NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Thor665]

/Forsooth.

Vote: Oversoul

[Thor665]

I wasn't aware that I had cast a random vote in the last two years or so.

[Thor665]

Flow Chart~~

VOTE: Oversoul

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Reason for not sheeping an obvious Betelgeuse wagon of win?

[Thor665]

Aw, look, a bad reaction test that ignores the current game state and a player who is functionally playing as neutral as a neutron.

Now I have three people I'm willing to lynch.

[Thor665]

I understand you're asking a question...I don't know what the question actually is.
The statement seems pretty self-explanatory to me.

[Thor665]

It is not sarcasm.
Why not not you?

[Thor665]

Well, allow me to run through it slowly then;

1. There were two people with votes on them at the time I entered the game.
2. One was B&B, who I think I can read well.
3. One was you, who I am more neutral about my ability to read.
4. I voted you.
5. You responded in a scummy way immediately appearing and trying to soften the vote and also ignoring the other vote on you for unclear reasons.
6. As part of this you questioned if the vote was random.
7. I said the vote wasn't random.
8. You did this.
9. I explained everything.

What's ten?

[Thor665]

I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

If the game had started would my comment not have been ridiculous?
What does game start have to do with it being a bad or good comment?

I don't believe these being legit. You're reaching for a reason to vote someone and the reaction you claim to have gotten is not

telling

nor did I think it would have been leaning scummy off what OS posted.

This from the guy dorking around with cult claim?

Why do you think that because you don't find the reaction

telling

that I don't? How do you draw that conclusion?

Also....seriously, I'm"reaching" during RVS?

Look forward to more on that too.

Yeah, I'm good with a Ryu lynch.

[Thor665]

There's more votes on Oversoul.
You're also not voting people long enough to get a reaction, making the switches kinda pointless right now - if you want to sweat me you're supposed to, y'know, make me feel any pressure at all.

[Thor665]

This pre-RVS.

It has been silly.

Can we start over?

You can't go back, you can only look, behind from whence we came.
But, if you wanted to pretend to do anything pro-town, you could try to stop the silliness instead of vaguely slapping at it and doing nothing.
Just a crazy thought.
Is this a Newbie?
I think I'm supposed to claim Cult now - that will help me scumhunt.

[Thor665]

I don't care enough to stop this freight train. who knows, I might even join in the festivities. maybe like 3 pages from now.

pedit:

Seriously though, do these votes even count? I must have missed when D1 started

Why are you so worried if the votes count if you're not even planning to put one out for three pages?
You are Revelations 3:16
I'd lynch you.

Well, you were claiming you were ready to lynch someone because they posted "/confirm" and nothing else at a point when it wasn't clear whether we were even supposed to be posting anything else. If the game had started it wouldn't be AS ridiculous, though I'd still take issue with you being ready to lynch on page 3 barring a really obvious tell.

You've been on this site a while to judge by your join date.
Two questions;

1. Do you vote people you don't intend to lynch?
2. Do you always announce that to them when you vote them?

Unvote: Oversoul
Vote: Cephrir

Baaaaa.

[Thor665]

actually I won't complain. I'll get a read or 2 out of this. carry on your merry ways

Yeah, it's awfully nice that other people are scumhunting and advancing the game.
Replace out?

[Thor665]

I don't disagree with that.

Why is Cephrir town, I don't see it. He appears to be playing up a concept that makes little sense, while accusing me of the same, combining hypocrisy and also skeevy apparent intent in vote placement.
I want him dead.
What am I missing?

[Thor665]

Aw, crud, now I said I wanted someone dead.
I am so scummy.
I mean Cult - I am so Cult...SK.

[Thor665]

you're already blinded by beautyandthebeast trying to make you their pet townie

Maybe I am.
You still didn't answer the question.

Looks like my reputation proceeds me.

taking aim at such a benign comment like that suggests that you are grumpy today

You have a reputation for being useless in games?
Replace out?

Maybe I am grumpy - I don't see what that has to do with the validity of my point about your play thus far.

i also understood understood cephrir's gripe with people messing around in what is not really officially a game environment as sanctioned by the mod. i'm guessing its why some other players haven't posted yet. but since that cat seems well outside of that bag already i'm going to catch me a scum and put a stop to this threat.

As soon as you can post in the game thread then the game thread is an official play environment.
Heck - other game threads are official play environment for this game...so are all other threads on this site, and threads not on this site.
This is Mafia, not Candyland.

[Thor665]

Maybe I am.
You still didn't answer the question.

the implicit meaning is that i think cephrir is town because of the way beauty voted him. it has nothing to do with his posts.

Really?
That's your answer to my case on him, B&B are voting him so he is town?

[Thor665]

Yes (you for instance); no. However, I do not say I want to lynch someone when I don't.

If you don't want to lynch me, why vote me?
If you tell me you don't want me lynched then i am under no pressure from your vote, so it's not a pressure vote.
If you don't want to lynch me than it's not a serious vote.
So...what is the vote doing for you? A placeholder for amusement's sake or something?

[Thor665]

So my reaction of voting you and calling your push on me hypocritical and bad was a 'town reaction'.
Does that mean you agree that it looked like that?

[Thor665]

So my reaction of voting you and calling your push on me hypocritical and bad was a 'town reaction'.
Does that mean you agree that it looked like that?

No.

So why did my reaction look town-like if I, apparently, just rectally extracted an opinion and tossed it out there as an excuse to attack you?

[Thor665]

If your casting a "for serious sizzle to vote" RVS is over. You're trying really hard to justify a vote in RVS that you claim is serious that really doesn't mean much this early.

However I think your dumb town or scum, leaning on dumb town ATM, but enlighten me.

Enlighten you about what?
You didn't actually ask me a question. You called me stupid and then asked me to make you smarter about how the game is played.


Why does it matter that I want to call a vote 'that doesn't mean much' serious? Would you rather I call it 'not serious'? Would that be the smart town move?
I don't get it.
I'm pretty dumb though.
Can you explain why me deciding a vote is serious makes me either scummy or stupid?

[Thor665]

He should only be null at worst if I don't think what he did was a tell - now you're applying your opinion of the tell to me and then saying that my reaction to it is inherently flawed as opposed to trying to understand why I think the tell is worth more than you think it is. Is that how you scumhunt? Avoid trying to understand what the other person is thinking and just apply your own conclusions immediately?

If I was doing a reaction test I blew it? Okay...good to know...even though he reacted to me as did multiple other posters...?

So I'm either dumb town because you think a theory reaction test didn't get a reaction (even though it did) and/or because I'm taking a tell too seriously that you didn't try to understand.
Or I'm scum who thinks that causing a reaction test that didn't get a reaction (even though it did) and/or pushing really hard will make me look town.

Wouldn't that just make me dumb either way and not actually be an alignment tell at all?
You seem to just be saying 'I think Thor is dumb and hi play is also dumb - he is either town or scum.'

In other words you're saying nothing.
Right?

[Thor665]

So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Eeewww!

In other news - the game is in progress even though votes don't currently count.
Your thoughts?

[Thor665]

Anything you got on OS is borderline worthless. I will say how others reacted to it is a tell worth looking at, OS though not so much.

So...yeah, in other words I created reactions and got tells.

So yes I think how you approached applying Ws bad, but your line if questions, at least later, is trying to make content and stance. I think your dumb town because you're trying but doing it wrong and pretty much got null tells from OS, others are really just a fluk and I don't think you planned that.

I'm certain I didn't plan it, after all I only do it in all of my games in order to get reactions and responses - but this time it's probably a silly fluke.
It's good to know I'm doing something "wrong" but am helping scumhunt to the point that generates a town read on me.
Hint: if you look at my meta you'll recognize you're calling me dumb town for something I do as scum (dumb or smart - who can tell) which, y'know, before you call my methods dumb and bad you may wish to look into before you claim it's a town tell for you.

Yeah - that's a backhand 'you play the game bad back at'cha.

I had no clear read on you, congrats, I said this very clearly til I read page 4. You didn't really get much from OS and you got something from others, which all I will credit you for that.

I'm just bringing it up - because you suggested me making more of something that was really a null tell was scummy.
You made a rather large production of calling me - functionally, a null tell.
Does that make what you did scummy?

[Thor665]

Can you link me to a town game and a scum game?

Go click on my username - click 'user's topics' then have a plethora of options.

I could however have been wasting your time and trying to fake this all and make myself look townie, do you think I did this?

Yeah, I think it's a very solid possibility. You are doing less then spit while attacking people for doing stuff, and then backpedaling away from it when called on it all while not actually doing anything else.
You feel very scummy to me.
It's why we're even having this conversation.

[Thor665]

Majiffy what is your read on Thor?

Looks like a TownThor, belittles like a TownThor, thinks like a TownThor.

Could be ScumThor.

[Thor665]

It is tempting to use that to replace the current 'Thor strategy guide' link - though I am a fan of Robo's fear induced soliloquy.

[Thor665]

I'm back on page 12 and will continue to kind of suck for a while yet as long as posting continues at this pace.
Sorry, but my current work situation is really only allowing me 1-3 pages a night, tops, and at the moment you're all posting faster than that.
I will have time to catch up on the weekends and active participate then, until that point you'll get messages sent into the future from me.

I'm currently back in the OS push and massclaim discussion.
I feel like I'm in a game with Pie again.

I'd be fine with massclaim (though I suspect that discusiion has probably died long ago as invariably the suggestion is talked about at length and then never followed through on.)
I'm...okay with the OS push, will be curious to see where it goes (if anywhere). I certainly agree his claim is totally derpy and skeevy. I'm not sure that I buy it as a scum strategy though, and frankly lean town on him for it and dislike the current push insomuch as I think it's scum driven (I like it insomuch as it's a decent sized push)
I'd still kinda like to run up Red Ryu and am in favor of whoever it was that was pushing on him (Nacho or Om, I forget...though frankly I'm content to buddy both at the current moment.)
I could buy the B&B = scum case as they don't look shingingly town to me...but the current case seems to be based around buddying me and;
1. Doesn't everyone
and, more importantly
2. B&B is comprised of two players who most assuredly would tend to do that to me regardless of alignment...so...?

I consider it 'meh'.

That's about all that seems to be worth discussing thus far.
Normally I'd slap out a vote for lulz, but I'm too lazy to look up the vote count and on the off chance a flash wagon formed I don't want to push it too far without knowing that I am.
Tomorrow I'll read a few more pages.

[Thor665]

Vote count on this page.

Vote: Red Ryu

Because.

[Thor665]

there was a vc on this page

too lazy to scroll up?

I am only not pouncing on you cos of majiffy

There was a vote from me on this page.

Also a vote count.

Too lazy to scroll up?

I'm pouncing on you because I like to belittle people silly enough to question me.
Why aren't you guys voting Red Ryu? I hope there's an answer in the rest of my reading.

[Thor665]

I am full of uber fail.
I don't think I have ever actually posted a prod dodge post before...but this is basically that.
Don't hate me.
Content will come on the weekend, pinkie swearz.

