In post 112, Grimgroove wrote:So I IC'd Candillan for today, the most active player in ammount of posts, so he gives you most to work with. Only thing I'll be able to do before the weekend I'm afraid. All in all I'd have to agree with LnGrrrR's case against him. Maybe not in LnGrrrR's first post, which was mainly a good thing because it showed more involvement from LnGrrrR again, but in the discussion following it he raised some good points. What I mainly don't like is that Candillan refuses any meta-arguments to be used again him, but in a devious way tries to use that meta to his advantage several times (which I'll try to show here). Claiming you consciously play differently every game so that your meta is useless is actually a meta-argument in itself. MAybe I should clarify further, but I think claiming you have "no meta", is making a statement about your meta and trying to use it as an argument in your advantage. I find it worrysome that Candillan is so involved with his meta, definitely for someone who claims to not have one.
I adressed this in my previous post. My meta is anti-meta, as I am consciously playing differently every game. Relying on meta won't be helpful, and I won't take it seriously. I used myself as an example, but I believe that meta arguments in general are total garbage.
In post 29, Candillan wrote:I agree that it's kinda odd that he would bring that up of all things, but that's the only time, if I recall correctly, that Raven ever adressed Crand.
I do agree with Syryana that your vote on him did seem fairly opportunistic, though.
Also, that's not jumping to his defense, that's simply stating a fact. There's a difference.
What is the "if I recall correctly"-bit supposed to mean? How would you recall something like that? Granted, there wasn't much activity going on in "Title Pending", but to assume you remember all people's interactions seems strange, and pretending to do so seems unnaturally thoughtful.
...What? I don't recall those two ever talking to each other. I didn't say I remember all people's interactions, and I wouldn't say so. I just don't recall them ever interacting aside from that one post.
Could you give me an example of when re-RVSing would not be fine?
Nope, I can't think of any.
In post 57, Candillan wrote:The Great Shaboostein...
That has a nice ring to it.
I'd give you more slack if you hadn't posted in the QT rather than here. >_>
How have you not gave Shaboostein a lot of slack? all you did was call his name a couple of times. Careful bussing?
I also adressed this in my last post. It isn't bussing, it's giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not gonna go super-offensive on him when he says that he's gonna post. I'm giving him air to breathe. It's a friendly game, either way. Why am I not allowed to be friendly with other players?
I called his name the last time to point out the fact that he //still// hadn't posted. He said he was going to do so later that day, and I think it's been two days later.
In post 85, Candillan wrote:
Bahahahahahahano
The truth is that I have an aura of scumminess around me that makes me an easy wagon for scum to hop on and town to follow.
Meanwhile, you're commenting on my meta when I told you that I hate meta arguments. You're speaking in hypotheticals as to what I'd do, and I don't like that.
For the record, I am assembling reads. I currently read you and Crand as scummy.
Your push on me based on a meta argument doesn't make sense. Also, that isn't my scum meta, if you were to look at the last game. I don't like your case, and it seems as if you're pushing on me to make yourself seem active.
I'm not so vote-happy because then it gives my votes less impact when they're actually laid down. I'm not afraid of putting someone to L-2 or whatever, that was purely coincidence.
All in all, this case is bad, and you should feel bad.
VOTE: LnGrrrR
Other posts coming in a minute.
Surprised nobody called him out on this before, but isn't this the most blatant OMGUS in the game(s) so far? LnGrrrR had never even been mentioned by Candillan before this, and now he's suddenly on his scum-reads, based on LngRrrR using meta for a case. Coming out of a game with all of us in it that got cancelled, I think it's only natural to do so. Syryana did the same with me, I did the same with LnGrrrR. Yet Syryana is Candillan's town read.
Yeah, it's OMGUS. Sue me. My posting was for pressure, as everything else I've been doing has been. Reaction testing is a powerful thing, Grim. It helps you assemble reads.
I am seriously trying to gather reads, but I've been terrible at it this time around. I do seriously see Homer and Syryana as townie, though. I was leaning town on you, but your jumping on this case is making me doubt that somewhat. It seems a wee bit too convenient.
Also, if you really saw this as being so scummy, why aren't you voting me?
Urgh. I like a good laugh, but people blaming having said weird things on "joking" are always scummy in my book.
Okay.
Crand took my vote seriously because I wasn't known to do that often, and therefore likely assumed it was a serious vote. (which is was, but not because it was an actual scum accusation. It was for pressure. I saw a good opportunity, and I took it.)
"I wasn't known to do that often" = meta-argument. And to be perfectly honest, I never associated you with someone who doesn't like voting or changing votes all the time. Anyway, I don't like the argument in the quote above, hard to put my finger on it but the logical conclusion that Crandaja took your vote seriously (did he?) because of your meta (did he?) doesn't really add up. And even if it does, it goes to show that meta IS useful and you are willing to use it in your gaming strategy.
Yes, it is useful for me to use, not for you all. By you all using my meta to ascertain my alignment in this game, I am able to use that examination to make you all think certain things of me when I really am pulling the wool over your eyes.
I assumed Crand took my vote seriously. It could be otherwise. I don't exactly know, and most likely won't ever know for sure.
Meta is a natural tell for people. If all of a sudden someone you know started acting differently, you'd notice. It wouldn't be because you researched their behavioral patterns consciously, but because it was subconscious. You all have an established meta on me, and by me defying that meta I am putting myself at an advantage. This allows me to pull off gambits and reaction tests more efficiently.
I think that's enough droning on about my beliefs on meta, so moving on...
Because I don't see Raven as scummy? Also, it's bad practice to accuse your buddy of being scum.
Could you clarify the second part of that statement? Who would be the buddy and who would be doing the accusing in this case?
I'm buddying Raven. Not scumbuddies, but shameless sheeping and things of the like. LnGrrrR asked me why /I/ wasn't putting pressure on Raven, and I'm assuming he wanted me to put pressure on her. (Meanwhile, may I note how he didn't pressure her at all after I said that I wouldn't? It seems like he doesn't believe the associative tell on Crand/Raven, otherwise he would be pushing on them rather than a meta argument on me.)
tl;dr meta is dumb and I'm using mine to experiment on you all.
(Man, half of this post belongs in the Mafia Discussion Forum.)
