here. It is true that playing on emotion + claiming when not under pressure + giving up are scum tells. And it's undeniable that box did make those scum tells. Are you saying we shouldn't accuse people when they exhibit scum tells?

2) You claim that my next few posts didn't go anywhere, but you appear to be ignoring that fact that I did mention Phoebus in my next few posts even though you mentioned it. So your accusation of me barning pj regarding phoebus doesn't stand. Regarding the rest, I was affected by another game I was playing at that time, when pj pulled off something really awesome. I can't remember specifics now since it was pretty long ago, but if anyone wants I'll try to dig it up.

3) About kingmaker strategy (the MBL bit): You missed the section where I clarified that I considered myself too inexperienced to discuss strategy. I also said that because I wasn't sure how the kingmaker strategy should be, I went to look through kingmaker I.

4) My point was and is completely valid. There was a large proportion of lurkers at that time in the thread. You quoted 455. If you'd looked down a little to 457, you'll noticed that pablito verified this by saying of ALL the lurkers. Wouldn't you naturally be suspicious of someone who went after a specific lurker? (as a side-note, that's exactly what I did as scum in mini 7 samurai mafia, and we won even after the victim claimed cop.)

I'm not accusing you of misrepresentation, because I don't think you were intentionally trying to do so, I think you missed the contexts of my comments. It's difficult to read isolation posts, hence why you might have missed some stuff that I point out above.

I mentioned this in my earlier post. Dear kingy, I thought you were going to give us a list of questions as homework?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I could accept a CTD execution in the event that MoS is not executed.


MoS, do you plan on finishing that analysis soon? You wouldn't want to let us down like Pooky did, now would you?

If/When I have time. I hardly care about this game more than RL issues, and I have a lot more of those.

[Dead Rikimaru]

Hi,
I had a busy week at work, had to work overtime everyday and was too tired to follow my games.
It's a pity since I think I have a good strategy for this game and it may be my only chance to use it but I don't know if I will have to alter it due to the lost time.
I will be catching up now and will soon follow with my last pre-loe set of questions (need to check what the players have been posting and my personal notes).
I would like though to say this:

I am against a player posting an analysis of ALL other players.

Why?
Townies just need to know one thing: Who should be lynched.
Scum needs to know two things: The scummiest protown players to be setup and the least scummy to be nightkilled.

Every time we analyze player by player we end up pointing who we suspect more, who we suspect less and who we do not suspect at all. By doing this we helping scum to plan ahead and choose who they may frame later and who they will kill in the next nights.

That's one of the reasons (the other reasons to be explained when I get all the information I need) why I ask that you point only

YOUR TOP3 SUSPECTS

. I think we should let scum try to tell the least suspected(who may be lynched in the futre) from the not suspected at all (who will probably not be lynched).
In Himalayan I was surprised how people that i suspected (Thesp and Pooky) were nightkilled early while people I didn't suspect at all (Fritzler and Yosarian) lived until late in the game, again I'm not a fan of sharing information. I generally attack the players I suspect more and only defend a player I trust if he/she is in danger of being lynched.

Btw, before I make today's execution you will have my opinion on every player in and out the execution list. It may sound as a contradiction but the king is a special case.

Now people who have not elected their top3 please hurry.
We need to proceed to the next step.

[olio]

Townies just need to know one thing: Who should be lynched.

Even if you mean Kingmaker -setup only, that still doesn't sound right to me. Townies should also know why somebody was lynched, and preferably who was against and who was for that lynch. Today's townie might be tomorrow's king and that info will come then helpful for them.

Also, how do you suggest townies will get their top3 suspect lists if they don't have connection info between people? By gut?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Once he shares his List of Execution, olio, we can always discuss those specific people, so we'll know why somebody got lynched and who was for it and who was against it.

Top 3 suspects:
CrashTextDummie, for ignoring Fritzler and defending Pooky somewhat.
Phoebus, lurkerscum.
LuckayLuck, for blindly defending experienced players.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

T3:
Pablito, for his odd behaviour day 1 and continues following of Glork.
Der Hammer, lurker and possibly scum.
Phoebus, lurker and possibly scum.

So yeah, I bassicly want to get Pablito executed. I've listed the other two because I think there aren't any convincing scumplayers and rather see lurkers dead at the moment then active players.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I won't have a top 3 until I finishing doing the analysis of everyone, but right now Dead Rikimaru is one of my top 3

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Good for you, MoS. You show the Man.