<<< *sigh* Does

anyone

read my rules? >_<
I put hard work into making them look nice. You don't know how many revisions they went through before I got them!
And despite all that work, people apparently STILL can't read them. :/ >>>

[Thor665]

And I suppose by 'basically' I mean 'explicitly'.

[Thor665]

Okay, so I need to read from Page 12 and the game is on...Page 44.
Poop on me.

Here comes a quick pile of thoughts as I read;

Page 12

I like Om's reads push, not insomuch as I agree with them, but rather some of the logic behind them - specifically his CTD as town which is at least not a normal push (indeed, it's a push on a playstyle tell) but which feels very genuine and attempting to scumhunt.
Om can be town.

Page 13

I may even agree that B&B's list is weak...but to have Cephrir show up after a lengthy jiatus, just sideways attack the list in a vague way, and then disappear. Well, it makes me wonder why anyone thinks that slot looks townish.

I am forced to admit his 320 is decent though, and provides basis for the attack.

Page 14

Om is more townish in his reactions to calling B&B scummy though, Ceph feels fake "oops, forgot I didn't really suspect who I was voting for" Yeah...sure.
I support the wagon though - probably would have voted it.

@Bulbazak

- Majiffy doesn't buddy? Since when?

Page 15

Kinda want to lynch Fuzzy now, just because he's playing without any desire to show his alignment.

Page 16

I would policy vote Bacde at this point.
Ceph is really odd in his playstyle, he's been around since 2006 and apparently thinks everything anyone says needs to be treated as hard fact. The hell...didn't I ask him about this in RVS/Confirm...I think he dodged answering.

@Ceph

- Address that, pl0x.

Page 17

Really, silence Nero?
Lulz.

Page 18

I think Bulbazak is town.
Town I will likely ignore and skim for the rest of the game, but town.




I skimmed the last of that page pretty hardcore - so I'm taking a break.
I'll probably assault in again later in an hour or two.

[Thor665]

You're kind of painfully saying it on Page 16 - but let's focus on the actual question.

Earlier you actually called me scummy for saying I wanted to lynch someone.
You actually did this.
You then call B&B scummy for saying someone is 'confscum' and not voting them.
Because...what, you think they have the knowledge to really believe someone is confscum at that stage? That we should all believe it?

You are dramatically pedantic.
Not just 'assume people mean what they say' but 'take them to literal extremes and call them scum for it'
This is, functionally, misrepping for scum intent.
Justify this.

[Thor665]

A serious vote is different from "we should lynch this guy".

I provided reasons.
You called them bad and weak.
However, clearly at some point someone needs to advance from totally random to weak serious, and then from weak serious the actual serious cases can be drawn. Unless you're arguing that there is way to make a legit serious case out of a progression of non-serious posts and that this is the only proper way to do it?

Okay, so he was scum for calling someone 'confscum' without evidence...I would point out that this is, again, pedantry. Obviously he called them 'confscum' without actual proof of them being 'confscum'. So at that point you're saying he can't call a gut read a strong read when he has presented no other read as stronger, and that makes him scummy somehow?

I don't get it - clarify a bit more?

[Thor665]

Continuing.

Page 19

@Amethyst

- explain Mollie's town tells please.

Oh gawds, Eddie is very newb.

Ryu's defense of OS, especially in light of OS calling it a reaction test later, looks pretty skeevy. he's really buying into it and buddying the slot hard on what is, functionally, a VT claim.

Apparently we will later need to remember to divide Nero's vote count by 2 to see his actual activity.

Page 20

@Mac

- Why is Slandaar town?

DLG feels town.

Page 21

I agree with Nero's push on B&B here. (the indie thing)
If B&B flips scum - lynch Desperado.

Page 22

@Amethyst

- I have played with town Fuzzy.
I have not played with scum Fuzzy.
This Fuzzy looks like town Fuzzy - I can say that because I have no concept at all of what scum Fuzzy would look like.

Discuss this gak.

Amethyst looks scummy this page.
Bulbazak looks town.

Gawds...bored again, this is like wading through pea soup.

[Thor665]

First point - you are allowed to suspect someone for weak reasons and to vote them, just not to say 'die scum die' or the like.

Why not?
Also, why would scum do it and town wouldn't?

Second - First of all, he never specified that it was a gut read.

Because a list of reads he can barely put into words as to why he has them are reads based on solid cases he's refusing to discuss?

It's not pedantry, because if you have that strong a suspicion, you've got to have a reason.

It's only a "strong suspicion" insomuch as you're taking it to pedantic levels.
It's amongst the strongest of a list of reads none of which have reasons...why is it special?

The only one being pedantic at this point is you, I don't know why you're insisting we have this big long argument about my word choice or why I've had to clarify the same thing multiple times. I don't think I can be much clearer, and I don't see how it really matters all that much.

It matters to me because I think you're faking how much you care about word choice in order to make scum cases that look legit and can be pressed for 'legit' reasons, while the cases themselves are, in reality, meaningless gak with no real scumworthiness behind them.

I'm trying to figure out if you really believe what you're saying by pressing you to keep defending the stance in different ways to see if I can find logical holes that appear scummy, or simply town with a playstyle I find disagreeable.

Currently you appear desperate to stop the conversation, as opposed to explaining how your scumhunting style works - which hardly thrills me as a response.

Make sense?

[Thor665]

its likely thor is town considering that he would be willing to PL me and isn't finding me obvtown for some reason

I do that because I'm afflicted with a little thing called 'sanity'.

I also have a strong townread on the Disney Hydra slot so I don't know how you are coming up with them being likely to flip scum. I also don't know how you came to the conclusion that they are going to flip anytime soon.

Well, since I actually said neither of those things...awesome for you?

Why so defensive of them? Clearly you have some town tells off them too then, right?
Share those pl0x!

Because hyperaggressiveness is often percieved as townie, whereas I think town tend to say what they honestly believe, and I didn't think you honestly believed anything that had happened at that point was lynchworthy.

Why did I sound like I was lying to you?

No, they're based on reasons that don't exist?

Duh. I agree.
The point is - whys hould one nebulous reason that is stronger need to be able to justify itself more than a different nebulous reason.
If I have three null reads and decide to lynch one of them, and my answer is 'because' when I choose one...why is that so inherently scummy?
Yeah, maybe it's lazy. But what is the pro-scum motivation there?

I also don't know that I really have a scumhunting style (see: Smurfy town player, usually too busy getting lynched to scumhunt), but my *preference* is to scumhunt by presenting cases, and I like it when others make cases rather than try to persuade me with ambiguous meta cases and "look at his posts" reasoning.

1. No one was trying to convince you to sheep either opinion at that stage.
2. You are self-expressed as bad at scumhunting, but have attacked two players on how they are scumhunting.

Discuss?

[Thor665]

Page 23

I like B&B's catch on the kitten. Still want to lynch that thing.

Page 24

@Nacho

- how clever do you think Oversoul is exactly? Because it sounds like you caught him in a bad claim that would, by definition, require a large amount of cleverness to pull off. Functionally I feel like you're calling him clever and dumb scum both at the same time and applying both tells to him - thoughts?

Page 25

I hope Mollie explains the 3rd party thing better than 'because that's how you sound'
Seriously.

Page 26

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4938719
Kind of feels that doesn't jive with later Cephrir answers. Urge to kill it rising...oh, snap, i said kill it, i am scumz!

Page 27

Bulbazak bleeds town.
SLaandar can be scummy now.


I'm done with this for tonight.
I still have about...20 pages? Ugh. Sunday may see a lot of that sawed down - or I'll just start skipping it out of boredom and figure I missed nothing of import.

[Thor665]

I am full of uber fail.
I don't think I have ever actually posted a prod dodge post before...but this is basically that.
Don't hate me.
Content will come on the weekend, pinkie swearz.

<<< *sigh* Does

anyone

read my rules? >_<
I put hard work into making them look nice. You don't know how many revisions they went through before I got them!
And despite all that work, people apparently STILL can't read them. :/ >>>

If you want to go by that "spirit of the rules" thing, then clearly my post, in spirit, *was* a declared V/LA until the weekend.
So...

<<< Fair enough. But I prefer explicit declarations as to leave no ambiguity. >>>

[Thor665]

@Nacho - eh.

Vote Red?

[Thor665]

Maybe if you catch up all the way and still think he is scum.
We're both a little behind, so sheeping each other turns into the blind leading the blind.

Oh, that's a little rich coming from you, but then maybe I shouldn't bring up other games.

Still, seriously, what even is your case on him? Because it looks really weak at this stage and well past the point of being a test if you're still derping around on it.

Meanwhile, Red needs death.

@Amethyst - example of her working with her town reads?

[Thor665]

Probably my last post for tonight. I'm tired.

rawr.

~Mala

I meant in this game.

[Thor665]

Smurf you guys are gonna let scumcho right through your fingers

Link or restatement of your case on Nacho?

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 7 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty, Slandaar, Desperado, EddieFenix)

Red Ryu - 5 (Oversoul, Thor665, Mac, Bulbazak, Syryana)

Bulbazak - 2 (Om the Destroyer, fuzzybutternut)
Cephrir - 2 (BeautyAndTheBeast, Baby Spice)
DLG - 1 (CrashTextDummie)
Oversoul - 1 (Nachomamma8)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Cephrir)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)

Not Voting - 4 (Seanald, ActionDan, Rondar, ArcAngel9)

[Thor665]

He's acting like

you

do when you are scum

Nacho plays to my meta?

you know, he's acting like an experienced scum player

his scumreads are few and far between

his only posts are purposely constructed to appear town without actually doing tough town work

he tunneled on the worst case I've ever seen nacho tunnel on in my life

I have been in some games now that make me question if bad play = scum Nacho though.
You've never seen him play bad as town?

its the same way that in 1393 you latched on to AP making a small "lie" about whether he had read into your meta deeply or if he had skimmed your games--the point really doesn't smurfing matter that much but a scum will push it like dragon eggs because they don't want to have to think about the game analytically

Honestly, I would have done that push as town - he lied about his reasoning for suspecting me. That's a scumtell.

also he proposed a massclaim on d1 for no reason and pushed that

No, he *supported* a proposal for massclaim.
He did explain his reasons.
I did the same thing...except I didn't explain my reasons.
Why does that make him scummy?

[Thor665]

1. How scandalous of me.

2. It's impossible to read words and not apply my thoughts to them - that's how reading works.

3. Is this something NACHO has done before. I can show scum examples of people not reading games, and I can how different people being town when not reading games - that means you can't apply the meta of one to the other.

4. How is it different? Just that he's reading? Because he's claiming not reading...

5. I still don't think you or Voldy know Thortown as well as you would have me think. I often get in trouble for pushing things too hard. Also, AP flat out lied - what the hell?

6. Yes. Again, I support the massclaim, I support it without reasoning - so clearly I don't see supporting it as a scum action. Enlighten me.

[Thor665]

Also your point #5--no, AP did not flat out lie.

Yeah, he did.
I'm even here in another game saying it - so you know I believe it to be true.

Nacho is doing the same thing. Trust me when I say this isn't nacho's town game. Nacho wouldn't tell me that my play is "good" in this game if I was tunneling on him-town (yet he did).

That is the best scumtell I've seen you manage on him.

My case is not a "meta" case

Its a "nacho is a better player than this" case

Also known as...a meta case.

I supported the massclaim for, really, all the reasons Nacho stated. Pretty much down to the letter. When he explained why he was for it my response was 'heck yes, I concur.'
I still don't get how that remotely makes him scummy. It feels like a random add on that has nothing to do with the rest of your case, and that makes the whole thing feel skeevy to me.

[Thor665]

Yes.

Now you're supposed to move beyond IIoA.

[Thor665]

What did I do that was scummy?

[Thor665]

kudos to thor for pointing out that is bc's case is a meta case. but thor you have been consistently cranky what's up with that.

Ongoing.

That said, I don't see what this has to do with the price of tea in China.

Thor I'ma be really satisfied when you flip scum regardless of nacho's alignment

bc we are so on the same page it is not funny. thor tweaked my scumdar last night we he said he was hittin' da club but suddenly reappears when nacho gets on and looked....perky. it is a weak fos that I am unable to solidify cos he is ignoring me lol.

Quote me saying I was 'hitting the club'.
Because I didn't.

What did I do that was scummy?

What did you do that was townie?

I got my role PM.
Why do you think I'm scum?

last time I went toe to toe in wot war with thor I nearly gave myself an aneurism cos do you know what he did he said, "hey mollie why is your town game like your scum game?" when the only game I had played with him at that point was audio where I was scum.

he said this and got away with it

.

That's actually a valid question.
But, yeah, Bacde thinking he can out wordplay me is kinda silly.

[Thor665]

"hittin da club" is a figure of speech, meaning "signing off"

Yeah...but was a signing off of the site, or signing off of catching up...which was what I was doing in that post.

I asked you why you were cranky cos I wanted to what entertaining story you came up with cos I don't believe you are actually cranky, I think you are just doing it so that players will keep their distance. it is a classic tell for old school players and what is interesting is that it is a certain personality type who does it. you have been dropping it all game and I just really don't think your male pms can possibly last this long.

yeah, bc probably won't be able to out wordplay. I can't either but I might be able to outmaneuver you someday with in thread game play. mebbe

but then I am in a majiffy hydra so things might be different haha

Yeah, being with Majiffy makes you easy to lynch if I want to lynch you.

Did any of that have a purpose? Besides a really stretchy emotion as scumtell theory that didn't even bother to look at any of my other games to see if I'm not grumpy in them in order to prove your rather silly scumtheory? Because, y'know, if I was faking it then, theoretically, I wouldn't be doing it in other games, right?

@Thor when did I say I can out-wordplay you? And when did that even become relevant to you being scum? As long as your MO this game is "defend nacho" and "not look for scum" I will continue to scumread you and probably get you lynched later this game

Well...seeing as how I am scumhunting and also that scumhunting can involve discussing the Nacho case...I dunno, yeah it will probably be easy for you to lynch me later.

So...is that why I'm scummy? For not buying your not exactly impressive case on Nacho and also for "not scumhunting" (says the guy who just admitted he won't be scumhunting anymore)

Oh, wait, I just managed to insult your case, your conclusions, *and* call you a hypocrite off of one post. That's a trifecta, I win!

But, no, seriously - why do you think I'm scummy? You waded in on that awfully quick after calling me town, and the only thing I did inbetween was question your Nacho case and point out that I thought it had holes. Are you really that insecure, or really that certain that I'd be desperate to protect a scumbuddy from an attack...because Thor does that all the time.

[Thor665]

Actually, Mollie, wait a minute.

You *don't think I was cranky*

What emotion would you ascribe to me during the audio game.

Dead serious question here.

[Thor665]

I'm going to defend scum - your case on him is probably about as solid as your case on me, and thus isn't worth sheeping at this point.

[Thor665]

Also, you should pay attention to how Slandaar does it - he's pushing the case about fifty times better than you are right now.

[Thor665]

Guys, if nacho was town, would his vote seriously still be on OS?

seriously?

You are in an ongoing with me where you saw Nacho play.
I really wish I could ask you about it.
But I am fascinated at this level of awe for him considering you saw the same play I did.
It's annoying I can't press you on it either - because you are the one who feels fake here.

[Thor665]

@Thor what is your read on slandaar?

Scummy.
I've said as much.

I took it as you signing off mebbe you should have used more words

Maybe you shouldn't infer meanings to things?

wait why would I look at other ongoing games to try to discern whether or not you are actually cranky when I can just ask you itt. I can't discuss them and not knowing your alignment in those games, it would be pointless. you, theoretically, could be scum in all of your current games to say otherwise is the application of gambler's fallacy.

You're saying I'm faking being cranky - are you now claiming I'm faking it across all of my current games because of this one?
Because if I'm faking it...shouldn't you be able to find me being...y'know, *not* cranky?
Or is your defense seriously "Thor is probably scum in all of his current games, faking being cranky in all of them, so that means we should lynch him in this one"
Because I have to tell you...not really in awe of that as a conclusion.

and now you are deflecting

That's cool, maybe I am.

Are you going to answer my question about Audio Mafia now?
Y'know, because *you* are town and wouldn't deflect like scummy, cranky, Thor, right?

[Thor665]

you didn't start off cranky. I would say you got more aggravated as the game progressed rather than just flat out cranky

you have been cranky this entire game. I am trying to determine if it is a legitimate relative tell for you

How do you define a difference between 'aggravated' Thor and 'cranky' Thor?

[Thor665]

I'm going to defend scum - your case on him is probably about as solid as your case on me, and thus isn't worth sheeping at this point.

@mollie, thor likes to say cheeky stuff as scum right?

lol, yes

Mollie, does Thor say cheeky stuff as town?

[Thor665]

Scummy.
I've said as much.

where is your case thor huh huh huh

I didn't make one, so it's in my head somewhere, swimming around.
What does it matter?

mebbe you should have used more words in order to specify the distinction since you are apparently making one

Okay, let's even go with the theory that I meant logging off...what does that tell you about my alignment?
Y'know, since you're now implying I am lying about what I meant.

The entire rebuttal to her cranky tell
Neener -neener - neener - naaaaaah!

Yeah, that sells me.
So...basically all just made up gak then?
Got it.

I'm going to defend scum - your case on him is probably about as solid as your case on me, and thus isn't worth sheeping at this point.

@mollie, thor likes to say cheeky stuff as scum right?

lol, yes

Mollie, does Thor say cheeky stuff as town?

of course you do, but the motivation is different. right now I am trying to determine the motivation

Tell me more - because your initial answer was just tossing out a scumtell on me without giving the more honest answer of 'he's cheeky as any alignment' even if you do think there are different types of Thor cheekiness.

Because that's scummy as hell.

Thor I will probably look into a little more when he is caught up all the way and ~later~, but I like most of what I see so far, I don't really think he would decide to approach the game in the way that he is if he was scum. But that's an assumption that has burned me in the past, so it doesn't mean too much.

Thor is a Thor read.

Well, do you think Mollie is scummy for sk hunting?

If yes, why is Nacho not scummy for defending Mollie?

If no, why did you think my line of questioning was constructive?

I think you've proven she's a suboptimal scumhunter - but unless you want to tell me without a doubt that there's only one scum team in the game then I see it as a questionable tell that should be revisited more later.
That said, Mollie is scummy for other reasons now - vote her.

Because she is Schrodinger's scum, and also town defend scum.

It would be constructive regardless of my personal belief on the tell because you took a hard stance and pressed on it.

Again, why did you call me out on this?

you didn't start off cranky.

I would say you got more aggravated as the game progressed rather than just flat out cranky

you have been cranky this entire game.

I am trying to determine if it is a legitimate relative tell for you

what? lol

That's rather silly - she's talking about two different games.
Why the misrep?

I don't understand why it took Slandaar so long to start attacking me based on massclaim discrepancies, considering he brought it up early then sort of postured for a while, then jumped on my wagon when it started to gain momentum. His posting elsewhere has been just weak as shit; he's thrown out a few random reads, but he took FOREVER to vote for some reason and he's probably scum.

You planning to RESPOND to his case though?
Because it looks like a knockout punch to me.

Edit: I see your link...how is that relevant, specifically?

Scum to varying degrees:
Nacho/Thor/Fuzzy/Ceph/Bulba

Tell me more about...me.

I disliked that he singled out Red Ryu for mindless Nacho pushing while giving Bacde a slide on the same offense.

I like this.

[Thor665]

You are being disruptive and not in a good way; disrupt the game by trying to divide town seems to be your gameplan.

Was I being disruptive by...questioning some wagons? Or something else?

D1 is not my day. I read mosy everyone as null. anyone can play to appear town. which is why we even have town reads. The lynch and reasoning behind it is all that will stand out to me.

@Thezmon

Your reasonless list is nothing but filler. To paraphrase you, you said "Hey im here and im doing stuff, Im not done yet so it looks like im not doing anything".

Im bringing this to light because I see it as fluff and everyone else should too.

Pot...kettle?
I presume you have a distinction here.

^ @Thor: This is what shows Mollie using her town reads to help her build reads. She's working with us and others and it's what she does as town.

I'll be honest with you.
This is a 50 page game or something.
You have 4 examples.
2 of them look like massive stretches to me.
Whassup?

Okay, let's even go with the theory that I meant logging off...what does that tell you about my alignment?
Y'know, since you're now implying I am lying about what I meant.

cos scum like to steer the game

And town...don't?

Also, how was that helping me steer the game?

Mwu-hahaha! I have fooled town into thinking I went to bed...the FOOLS!

I guess I had to escape all the massive pressure I was under from half the game calling me townish or something...what?

no. I answered the question.

You did.
But you lied via omission.

Because that's scummy as hell.

no its not. would you like me to post the post where you said I could not possibly be the cult leader in the cult micro game? cos that is what I was thinking at the time when bc asked that.

How is that remotely a rebuttal to what I'm accusing you of there?

Unvote: Red Ryu
Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

[Thor665]

1. Because he was terrible.

2. Being terrible.

Any other silly questions?

[Thor665]

Thor, I'm town. Vote Cephrir or Nacho.

What do you think of Mollie's recent posts?

[Thor665]

Thor, I'm town. Vote Cephrir or Nacho.

What do you think of Mollie's recent posts?

I don't know, is she still arguing dumb things? I stopped paying attention to what was going on with her half about 10 pages ago.

I feel like this is kind of a 'oh...yeah, she's sorta scumming it up and Thor knows it, so I better just blitz around the subject and charge off in a new direction quick!'

She's saying stuff.
Your name is functionally attached to it.
If the two of you half-wits can't manage a full wit seperately, maybe you should, y'know, talk some stuff over a bit, consolidate some opinions?
But, seriously, I want your read on what she's doing right now.
Because it looks very, very, bad.
And I'm going to lynch you over it once the rest of town realizes what's going down.

Also, frankly, your demand for Khan to provide reasons that he dislikes your posts as you debate his reasons for disliking your posts?
Kinda weird.

@Syryana - what's your read on B&tB?

Have I mentioned lately that I want to lynch the cat thing? The cat, and Red, and B&tB.