[RafK]

At this stage I'm really only confident in offering SV and perhaps Pablito. That's the closest to a top 3 I can offer.

Happily, the game from which my new avatar was taken has now finished, and my time for analysis here increased. I should get around to part 2 of SV by Friday.

[spectrumvoid]

RafK: Have you read my responses yet?

My top: I can see a MoS execution. I've explained why somewhere about him giving up, and I buy Glork's reasons, now that I think Glork is town.

My 2: CTD. Reason being he's been under fire, he promised to post nearly a week ago, and he's done little to defend himself. Because I like the reasons laid against him, and he hasn't responded to my satisfaction, he's on my list.

And like before, lurkers. I know there are differences between the lurkers, but I'll support the lynch of lurkers. Reason: Who would you rather see at endgame, a lurker, or a poster?

[pablito]

mod

a prod on LuckayLuck, please?

I'm just itching to reply to Glork and RafK and I'd rather not before LL does.

[Zindaras]

I'm finally getting around to reading this game again. I hope to have have caught up to it by this weekend.

[petroleumjelly]

It feels like I am saying the same thing in all of my games lately.

CTD has not been posting on the Mafia Scum site in general. He has just been replaced in Lights Out Mafia. I am fairly sure the fact that he has not been posting lately is

not

an indicator of his alignment. As I think just typed elsewhere:

He may well be scum, but not for that reason.

[petroleumjelly]

Mod

, can we get prods on the following (don't recall if somebody has done this recently):

1.) CTD: Last two posts on Jan. 18 and Dec. 20
2.) Der Hammer: Last two posts on Jan. 11 and Dec. 6
3.) LuckayLuck: Last two posts on Jan. 12 and Jan. 12
4.) Nightfall: Dec. 16 (does he even know he is

in

this game?)
5.) Nightson: Last two posts Jan. 10 and Jan. 3

And also, would you please change the first post to show that RafK has replaced Mert?

[Yosarian2]

So, we're bascially just waiting to hear the top 3 suspects from everyone else, and especally to hear what MOS has to say, right?

Who hasn't given their 3 names yet?

And also, if/when MOS does give an analysis of some type, I want to hear a specific answer to this question:

And are you still confident Phoebus is protown?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I skipped Glork, pablito, PJ, Yosarian2, and Zindaras, since they have a crapload of posts. Here's everyone else.

KaleiDoscope (Replacing Bird):

Day 2 -
- Suspicious of CDB and PJ, notes Pab/Glork connection and MoS trusting people early
- Suspicious of Pablito, CDB, and Pooky (and votes them), also somewhat suspicious of Fritz, Phoebus, and PJ (Gives reasoning)
- Undecided about LuckayLuck, thinks Glork's play is a little off, thinks MBL is town, also thinks Zindaras is town
- Unvotes CDB when Lowell replaces him
Day 3 -
- Votes Pablito
- Not convinced that MoS is scum yet, interested in MoS's replies
- Suspicious of Yos
- Not happy about MoS bandwagon
- Top 3: Pablito, Der Hammer, Phoebus

Result: I'm not seeing Kscope as particularly town or scum right now (OMG he placed him in his neutral category, scumbuddies LOLOLOL!). He has come a long way from Bird's behavior, but I would like to know what he thinks of Fritzler and PJ still. He named them on his suspicions list yesterday but hasn't touched them since, contenting with ONLY a Pablito vote until asked to give 3 suspects.

Lowell (Replacing CDB):

Day 2 -
- Declares Zindaras as most protown player so far, also MBL is high up there. Lists CTD as well. Phoebus and MoS considered protown, insinuates that MoS has attempted to become King. No opinion of Nightson or Pooky, neutral towards SV, neutralish towards PJ. Votes Yos, Pablito, and LuckayLuck with reasoning.
- Comes up with a plan to have the Kingmaker out themselves every day and act as proxy to the King, guaranteeing a protown executioner.
- Comes up with a plan to have everyone make a List of Good Kings for the Kingmaker to get ideas from.
- Wants to know how Glork narrowed his list to Yos and Pooky. Declares Kscope protown.
Day 3 -
- Confused as to choice of new King
- Asks King to help pressure the lurkers
- Thinks Glork is town (with reasoning)
- Votes SV and MoS, SV for freudian slip and MoS for recent efforts not seeming protownish. Thinks Rafk is town
- Votes CTD

Result: I'm getting a protown feel from Lowell. He's getting involved and presenting his own arguments for his suspicions. He also came up with two good plans that I didn't see before and apparently didn't get a lot of discussion. I see no reason why we shouldn't use the plans Lowell came up with. We need to implement them now, especially after we got a scummy person as king (Dead Rik). The Kingmaker could use input and reasoning as to who would make a good king.