@Bacde - I have heard you say that you 'always read Nacho as scum' so...why are we supposed to give two figs about the read this time? And, why are you so vibrant on a read you have self admitted to always having?

[Thor665]

Thor what do you think about those who do not answer your questions?

Depends on the question and its purpose.
Generally I consider them poo-poo heads.
When are you planning to justify me being in your scum listing, by the by, Mr. Poo-poo Head?

Slandaar is also chilling on my wagon scummy as fuck, potshot here, potshot there, empty reads list.

Vote him then.
Or Amethyst.
Or B&tB.
You can't have them all as town and also weaker than Desperado as scum to such a degree you want to sit on a relatively dead wagon, right?

Like seriously, why is no one else on the nacho wagon arguing the way I am?

this is bullSmurf

I'd say they're all arguing like you are - it's just when there isn't a case they don't resort to repetition to make up for it. Otherwise the strength of everyone's case and convictions seems about the same to me.

Wanna vote Slandaar, Amethyst, or B&tB?

also why is everyone letting thor skate. like omg

Big talk from the head dodging responding to me (whichever head this is - both of you wussbags are doing it)
But I bet this is Mollie (because I'd like to think Majiffy is too proud to say 'omg' like a little girl) and Mollie is the one "scumhunting" me as I understand it.
And, y'know, not responding to my attacks, defending her case, and resorting to random appeals to the masses is *totally* what scumhunting to get a read looks like.
...when you're scum.

[Thor665]

Big talk from the head dodging responding to me (whichever head this is - both of you wussbags are doing it)
But I bet this is Mollie (because I'd like to think Majiffy is too proud to say 'omg' like a little girl) and Mollie is the one "scumhunting" me as I understand it.

What exactly have

I

not responded to?
And I'm not scumhunting you because I have a town read on you. Mollie is the paranoid one on you and Bacde.

It is rather silly and scummy to force other people to deal with your split personalities as a hydra.
When mollie doesn't respond to something than YOU haven't responded to something.
Deal with it.

Also, Bacde is playing terribly - but he's still playing better than all the feebs sitting around not voting or voting single vote wagons at this stage of the game day.
Seriously now.

[Thor665]

That's 11 votes I think. The contradiction point is solid but everything else really isn't; I'm going to call the wagon mediocre and continue to pass.

Who are you voting again and why?

[Thor665]

wrt the bold: do you people see this thor's vote is on us but he is whining that people are voting wagons that aren't going anywhere I mean omg the irony. mebbe hypocrisy is a towntell for him I dunno

And at that point in time I was on a wagon with two votes - which...y'know, I wasn't complaining about. Maybe you should look up what hypocrisy means?

I left you alone cos majiffy yelled at me in gchat and I didn't want to get in the way of you 2's bromance.

That's funny - he said he was not reading what you were saying and was letting you run with it.
Is one of you lying, or am I misunderstanding something?

I have you as scum and majiffy has you as town. you can also drop that patronising condescending tone with me you know perfectly well that I am not going wilt under your bullying I am pretty much immune.

As I recall, i got you to "wilt" once before. So, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to perfectly know that you won't. Next thing you know you'll be telling me I can't call you a liar.

also did you read my meta case on nacho? it is pretty brilliant IMO.

I, sadly, consider this in line with town Nacho. It may or may not also be in line with scum Nacho, but from recent experiences I don't currently find it out of whack.

That's 11 votes I think. The contradiction point is solid but everything else really isn't; I'm going to call the wagon mediocre and continue to pass.

Who are you voting again and why?

You could have spent 5 seconds ISOing me but you decided to spend those 5 seconds asking a condescending question?

Yep/

So who are you voting and why again?

[Thor665]

So, you're saying if you explain your vote and reasoning it will look really weak compared to what you were just mocking about the Nacho wagon and I could attack you over it?
Seems like I don't need to get you to provide that info if you're going to admit that right up front.
So where do you get off mocking a bad wagon when you're pushing a weak case and silly vote by your own admission?

[Thor665]

VOTE: fuzzy until he provides some legitimate reads and I had better like them when he does.

Oh, here's the case.

Yeah...I think you're right, I would have attacked you over that.
Where *do* you get off attacking a wagon as weak (with one good point) when you're pushing a 'meh, lurker lynch!'

[Thor665]

And there's a reason i needed to ask.
Because I can't even remember the last time you pressured fuzzy over the so-called purpose of your lynch.
If you're town you should start sheeping people now - because you're not voting right.

[Thor665]

No, I could just tell what you were going for. And, look! I was right! I'm not admitting my vote is weak, I just knew you were going to say it was.

Are you saying your vote is strong?

It's hardly just a lurker lynch. Have you read his posts? Mindless bandwagon hops, total uselessness, and even manages to contradict himself despite never saying anything useful.

Does he not do that when town?

In other news, every time I see that emoticon I want to lynch it, but I'm trying to restrain myself.

And by the way, I'll attack whatever I want. Just because my vote isn't the most popular in the world doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize a wagon I think is on town. Where do *you* get off telling me not to give my opinion?

I get off on a lot of things. I'm easy going like that.
But I do think it's valid to question you attacking and soft supporting a wagon when you are derping around and not actually pushing a wagon - because it looks like potential scum play. You're soft supporting it, while putting yourself against it, and also "working" a vote that isn't it and never will be a valid wagon because you don't care to push it.
So what I see is scum, who knows Nacho will flip town, who would like to see the lynch happen, wants town points for not supporting it, doesn't actually want to derail it, and is content with his "valid" wagon that no one will question because...hey, look, useless poster!
That's where I get off.

Now, where do you get off?

Oh, so you *did* already know the answer to your question and were just trying to get me to say it to make your argument look better. Thanks for admitting that.

Not a problem - I think it worked good as a strategy.
Honestly, I couldn't remember who or what you were voting, but I knew that because I couldn't it would play out this way.

What more can I do for pressure? I'm voting him, he's continuing to be scum, no one else seems to care. I'm not going to do a Bacde impression, that's not how I play.

Well...you *could* go totally crazy and, when attacking a wagon you think is on town...y'know...mention your good wagon on scum.
Or maybe, like me, question the value of some people's votes and suggest your vote is in a good place and they should move.
Or at least be willing to discuss your case when outright asked about it because you think it's a good case as opposed to getting paranoid and immediately expecting to be attacked.
Something crazy like that?

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 8 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Slandaar, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Om the Destroyer, Baby Spice)

fuzzybutternut - 3 (thezmon221, Cephrir, Oversoul)

ArcAngel9 - 3 (DLG, Syryana, Desperado)
Red Ryu - 2 (ArcAngel9, Kublai Khan)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Thor665)
Bacde - 1 (Bulbazak)
Desperado - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Om the Destroyer - 1 (fuzzybutternut)

Not Voting - 4 (Hanzo_5, EddieFenix, BeautyAndTheBeast, Amethyst Kitty)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

Red Ryu is V/LA from Friday, May 17th until Monday, May 20th.
At least half of the Amethyst Kitty hydra is V/LA until Tuesday, May 21st.

[Thor665]

compared to other wagons that had more legs. not to mention at the time you whined you were being sticky with your vote. that post was still hypocritical IMO

Your definition of both sticky and "wagons with more legs" is pretty iffy if you paid half a second's attention to my reads and actions.

you feel edgy. this is why I am reading you as scum.

when did you ever get me to wilt. and I am not lying we are freaking screaming town

Audio Mafia.
You are screaming that you are town - I just don't believe you.

it kind of feels like you are pushing my buttons in order to react in a negative way. this is why I find you highly manipulative and I will be surprised if you do it to this degree as town.

You've seen me do the exact sort of thing in audio mafia.
These sorts of lies are why I don't believe you.

so if you are wobbling on this read why not try to engage cos otherwise this is hedging where are you trying to get a better read off nacho

I didn't say I was wobbling - I said I didn't find this play of his to be in line with scum Nacho because town Nacho wouldn't play like this.
My reply is - I've seen town Nacho play like this.
My personal read of Nacho is town, but it has nothing to do with the meta case, the meta case on him is null in my opinion because I disagree with the meta conclusion, because he can be quite terrible, lurky, and unresponsive as town. I think it's a shame he does that, but he does do that now. I agree that he didn't use to. Meta changes.

[Thor665]

It's strong in that I'm voting for scum. Is it likely to result in a lynch today, probably not.

And this will help town...how?

Does he not do that when town?

I don't have the slightest idea.

So...how do you know it's a scumtell then and not a 'he plays the game badly' tell?

Soft supporting? So you're trying to tell me the only reactions possible to a wagon are voting for it and the AA9 brand "OMG hell no" reaction? I know that I'm not the world's best at reading other players, so I never get confident enough in my reads to have either of those reactions. I don't feel strongly enough about this to try to derail the wagon, I see better scumhunters than myself on it, but I'm not going to put my vote where my own honest opinion isn't except to get a deadline compromise lynch.

Here you are soft supporting it again.

I don't see the use in quoting random posts and saying "well why don't you try voting for fuzzy?" like you're doing with your suspects. That's not going to get you any more votes, all it does it remind everyone with every other sentence where your vote is. I'd love this to be a valid wagon but the Nacho lynch seems like such a foregone conclusion at this point that I know that wouldn't work even if it was within my playstyle (it's not). When I push a wagon I do it by presenting a case and then rebutting arguments against me.

So you were manipulating me, gotcha.

Yes, I was, what are you going to do with that information besides act like it somehow means something while doing nothing with it?

I also sensed a contrived as hell attack coming for your direction, so I figured I might as well pre-emptively defend myself at the same time. I would have discussed it more amicably if your initial posts weren't obviously hostile.

It was only hostile based on the concept that you weren't pushing your lynch - something you fully agree with, so why is that a scummy thing to point out if you agree it is true?

Correction: I have a *slight* idea from the one game I've played with fuzzy. He didn't scumhunt very hard, but as I've said before, he at least made an effort, and didn't bandwagon hop as shamelessly. But this doesn't approach an actual meta read.

As least you realized how bad that stance was.

Link?

well your action so far is to keep your vote on us. which is pretty dumb since you could be using that power elsewhere

Ah, so now we're changing the focus of the attack away from hypocrisy (proven false) and over towards stupidity. In other words, you got new information, and decided to change your reasoning in order to still hold the same conclusion.
That is not the way logic works.
Do you do that as town, or only scum?

don't give me that face

Stop trying so hard to earn it.

what are you even talking about I did not "wilt" in that game if anything you dramaqueened all over the place. and as far as you not believing me I think it is cos you are not reading my posts except for the ones that have to do with you

I caught you because you presented a false argument and then tried to keep it going and I noted how you were trying to bulldog through and ignore logic and heavily pressured you until it became obvious to everyone else that I was right. If you don't want to call that 'wilting' that's fine with me - tell me what word you think it is, and then I'll say that's what I expected you to do to my pressure...which, y'know, was your original point 'Thor, why pressur eme ecause you know it won't work' when, clearly, I have seen it work.

your push feels different. I am not sure if it is cos we are a hydra or not.

Explain this. Because I have no idea why my push should feel different because you're a hydra.
That doesn't even begin to make sense, frankly.

wait wat. so why is your vote not on him

Because you didn't understand what I just typed.

he can be lurky as town sometimes. that isn't why I want to vote him though

ugh thor you confuse me

1. Thor points out a valid meta point about Nacho playing badly as town.
2. Mollie uses meta to explain why Nacho is town because he's playing badly.
3. Mollie is confused by Thor.

I am more confused now.

thor I need a few rounds with

So game is back on despite Majiffy telling you to stop and you stopping on his word?
Ooooookay.
Still waiting for you to do more than throw random and nonsensical scumtells at me, accept my responses are true, and then bend the answers into still being scumtells.
I'm sure that's how scumhunting works - because town would totally respond to that differently than scum.

because he can be quite terrible, lurky, and unresponsive as town. I think it's a shame he does that, but he does do that now. I agree that he didn't use to. Meta changes.

Do you think that this is one of those games?

It's unquestionably one of those games, because you are being terrible.
The only question is if it is terrible town or terrible scum Nacho.

I personally think you are town Nacho for other reasons unrelated to your meta - I find the meta case on you to be weak because 'oooh, Nacho is scuking' is not convincing because I know you can do this sort of gak as town.

I'd love it if you killed that part of your town meta though, just saying.


I don't like the Oversoul push - I lean town on that slot.
I don't like the Nacho one either - same deal.
People are raging lackwits about Majiffy/Mollie - that is a blatant scum Mollie, and I want to hear reasons from people why it looks town when it is lying and misrepping.

Unvote: B&tB
Vote: Red Ryu

This.
@KK - c'mon back, pl0x, Oversoul is more likely town from that gak than scum, seriously.
@Nacho - you can come play here too, it looks tasty, like red velevt cake, Mmmmm.

[Thor665]

Thor had a line of enquiry on Nacho which was ignored and then he kind of just dropped his line of thinking.

Where?

You explaining your meta change to not liking massclaim.

[Thor665]

You planning to RESPOND to his case though?
Because it looks like a knockout punch to me.

Edit: I see your link...how is that relevant, specifically?

Hint: Thor can do research on his own - he just doesn't like to.

[Thor665]

I found out that I couldn't find a solid reason for his meta shift.
I found many examples of him as town and scum opposing masclaim.

I then asked myself, if I was going to do a large meta shift in my playstyle, would I do it first as scum based on a lie, or as town based on reality.

The answer is pretty obvious unless you're derpy.
There's no value in a scumvantage way in him advancing this opinion change nor in how he did it.
Therefore it's not a scumtell.

In addition, a meta change being advocated is more likely to come during a town game because...duh.
Therefore it is a towntell.

Want to bus Red Ryu now?


@KK - You want me to believe that it is a huge scumtell that Oversoul is trying to drop hints that he shouldn't be nightkilled? Now, there are, off the top of my head, probably 3-4 nightkills likely to happen in this game. 2-3 are likely to be scum nightkills.
Just, y'know, saying.
The rest of the 'case' on him is, he was active during a period he admitted to enjoying (fake claim), he went into a slump during a period he didn't enjoy (no fake claim), and has now returned to an act that he clearly enjoyed (claim hint - which is really another value of fakeclaim). I don't care to debate whether or not you think what he's doing is pro town (I *really* don't want to defend it) But I fail to see either a scum agenda or even a fake agenda there. He clearly likes the interplay and attention and is playing in that manner. I'll agree his reads from it suck, but I see people get excited about doing things that get sucky reads all the time as town...so...?

[Thor665]

Top part is @Slandaar.

[Thor665]

So now we're accussing Oversoul of not being good at the game...I don't disagree that his contributions have been weak, but are they scummy? I mean, is semi-sheeping CTD scummy now?

Because I prefer making 'not scum' cases than 'scum' cases.

[Thor665]

Also, if I'm honest, I think I just consider Red to be the most likely to be lynched of players I want to lynch. B&tB and Slandaar both seem immune from getting votes for some reason.

[Thor665]

I'd love it if I killed my off games in my town meta too, but we all have off games. I think my play earlier was underwhelming, but I wouldn't call it bad. I think my play right now is perfectly fine.

Meh, if you are playing perfectly fine and were town, this wagon wouldn't be on you.

Slandaar is the read that I would join you on. B&B probably never, Red Ryu probably won't unless he Smurfs up bad when he comes back.

Vote Slandaar?
Also, why does Red not look like a good case to you, but you're wide open to the idea of voting him if he does a nebulous 'something'?

Because your wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere and I'm more interested in AA9 right now.

If his wagon is going nowhere then what wagon is?
Are you serious with this gak, because I'm almost tempted to sheep Nacho at this stage.

[Thor665]

He didn't sheep CrashTextDummie. He just copied the format.

So...copying the format is scummy now?
You issue is that he didn't have good analysis - why did you even bring CTD into it?

[Thor665]

I did misunderstand your 'not going anywhere' point to read as 'it's not going to lynch'.

Want to vote Slandaar instead?
Do you even have a read on that slot?
It's not like AA is even around to react to your wimp vote, so why not do something proactive with it?

[Thor665]

I have said I do think it is a little obvious for him to do it as scum but...

That seems to sum it up right there.

The meta shift seems just too extreme to be from town

Yeah...except it's also a meta switch from his scum game as well.
If you did a big meta switch would you do it as scum and on a lie, or would you do it as town because you had changed your opinion?
I know I've only ever done meta switches as town first - what about you?

[Thor665]

Why do it as scum in this game and never before?

[Thor665]

Oh, wait, that would make it a meta shift, wouldn't it?

Oh.

But, y'know, answer anyway.

[Thor665]

I'm vaguely town-reading Thor

What changed, scumCat?

[Thor665]

Well there are many explanations for this but they all conclude with; to gain what he thinks is a huge advantage.

Find him discussing that in a situation that does not involve 10 alive in an SK game as opposed to a Day start large.
He also never said it was a huge advantage for scum - he said it was dangerous for town in a SK present situation.
That's a questionable word twist on your part - clarify?

Perhaps he thought he could get away with it with this playerlist etc.

Because we're a list full of people scared to call Nacho on things or massively known for advocating mass claims?

How about you link me to all these scumgames where he opposed massclaim on Day 1 that you have seen.

Go to his user page, search through his games.

Its not a shift because;
As town it means he doesn't think this, as scum he therefore can't break his town meta constantly, so he must revert to opposing. Therefore it is not a shift in the meta.

So...your proof is that he'll shift back to his old meta after this game and that proves he's lying now?
Because if that is what you're saying I'm bewildered, and if that's not what you're saying then I don't follow you.

Recently, I have noticed that I'm always willing to town-read you regardless of your alignment so I probably have to be a bit more conscientious when I'm reading you. Your battle with Disney Hydra is giving me strange memories of your battle with fege

In fact Thor you explain to me how Nacho can magically be enlightened to massclaims when he makes the argument there will be conftown so we have a voting block but can't grasp this concept in a game with only 10 players and 3 dead VT. How does that make any sense? was he not thinking in said game? Or is he just a scumbag here?

I thought that half of your point was that he was playing differently here than there, now you want me to argue differently?
Also, a town voting block through reads is a totally different concept from massclaim - but tell you what, you get him as town saying how bad and pro scum he thinks town voting blocks are and I'll help lynch him right now and sheep you tomorrow.

[Thor665]

How if something is terrible for town (i believe the term was 'Smurfy') is it not beneficial to scum ie advantageous? Clarify for me please as this seems like very scummy nitpicking.

Something can hurt town without helping scum - otherwise the term anti-town wouldn't exist.
Also, there *is* a big difference between something hurting town and something helping Mafia.
Which is what you are saying he is and why he is doing what he's doing.

I am known for it, yes, just not on D1.

Again, are you saying *this playerlist* would tend to make Nacho believe that?
Because that's what you're claiming as a rebuttal to my point - so...y'know, defend the claim.

You know I won't. I want to see you actually have done what you say it should only take you 2 minutes seems you should know which games they are. Right?

Heck no it wouldn't, why would I commit that information to memory?

Thor: its a metashift
Sland: well not if hes scum
Thor: yah it is!
Sland: eh no (explanation)
Thor: LOL NICE PROOF.

So...it's a shift of his scum...wait for it...meta?
Because otherwise you could just go and show me a scum game where he advocated doing this and then we'd have a lynch already.

Its impossible to prove unless you know his alignment.

Agreed.
Which is my point...because I'm not using it as a case to lynch him.
If you want to argue that I have no buisness deciding it's a town tell...well, okay, we can debate that. But if I'm wrong, then so are you, and I'm still correct on the core question of if he should be lynched over the tell.

I see you interpretted what I said in some strange way that makes no sense. I explained everything to him very clearly very recently; he did not understand the concepts, so how in a worse situation can he think its beneficial when so opposed previously? this is the issue and one you seem to avoid.

So your claim is he only sees the benefit of town voting blocks when scum?
Is that where this is going?

[Thor665]

@Slandaar

ok but that doesn't mean that massclaiming is cool for today
i will push it through tomorrow hell yeah
but that doesn't mean it is good for today

I did look more at his stance in that game, y'know, the one where town him was totally against massclaim and that's your case.
Found that quote. Y'know, because he's *totally* against massclaim as town.
Derpy-derpa-derp.

A. By this logic voting for anyone but Nacho is a waste of time, since he'll probably be lynched today.
B. How was your B&B vote supposed to help town, seeing as that lynch is even less likely than fuzzy?

A. Not at all, especially if you oppose the wagon. There's a difference between 'unlikely to have a lynch' and 'you're not even trying to get the lynch to happen'
B. Ah, right, because 2 votes vs. 3 votes. Total value change.

First of all, no I wasn't. If anything I'm softly against it. Second of all, you've yet to tell me what would be wrong with that even if I was.

First of all - yes, you were softly supporting it.
Second off, yes, I did explain how it was a scum strategy and why it was "wrong".

As far as I'm concerned responding to this with an emoticon is like saying "I can't rebut this point but I'm going to hope someone else does it for me or everyone assumes there is something obviously wrong with it". I can see that you're probably doing this explicitly to get on my nerves, and I wish you wouldn't.

Well...considering your "presented case" on Fuzzy. Yeah, I figured what was wrong with it was self-evident to everyone without me having to say it.
Should I just say 'I think you're pulling my leg in an unimpressive way' instead of posting the emoticon? I can do that.

Act like it somehow means something? Townies don't need to manipulate to make their points, and if you do need to then your point wasn't very good in the first place.

It's a point you agreed was true, so...yeah, if I exaggerated reality to show something that was true to be true I really must be weird.
What are you even arguing here? You're just randomly slapping at nothing and implying it is scummy without being able to say it or to show why it is.

It was hostile based on the fact that it was obviously going to result in a big long argument with me, which of course it did.

Yeah, how *dare* we scumhunt!
Wait...

By the way, I may have missed this, but why are you so suspicious of Slandaar? Concisely, please.

Gut.

I'm not really seeing the gameplay shift in Fuzzy. He looks quite similar in that game. He's certainly lacking in explanations, consistent posting, and a lot else. Is it just the lack of bandwagon hopping then?