Mert:

Day 1 -
- Votes CDB
- Speculates about good strategy for forming an LoE
- Votes MoS and Bird for their voting patterns
- Disagrees that parallels between CDB and RA from KM 1 point to CDB being town
- Votes Phoebus for not being helpful, unvotes MoS for being more vocal
- Wonders why pablito is acting so strange intentionally
Day 2 -
- Votes Twomz and Pooky for the nutkicking theory (supporting it)
- Asks for replacement

Results: Generally protownish feeling, nothing strong. He needs to be replaced.

Nightfall (Replacing UberTimmy):

Day 2 -
- 1 post, Dec. 16th.

Results: He needs to be replaced.

Nightson:

Day 1 -
- Votes pablito and phoebus, thinks cdb is town
- Defends reasoning for his votes
Day 2 -
- Votes Twomz for stuff lost in crash
- Thinks MBL, Glork, and PJ are town, not sure about Pablito
- Unvotes, has a problem with a Yos execution
- Votes pablito and MBL (for logical fallacies)
- Will reread (Dec 5)
- Will reread (Jan 3)
- Will reread (Jan 10)

Result: Needs to be replaced.

Olio:

Day 2 -
- Votes pablito, LuckayLuck, and Nightson
- Asks pablito why he voted him
Day 3 -
- Top 3 suspects: pablito, LuckayLuck, Nightson; SV and MoS are contenders for T3
- Votes MoS for changing his mind without explanations
- Thinks townies need to know why someone was lynched, not just who should be lynched.

Results: I'm neutral to Olio. He's done more than this, I just wrote what stood out to me. He hasn't done anything scummy.

Phoebus:

Day 1 -
- Votes MBL, CDB, and pablito
- Votes mert
- Gives reason for votes as joining bandwagons after reading
Day 2 -
- Doesn't like bird's opening post, votes Bird
- Votes pablito and Yosarian, gut reasoning
- Said he would be more active Day 3

Results: I believe he asked for replacement, but I feel that he was being genuine in his posts. I will have to see how his replacement does.

Samus:

Day 2 -
- Single post (Dec 16)

Results: He needs to be replaced, NOW

[olio]

Fair enough. I'm satisfied at the moment.

unvote: MoS

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

KaleiDoscope (Replacing Bird):

Day 2 -
- Suspicious of CDB and PJ, notes Pab/Glork connection and MoS trusting people early
- Suspicious of Pablito, CDB, and Pooky (and votes them), also somewhat suspicious of Fritz, Phoebus, and PJ (Gives reasoning)
- Undecided about LuckayLuck, thinks Glork's play is a little off, thinks MBL is town, also thinks Zindaras is town
- Unvotes CDB when Lowell replaces him
Day 3 -
- Votes Pablito
- Not convinced that MoS is scum yet, interested in MoS's replies
- Suspicious of Yos
- Not happy about MoS bandwagon
- Top 3: Pablito, Der Hammer, Phoebus

Result: I'm not seeing Kscope as particularly town or scum right now (OMG he placed him in his neutral category, scumbuddies LOLOLOL!). He has come a long way from Bird's behavior, but I would like to know what he thinks of Fritzler and PJ still. He named them on his suspicions list yesterday but hasn't touched them since, contenting with ONLY a Pablito vote until asked to give 3 suspects.

OMG HE'S ONTO ME >___>

I'm not quite convinced of their townness of both of them. PJ hasn't made a move today that made me convinced that he is scum just yet. I found his day 1 behaviour very unpleasant, as I noted, but further play of him doesn't made me convinced that he's the right play for today. This doesn't mean i'm not suspecting him anymore though, just less.

I can't really say anything about Fritz... I find his behaviour odd but I heard he usually plays this way. I can say I've got a tough read on him, but his actions haven't shown obvious "I wan't to lead the town the wrong way". I guess Fritz is just being Fritz... =/

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Samus:

Day 2 -
- Single post (Dec 16)

Results: He needs to be replaced, NOW

hi

[spectrumvoid]

Olio: Just curious, but is the sole reason for your unvote MoS's player analysis? (Don't answer if you're not olio.)

MoS: Did you miss the part in the king's post asking us not to post player analysis?