[Thor665]

I am back to thinking you are scum. why? cos what I said made perfect sense and you know it but are still trying to push a crappy point

Then explain how what I said was hypocritical. Because if what you said made sense then you should be able to do so.

I was asking you to stop that condescending tone with me (you are still patronising but I will deal) and it worked!

that is what that was about. ty

I remember the last time you got dodgy about what you were saying and then went into a 'how dare you personally attack me spiel'

You didn't flip town.

people treat hydras differently a lot of people hate hydras on this site. you either understand this basic concept or you don't

*shrug*

How am I treating you differently?
Again, you're dodging the original point of the question to give a sideways answer.

2. erm that isn't quite what happened

So what did happen?

and I still say you haven't been reading my posts unless they are addressed to you

HUGE SCUMTELL

I've been doing that to a lot of posts this game.
Heck, i still haven't finished my catchup and no one has mentioned it so I'm planning to let that slide too.

I think you are doing the misrepping here and being opportunistic over mine and majiffy's dissonance. majiffy and I argue a lot in mafia we have 2 completely different approaches anybody who has played with us knows this

there is no way you can look at us and not say we are town for bloody obvious reasons but oh hai there are some moar of your posts I wanna address

It's actually quite easy for me to point and you and call you scum.
What are the obvious reasons I'm missing?

[Thor665]

Also, if I'm honest, I think I just consider Red to be the most likely to be lynched of players I want to lynch. B&tB and Slandaar both seem immune from getting votes for some reason.

oh hai guess who the nks are gonna be!

I would love that if it were true.

also the crap about nacho not massclaiming as town is dumb

I agree.

also I guess this is multiball since thor said there will 3 to 4 nks we really need to pay attention to this cos it changes the dynamics

It's because I'm an informed townie or scum, there is no other way to have this information at my fingertips.

[Thor665]

I did. you put a vote on a weak wagon when there were other options in play do you know who does that as a vet player and then tries to berate other players for doing the same it is scum that is who. I was wondering if it was a town tell for you but I guess it isn't

That's not hypocritical - that's play you disagree wit.
You called me hypocritical, so...y'know, back that gak up. Explain the hypocrisy.

and I remember the last time you tried to use this as a scumtell for me. pretty sure you were culted at that point

Did I?
Link to the argument?

How am I treating you differently?
Again, you're dodging the original point of the question to give a sideways answer.

no I am not

Okay, you're not.
So...*how am I treating you differently*
Y'know, the answer to the question you didn't dodge yet again?

So what did happen?

So what did happen?

I mentioned it

I just said it

ahdjkshflwerhjdjsdnisawlqewiz

No, you accused me of not reading *your* posts that aren't directly about me.
That's a different accusation.

It's actually quite easy for me to point and you and call you scum.
What are the obvious reasons I'm missing?

no it isn't. it is why you are going about it all clumsily

...okay...and what are the obvious reasons I'm missing oh wonderful person who isn't dodging questions?

[Thor665]

A. It would be futile, so I haven't bothered.
B. My point wasn't that my vote was better, it was that our votes were essentially the same and you were criticizing me for something you were doing as well.

A. If it's "futile" can't you do something better with your vote?
B. And I noted how they were different, which makes perfect sense considering the reasoning I attacked you for, which was lack of a push. So...yeah, I'm not sold.

I was admitting that I could be wrong in my opposition. Frankly anyone who won't admit they could be wrong is disingenuous. If being lukewarm about things is a scumtell you had better lynch me now because I'm gonna keep doing it. You did explain why it could be a scum strategy, and I explained how the opposite could be too, and you ignored me.

Do you think fencesitting is a scumtell?

Yes, but it would be better if you actually gave reasons for disbelieving me.

I have - I called it a policy lynch case and questioned your logic of not finding it to be playstyle based.
That's actually rather explicitly attacking your points...don't blame me that there aren't many points and they're vague, that's on you.

You're seriously trying to tell me manipulating others' words isn't scummy? Get real.

What I'm saying is pointing out something, and having you agree that it's true, but complaining that I was tricky in trying to get you to admit it isn't exactly manipulating in the way that is scummy.
Could you explain why this is a scum strategy to get people to admit to something that is true?

He has explanations, though, at least sometimes. They aren't always on time, but they exist, and you won't see him calling someone town then heel-face-turning on them with no stated reason.

So is it the heel/face tun that's scummy?

[Thor665]

Specifically I'm referring to the first and third quoteblocks, which I'll ignore for now because of this.

I look forward to you coming back to them though.

Fencesitting can be scummy, but it isn't always. It's scummy if someone does it all the time, but not if they do it once- you're allowed to not be certain about cases every now and then.

Didn't you set it up to be an ongoing thing?
And, also, you apparently then agree with me hat it is quite normal to look at someone doing fencesitty behavior and be disconcerted by it? At that stage, I don't get your issue with me having an issue with your stated stance.

Yes. You could just point out something that's true, and have an honest and straightforward argument, rather than trying to make yourself look smart.

So...it's not scummy, it's Thor being a ponce?
I thought you said it was scummy?

It's all of it. The bandwagon hopping, the sudden reversal on me, and the lack of reasons on everything.

None of which you saw/recall in that other game - and that's why he's scum in this game?

You really screwed those quotes up, Thor.

Why are you ignoring me when I'm telling you I have a town read on Ryu?

1. Yes, I did.

2. Why, would you like to explain to me why you do?

[Thor665]

Give me one example of something that is antitown and does NOT help scum.

Just one.

Mass name claims and Mass PR claims can both easily have this effect.
Immediately off the top of my head - lyncher who knows role name but not player name of target in a mass name claim situation.
The Mass name claim is of negligible gain to scum and town usually, but a third party is dramatically aided by it.
Lyncher targets are almost invariably town.
Therefore that would be anti-town, benefit a scum, and not benefit mafia.

I have played in a newbie game where a JKer was facing off with a single scum - he indicated who he would jail.
The scum no killed for hijinks.
The JKer forgot to send in his jail - a massively anti-town action...but in this case it helped catch the scum.
I was the scum.
I actually think he idiot savanted twice in that game, and both times it ended up helping town even though it was painfully anti-town play that he was so untrustworthy.

But this is all silly debate at this stage - I just wanted to show I could do it.

I took a look and couldn't see any examples, I guess you are lying???
(lol)

That's funny, i was able to find him talking about massclaim on this and other sites.
I guess you are lying (lol).

You are assuming a shift for some reason, there is no reason to do so because as you have said there is no obvious reason for such a shift.

Yeah, but you are arguing that the shift from his town play is why it's scummy - if we don't want to call it a meta shift I suppose I'm fine with that, but it's still ashift in playstyle and I'm not even sure what we're debating at this stage. My point is I don't think, as scum, you would do a dramatic shift - have you seen other players do so and caught them as scum? Dramatic. sudden, one game shifts?
I haven't.

No, clearly not, this seems like a 'word twist' we are talking about benefits of massclaiming one of which is that you get a block of town to work with ie a voting block from the PR's and the obvtownreads. If he understands this on D1 of a game (which was part of his argument) where the benefits from such a thing are small then how can he think its bad on D2 where POE is much stronger with 3 dead VT?

Because he thought two killing roles would invalidate the advantage too quickly in a game with such a small player base.
He was right.
:shrug:

where is the trigger that switched his mentality? where did he become enlightened?

You're asking the wrong person - I asked him, and you seemed interested in seeing an answer...but he never gave me one, i just found an answer I was content with, so I can't answer a question I needed to ask.

This is him supporting a D1 massclaim; Him vehemently refusing on D2 shows he doesn't like EARLY massclaims which is the whole issue.

Yeah...but at that stage is opposing a Day 2 massclaim in a small game the same as supporting a Day 1 massclaim in a large? Aren't those different situations too? Because the core of the part of the tell I liked was the possible hypocrisy and playstyle shift, and I changed on the playstyle portion, and I'm not really seeing the hypocrisy anymore.

Thor, my friend, you have a scum PM don't you?

Yes, I have.

Syryana is town.
I skipped a lot of pages.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Red Ryu
Vote: Desperado

Blatant counterwagon vote.
I'm ot even sure if I think Desp is scummy, he's just null.

[Thor665]

@Mod - V/LA for uncertain period...um...basically it will assuredly be over Sunday the 26th, and may end sooner, but I'm not sure.

Apologies to all.

(Page 82 - for my own records)

[Thor665]

I will admit I haven't read anything from Page 85 till here, and then just lightly skimmed this page.
I'm mostly waiting for the Mod's vote count and then I'll just vote the biggest wagon.

[Thor665]

I'm already voting the biggest wagon.

People should sheep me - my case is that i want a flip, and I think this town needs one at this stage.

Edit: are you bigger now? Is it AP with the most recent - hold on...

[Thor665]

What was your claim this time?

[Thor665]

Well, at least you stuck with your second soft claim.

...eh, that post still feels fairly town and I think it flows with the logic of your fakeclaim gambit.

Yeah, let's lynch B&tB or Desperado.

[Thor665]

I'd compromise Desperado lynch, but I'm not a fan of a B&B lynch.

Move vote?

[Thor665]

so, you want to lynch B&B or Desp,

but you're gonna leave your vote on OS?

that makes sense

You're right, if I was doing that it wouldn't make sense.

[Thor665]

No.

[Thor665]

I'll give you the case based on softclaim point, we can move that to null - though I note that it still holds solid with the fakeclaim point, do you disagree?

Are you trying to convince me only scum would be silly enough to claim number of BPs?
If he's scum and BP, then he's just as foolish to claim it as he would be to do so as town.
If he's scum and not BP then it's a meaningless concern to me, and a actual concern to a anti-town killing role. Meh.
So...null tell, yes?

I'm not on board with it because I am not sure what he's scummy of other than lying about his role, and I've lied about my role as town plenty of times. I don't really think it's an inherent scumtell.
Is there a case on him besides him fakeclaiming and/or lying about his claim in some manner? Like, has he voted in ways that look scummy or something?
I've pointed out actual mental disconnects from town thought process on B&tB and all I get is everyone screaming about how town that slot is - so maybe I'm all gakked up, but I think my case is stronger there than this Oversoul one. It's a 'meh, derp player lynch' and if that's what we want to do let's at least admit it. Heck, i might support it if that was what we were lynching him for - but I don't think he looks scummy.

[Thor665]

Oh, I'm totally with you on the mental disconnects of that player slot. The problem remains that it's a hydra player who apparently does no communicating at all outside the thread. And they don't sign their posts so they can totally dodge comments that make no sense. I don't think I'll ever have a town-read on that slot, but they aren't scummier than Oversoul atm.

it's more than just that - the Mollie head is basically being caught in lies by me, and refusing to respond to the discussion (and refusing in scummy ways)
And the Majiffy head, when questioned on th epush, claims he's not reading any of that gak...while the Mollie head claims he's telling her to back off because her reasons are bad.
I fully understand and agree that they aren't communicating - but above and beyond that, they are not scumhunting, offering misreps, and distancing...from each other. If I just thought they were failing at being a hydra it's one thing, but they have logical inconsistancies that go beyond that, and I think it's showing them not being up to date on each others lies - not just being not up to date on each others reads.

Make sense?

If Oversoul legitimately got a town 2-shot BP role, then why wouldn't his strategy be to lay low and scum-hunt hard? The only thing he has to fear is being mislynched so he... pulls a fake claim gambit and does nothing but be useless? Just mostly ignores the wagon on him and hopes that others launch bigger wagons before deadline?

My issue is - this establishes he did not play it in the optimal method and probably is not as skilled at mafia as you would like him to be.
The question it begs is this: would Oversoul *not* do that as town?
I submit he would do it, and thus the tell is not a good one.

Plus consider the length of time one has to fully consider all the implications of their role after they receive it. Revealing that it's 2-shot means that he thought it up as an aspect to make the claim beyond testable, but didn't think about the pro-town strategies of keeping it quiet. Which means it's a fakeclaim.

The thing is - I believe he's BP.
I don't think he'd try this gambit in a game with likely SK and also likely town killing role if he was not BP.
So, coming at it from that point, it is of little value to him as scum or town to then list his number.

So, I think it's further proof of bad play, and not proof of scum play - do you get my point there, and why do you dismiss that as a response?

[Thor665]

Damn Thor and Kublai epic disscush.

I agree with your analysis of our thoughts and how that pertains to our alignments and the alignments of others.

I'm also curious am I the only one suspicious of the Om hydra?

I know I'm not.

no your case is not stronger than the one you have on us. the one you have on is pathetic

Your refutation of my points is cutting and proves the validity of your above claim - oh, let's hope no one actually *asks* for the refutations of the points, and just bulldog into it acting like we have. yes, that should work nicely.

no cos that isn't quite what happened and you know it

What did happen then?
Because clearly I don't know it.

thor is always taken with a grain of salt

One day someone will explain to me what I do when I look town, and I will be amazed.

I disagree. It's worse than sub-optimal. He allegedly has one weakness and he played in a way that exposes his weakness.

So you're saying he would only do that as scum?

I'll ignore the Day 1 "game with likely SK" for now.

But no, your counter-arguments make no sense to me. By saying "2-shot", he's saying "I'll take you 3 tries to NK me by yourself, so don't bother". Again, think hard about longer-term implications of his fakeclaim. You're smart enough that I shouldn't have to spell it out.

Spell it out, I'm probably not as smart as you think I am.
I grok that the fakeclaim will help pull him into deeper waters...but, y'know, Oversoul playing full bore town Oversoul would not exactly be a shock to make it into deep waters having the rest of town asking 'why is Oversoul not NKed yet!?!?' either, so I'm not sure I get the point if this is it.

[Thor665]

But, taking this trip through your ISO reminded me that I'm unclear on a majority of your stances on players. Can I get your T-->S list?

I hate those and consider them dumb.
Here are just reads;

1. thezmon221 - null
2. CrashTextDummie [1] - townish leaning a touch null
3. Cephir - null leaning a touch scum
4. Nachomamma8 - townish
5. PeregrineV - Eh, I seem to recall DLG as being scummish - so, scummish.
6. Nero Cain - townish (very ish)
7. Bacde - null
8. EddieFenix - null
9. Bulbazak - town
11. Red Ryu - scummish
12. Syryana - null
13. Desperado - null
14. penguin_alien - null
15. Slandaar - scummy
16. Oversoul - townish
17. Seanald - scummy
18. ThAdmiral - town
19. Haylen - null
20. Kublai Khan - town
21. Amethyst Kitty (Malakittens+MS Marangal) - scummy
22. !BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy+pirate mollie) - scummy
23. Om the Destroyer (Human Destroyer+Om of the Nom) - town
24. ArcAngel9 [1] - town

[Thor665]

18. ThAdmiral - town

Hmmm?

Why, do you find him scummy or something?

nacho is scum

For...what, the crime of semi-buddying a player you think is also scum?
You are scum - your reads lack any actual sense to them and you are frightened at the thought of explaining them.
Remember our last exchange when I called you out to explain multiple things?
Yeah...you dodged it all, you didn't even try, nor did you even at least suggest i was dumb to ask. You just acted as though it had never happened.
Because you are scum.
And town is too silly to notice.

also this list is absolutely terrible and if os turns out to be groupscum then ak is probably cleared and most of the peeps who stirred up multiball wifom are probably scum

Ah, right, so my list of reads, that I didn't even want to present, is "generically terrible" for "Reasons to be explained...never!"
Okay then, that totally proves your point, yet again, that I am scum...oh...wait...

I see what you did there

and he gets away with it!!!

Yes, because...what...I'm Oversoul's scumbuddy scared to bus him and set up an intent to random vote and then was scared when I realized it was my scumbuddy?
Is that your theory?
You should admit it if it is, so Majiffy can once again declare your case is bad but that he's not paying attention to what you're doing.

That is some decadent sarcasm.

I should hope so, I work hard at it.

I can't argue that Oversoul's play has given scum-Oversoul a great advantage in this game. But I am arguing that a town-Oversoul read makes no sense given that his actions do not match his words, which reveals a duplicious nature.

I would counter that his actions do match his words '

taken in the awareness that he does not play the game the way you do

'
Functionally you're accussing him of weak scumhunting here, lacking proof that he is a strong scumhunter when town.
Hint: he isn't.

Mind you, I can explain Oversoul's behavior post-wagon as being very scummy. You?

Post which wagon?
I'm a good scum player - I can explain anyone's behavior in this game as scummy if I was so inclined, that's why I say 'everything's wifom'. The point is, I can more readily explain it as awkward town, and the awkward town story feels a little more legit to me than the awkward scum one. I think we can agree he's playing awkward, and I would like to think we can agree that he plays awkward regardless of alignment. At that point we need to look at the awkwardness and decide if it's a scum awkward or not.
I lean no.
I think he's an okay info/policy lynch, but I frankly expect him to flip town and think town has some alternate info/policy lynches of equal overall value as far as info for Day 2.

So you are a Thor alt then? Why are Thor's word in your post?

I'm not sure if I want to leave Slandaar with 'sarcasm opportunity' blueballs or not...

[Thor665]

"Thor's actions are *absurdly* scummy.

...vote the guy who is the one Thor is clearly not protecting if we wish to presume Thor is scum and his actions are scummy.

I have no idea why more people don't have issues with you of the Mollie/Majiffy hydra.

[Thor665]

*or

[Thor665]

Your analysis is quite fantastic Thor I applaud the effort you have put into it;

Thor/Bulba/Ceph/Fuzzy and Thez

Oversoul - 9 (Desperado, Kublai Khan, Syryana, Nachomamma8, Cephrir, Bulbazak, thezmon221, PeregrineV, Nero Cain)

Desperado - 6 (ArcAngel9, Thor665, Om the Destroyer, Red Ryu, ThAdmiral, Oversoul)

What exactly are these 'issues'?

Who are the strong scum reads amongst your list?
Because you're calling what I did absurdly scummy - and coming along with it.
So...what is your opinion of their votes and reasoning.

Also, it's blatantly obvious they're not all scum just by that vote count.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

Also, in other news, B&tB continues to dodge.
Town continues to think they're town.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

Nor mine, actually.

[Thor665]

I mean, hell, I asked you questions *last page* you haven't answered - much less previous ones in the thread.

Meanwhile Slandaar has issues with Nacho dodging my question, then calls me scummy for not pursuing it, then doesn't blink when you do it multiple times.

Not that I'm saying I'm fething brilliant over here. But...if the shoe fits.

[Thor665]

So you accuse me of something - I offer a dismissive reply - and your answer is "well...I'm working on multiple potential theories"

Yeah?

Name some others. I'd love to hear the other Thor=scum for that action theories.

Also, if you want to look back and answer some of my other questions, that would also be sexy.

[Thor665]

If it's multiball then how am I scummy for not being willing to vote him - what, he's scum from the other team and I'm scared to make that lynch happen because...um...wait...how is this scummy?
And, lso, again, if he's town, how would it be scummy for me to not want to lynch him, when the entire *concept* of what you're saying I'm doing is scummy is based on the idea I was trying to easily slide my vote onto someone.

Y'know, both of those reasons actually suggest what I did is NOT scummy, right?

Maybe I will re-ask them.
Or I'll just lord along claiming they make you look like scum for not answering.
One or the other.

Explain your alternate theories though - I'm excited now.
One day town will start reading what you're posting, and then you're in trouble.

[Thor665]

Aw, who am I kidding?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4966508
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4985183
And also when I asked you why my reads were so terrible it needed generic mention with no explanation nor actual purpose behind saying it was terrible. I know it was just a generic attack to scream 'scum' but, y'know, you're supposed to fake making it look like legit scumhunting.

I wouldn't mind seeing, specifically, the hypocrisy question, the reads attack, and the refutation of my case via 'that's not what happened' all explained and answered as the most important questions of the lot.
But I'm sure you answered ALL of them already, so just. y'know, answer via quotes of your previous answers.

[Thor665]

And it just occured to me that with her really sloppy BS 'working on multiple theories' answer she went so far as to consider that it's multiball or that OS is town - but never that I am town.
Shocking.
But at least she's *really* considering ALL the angles...y'know, just so long as the primary angle is 'Thor did something scummy' and not 'IS what Thor did scummy'
Even though, y'know, two of her three possibilities are 'No' in that regard.

People still town read that slot apparently.

[Thor665]

Oh - explain my scum motivation in those instances then?

[Thor665]

Because clearly it was scummy of me to come in and set myself up to vote someone who *YOU'RE SAYING I'M NOT ALIGNED WITH* and then...wimping out of doing it because...I'm scum and don't want to follow through on the setup I just setup...because...yes...that's how I play scum...I set myself up to vote someone and then, when I realize I will have to vote someone I'm not scum with I get scared and don't want to do it, because scum Thor *hates* having to vote people he's not aligned with. That's his scum meta, don't'cha'know?

[Thor665]

it isn't dodging the questions it is me blatantly avoiding going 1 on 1 with you cos I can't. I am not interested in a discussion that will only end in futility on my end cos I can't out talk you. here is the thing: you know perfectly well that I don't always play logically I am more of a rhythm and gut player. I can grasp how people think and spot inconsistencies but whether or not their reasoning matches with how they normally think.

So...when you said I was hypocritical, and I said 'no I wasn't' you didn't want to point out my hypocrisy because I would be able to out talk you and you're not really logical.
...isn't that just admitting...that, basically, you lied about there being hypocrisy from me?
Also, when you say that 'isn't how something happened' and I say 'how did it happen?' you don't answer, again, not because facts were twisted by me, but because you fear the word war with me.
Again, this should be a *factual* thing on your side, so it's not about a word war, it's about pointing out what happened.
And you don't want to do that...
And you think I'm *nitpicking* when I catch you saying stuff that can't be supported and calling you on it.
And your defense from me calling you on your lies is not to defend your lies because *I'm* so darn clever with words.

Are you serious here?
Like, you can't point out the hypocrisy I did because...I will...what, talk the universe into not noticing it's hypocrisy?

Bullsmurf.
You're scum.

if you are town then show me you are town motivation cos I am simply not seeing it. all you are doing is running around screaming that slaandy and I are scum which is pretty convenient cos we are the only ones fosing you.