[Dead Rikimaru]

Townies just need to know one thing: Who should be lynched.

Even if you mean Kingmaker -setup only, that still doesn't sound right to me. Townies should also know why somebody was lynched, and preferably who was against and who was for that lynch. Today's townie might be tomorrow's king and that info will come then helpful for them.

Also, how do you suggest townies will get their top3 suspect lists if they don't have connection info between people? By gut?

Olio, I Don't want , in any way, that conversation be restricted to the top3.
If you think a, b and c are scum; feel free to accuse them and provide your reasoning.
If you want to clarify x, y and z's points; feel free to question them and call them out on what you have seen.
What I don't like about player-by-player lists is that if you really think 1, 2 and 3 are pro-town, and enough people agree with you, you are drawing a target in their back.
This bit of information is, in my opinion, much more helpful to scum. Scum can simply put their partners in various levels of suspcion and base their nightkills on the input of the real townies.

A Top3 list implies more commitment.
In this game votes mean little and people vote and unvote at will with little effect. People vote to make people participate, people vote all lurkers, people vote jokingly.
I think the top3 record will draw a more accurate map of where each player stands by showing who they actually would like (or wouldn't mind) to see executed.

Also, the top3 is not a poll to elect who should be on my loe.
I will take full responsibility on the choice of each loe member. And you will know why they are there.

[Dead Rikimaru]

MoS: Did you miss the part in the king's post asking us not to post player analysis?

He didn't miss it.
He disagrees with it.

[Dead Rikimaru]

Here are the top3s so far.
I think this step is too slow.
Will the missing people still post their lists? There are lots of questions i'd like to make but I don't would like to have this finished first.
I will probably wait until the weekend, but maybe the lack of a top3 will say enough about where those people stand.

CrashTextDummie

???

Der Hammer (rep. Vaughn)

???

Fritzler

yosarian, spectrumvoid and scope - no reason

Glork

Mos, Yosarian and Nightson - MoS and Yosarian are not scum together

KaleiÐoscøpe (rep. bird1111)

Pablito, for his odd behaviour day 1 and continues following of Glork.
Der Hammer, lurker and possibly scum.
Phoebus, lurker and possibly scum.

Lowell (rep. cardb0ardb0x)

???

LuckayLuck (rep. Ameliaslay)

Rafk(Mert), olio(stallingchamp) and Nightfall (Ubertimmy) - Because they didn't give enough reason not to be lynched.

Mastermind of Sin

???

RafK (rep. Mert)

spectrumvoid and maybe pablito

Nightfall (rep. UberTimmy)

???

Nightson (rep. Vikingfan)

???

Olio (rep. StallingChamp / ChannelDelibird)

pablito, LuckayLuck and Nightson - with "the same" reasons

pablito

Mert- For talking a lot about crazy voting patterns and avoiding to adress MoS
olio - Because he though ChannelDelibird extremely scummy and olio came into the game and attacked him out of the bat.
LuckayLuck- For shifting thoughts about Pooky while he was about to be executed.

petroleumjelly

spectrumvoid- for trting to make pairs out of yosarian/glork and MoS/LL
Phoebus- explained before???
any lurker

Phoebus

???

Samus (rep. Samus / Twomz)

CrashTextDummie - for ignoring Fritzler and defending Pooky somewhat.
Phoebus- for lurking.
LuckayLuck- for blindly defending experienced players.

spectrumvoid

MoS- For giving up
CTD - For doing little to defend himself
any lurker, no specific reason

Yosarian2

Twomz replacement- for pushing bird's wagon along with pooky
Phoebus- for lurking and giving excuses not to participate
MoS - for defending pooky and asking a few more days for him

Zindaras (rep. Pariah / Machiavellian-Mafia)

Yosarian, spectrumvoid and Phoebus - promises to elaborate in the future

[spectrumvoid]

Edit: I did mention somewhere that I'm having MoS not just for giving up, but for Glork's reasons which I didn't want to repeat. Here's the list:
- Giving up.
- For not explaining anything.
- For flip-flopping, ie, for repeatedly throwing out new ideas without explanation, and without considering his previous ones.
- For evading answers.

I'd also like to clarify that MoS posting his player analysis now doesn't explain away his not doing so in the past, and his evasiveness in the past. Only after Glork made that blatently obvious did he do something.

I'd also like to add that I think Glork isn't scum.

I'm removing CTD from the list, because I did a quick check to affirm that he's disappeared.