Point to either of you FoSing me *before* I called you scum.
That would amuse me.
I don't think it happened in either case.
Or...wait, will this question bore you because I can out-talk reality?

cos if it is multi-ball it might be a wave

if he is town then you would want to distance yourself from os cos you know his alignment. the desperado lynch reeks IMO and you are not even looking at it. did you look at his posts? I see town flail not scum flail show me where you see scum flail

A wave?

And...distancing...and I will choose to set myself up to vote someone, and then distance from it when i realize I set myself up to vote town...
Could you explain that one a bit more, why set myself up for the vote and then decide not to do it when i realize *gasp* I'll vote town!?!

Also, I don't really give a fig about the Desperado 'case' I don't have one and am mostly bandwagoning for lulz and because I think it's the best counterwagon. He gut pinged for me a bit with his Nacho push, and that's decent enough for me considering my read on OS.
Where do you see town flail specifically? I didn't even notice flail, personally.

[Thor665]

Also, it just occured to me - you literally just admitted to not answering my questions *as a strategy to deal with ScumThor*
When LITERALLY MOMENTS AGO you claimed you'd answered everything from me and acted bewildered that I thought you hadn't.

[Thor665]

Despite the extensive interactions with Thor I could still see them being scumbuddies. Maybe not from Thor's angle, though, I should take a look at that.

I have a dream, that one day Thor will be judged based on the quality of his interactions, and not the terror of the supposed ability to, apparently, fake any and all interactions...ever!

Ffullisade: Two things: 1.) The Thor/Mollie interaction from d1. Mollie actually was dodging Thor's questions. It was enough to move them out of the town pile.

Holy cats! Someone actually noticed!

I'll be focusing more on reads than on strategy probably. I know my strengths and weaknesses.

Want to address your partner's question dodging?
Is that one of your strengths?

maybe mollie changed her scum meta to match her town meta but I have a good reason to believe that isn't the case, which means you are in a town slot

Have you

read

listened to Audio Mafia?
Could you tell me if what I caught her for there is consistent with her town meta?
Because she's doing the *same thing* in his game.

I'd like to know what pushes look Genuine because I havn't really paid attention to KK and I think he looked pretty bad towards the end of the day yesterday

Why?

anyway,, I want to hear peoples opinions, on Why Syr?

Who had him as a scum read?
My recollection is 'nobody'
I sort of figured that was the reason to kill him. Y'know, it's a crazy thought, but it might be right.

Vote: Haylen

Baaaaa!

[Thor665]

Want to address your partner's question dodging?
Is that one of your strengths?

Hello! I've been looking forward to playing a game with you sometime.

I can't answer questions about day 1 beyond about page 15 yet. I imagine questions about Mollie's play will be better answered by her, though.

- f

Oh, I KNOW they would be better answered by her.
But, y'know, the whole 'dodging' thing is something of an impediment to the entire discussion.
So I just decided she's scuma and needs death. Let me know if you have any deeper thoughts about that one.

Of course I noticed. I see a lot more than people give me credit for. I just had other things on my mind then, plus I was still trying to sort you out, so I thought I'd just watch and let things play out.

Did you conclude anything beyond Thor is a Thor read?
I'm getting that to an annoying level this game, when I think I should already look like obv. not Blue scum - and then people might even take a further leap with their 'scum would be aware it's multiball' and look again at Thor's 'scummy' reasons to defend Oversoul, and then, y'know, go crazy and help lynch Fullisade or Slandaar, or something...
One can hope.

And yes, I say that with full awareness of where my vote is - y'know, before Bacde trips over himself to scream excitedly about it.
He can just shoot me tonight for lulz in any case.

Spoiler: <<< I'm running out of ways to say, "late mod-edited-VCA" >>>

Haylen - 4 (Cephrir, Om the Destroyer, Nero Cain, Thor665)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (Bacde)
EddieFenix - 1 (Amethyst Kitty)
Bacde - 1 (Bulbazak)
Desperado - 1 (ArcAngel9)
Thor665 - 1 (Slandaar)
Cephrir - 1 (CrashTextDummie)

With

21

alive, it's

11

to lynch.

[Thor665]

Though, actually, who was it who was actually telling me that OS's claims didn't make logical sense considering his eventual BP claim?
That person needs to sheep me more, but I want to call them town at this stage.
I sorta think it was KK though...so...meh.

[Thor665]

@AK - I actually agree with him that your defense was pretty lackluster.
I'll accept that as a potential ding on him, but he seems a little too frothy for a Day 1 lynch in a large to be a worthy lynch option today, if that's what you're trying to sell me on. Also, frankly, him actually saying it all lacked logic - that feels honest. Wrong, sure. Dense, possibly. But honest, and that's a town tell - unless you're saying he was hunting other group scum poorly or something?

What point are you trying to make?

As regards Haylen, I dunno, haven't even seen one of her posts because it all happened in stuff I skipped. I'm blatant sheeping, didn't you notice the 'Baaaa'?

@I don't know, is it true? She's your partner, and if you're town I would like to think she's not lying to you, right? As to what page it started on...I'm pretty sure you could go use Ctrl+F and the ISO feature as well as I could.

[Thor665]

@KK - last I checked I was the first player to call out AK for being scummy, I'd be thrilled to peaches with that wagon.

I'd be happier with a Slandaar or FFulissade one though.

@Thez - I've seen it swing both ways, so I see no reason not to expect scum to be involved in the neighbor goulash at some level. Why, what are you suggesting we do with that info? I could probably randomly name any set of 6 players and probably end up with at least one scum amongst them - so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

@People paying any attention at all to the Vig claim -

[Thor665]

So, you're calling him town then?
Excellent - so, again, why are we bothering to discuss it?

[Thor665]

also "dodging thor"

majiffy was telling me to leave him alone. so I was ignoring him/putting him off cos he was not in our crosshairs.

then he gorilla fisted into mine

that's the story

No, "the story" was that you intentionally didn't respond to me because word wars with scumThor = doomz!
Then you acted confused that I had issue with you not answering things because "you think you answered everything I asked"
Y'know, even though it was your strategy to deal with me by *not* answering everything I asked.

Honestly, who knows what the story is now.
But you are right about one thing.
It is all a story.

Bulbazak has noticed now.
Soon others will too.
Then ropey neck hug time.

[Thor665]

And, with the V/LA, I do realize I haven't weighed in much on the Arc Angel question.
I have, frankly, found a decent pile of the posts to feel townish to me, while being mixed with a lot of useless. If anyone here is an SK faking being a vig, I support shooting her in the face.
I don't support a lynch of her though.

[Thor665]

Thor I get the feeling you are trying to dodge me.

I get the feeling there's actually nothing to dodge.
And you can remove the 'I get the feeling' and also have the reality of the situation explained int hat sentence.
But, please, tell me what I'm avoiding.

Why do you think I am scum?

As already mentioned, gut.
If I had to put it into words, it was your awkward way of attacking Bulb for his reasoning behind attacking Ceph who you also thought was scum when his reasoning, at worst, is a rather shockingly common scumtell lots of people use (and it always looks weak as sin regardless). Even moreso, you attacked him over it when his ending conclusion was 'null tell'. I mean, seriously - you attacked a null tell and complained that his read on the slot was unclear and muddled.

Yeah...shock.

Then, toss in your underpresence combined with the slow and not impressive push on me for rather awkward reasons and I continue to hold the scum feel.

Vote Ffullisade now?

[Thor665]

@Slandaar - and even if you don't want to vote that slot, then at least address my case on it.
I would love to see that.

[Thor665]

1. You're a hydra with her, like Majiffy before you. You *are* accountable for what she says and does just as she is. I am not playing with two slots, I am playing with two players in one slot. If one of you drops a scumtell and one of you drops a towntell then I don't have two different reads, I have one combined read. I vastly don't understand either your or Majiffy's desperate desire to distance from your ruddy other hydra head.

2. I know my reactions aren't scummy, unless it's scummy to point out lies and say 'oi!' nowadays. I'm pretty sure it isn't.

3. She finds me scummy for 'knowing my game' and calling things I'm doing scummy...as long as she squints and turns her head sideways to justify how she hasn't seen me doing the exact things she's calling scummy when I'm town. Which, y'know, is kind of a big deal that she's doing that.

4. Okay...you lack a grasp of my reads after reading my iso...which includes one of those gawdawful read walls, which, y;know, presents my reads. And, yeah, brilliant to have spotted that I'm not likely scum with Red, this has already been discussed in thread with most people taking the 'oh gawds! Paranoia of Thor!!!' approach. That said, I'm intrigued that you clearly have as a basis me being slightly correct on Red, but not pushing it hard, and me being damnably wrong on you, and pushing it hyper hard, and then taking those two thoughts and going 'want to pay attention to this guy's reads, they need weight!' I look forward to that thought being expanded upon.

[Thor665]

I'd like to know what pushes look Genuine because I havn't really paid attention to KK and I think he looked pretty bad towards the end of the day yesterday

Why?

Amethyst also sidled away from this question.
I know now you're thinking the slot looks townish, or at least less scummish, but I still want this answered.

[Thor665]

1. accountable does not mean able to answer for, which is what you asked me to do, and I thought you asked Majiffy to as well, but god that iso I don't want to look for the posts again

That might be true if you were a replacement for her or I asked you to answer for Majify's actions.
You can still communicate with your hydra partner, last I checked.

I mean, we're getting into a breaking of the setup here, but it could be conceivable that we could end up using it for PoE later on in the game, to some sort of extent. If a pair of neighbors dies, and we're left with two sets, then maybe we can discern between the two? That would conceivably be a 50% chance of hitting scum right there. I wouldn't use it too much, but I would keep the information in the back of my mind when looking for associations of people.

Blah, blah, blah - sure, why not? Now that we all agree it's potentially useful *down the road* let's pay attention to the scenery outside the window at this point in the adventure.
I want to see you dig in, not dance around on distant theoreticals and act like you're digging.

What are you even talking about?

Quotes are required here.

Page 27.
Your post there.
That, y'know, I called scummy at the time.

Which obviously can apply here; And yes Thor you can answer this.

How does this apply, and what question are you asking - I don't grok either.

This is about average for me as town; you however ARE an underpresence. If my push was slow what is yours?

Your push is slow and bad.
My push on you is not fast, I'll agree...but then I'm pretty clearly focusing elsewhere, while you are clearly focused n me. So...I don't get what point you hope to make other than a really weak discredit attempt.

How is it you have no actual reasoning Thor? Doesn't seem like you.

I do have reasoning.
On my primary push.
I understand that you are wetting yourself in terror that I'm aware you're scummy, but your desperate need to defend from a push that is barely even happening is, really, just a further reason in my head to hold to the read I have and to ignore your weak posting thus far.

Also - good job addressing the Ffullsilade case as asked. Thanks for that. I know you're 'average' for yourself, but I don't recall question dodging and shoddy scared sidestepping as 'average' for you.
Mah bad!

[Thor665]

What are you even talking about?

Quotes are required here.

Page 27.
Your post there.
That, y'know, I called scummy at the time.

I mean, where is this even coming from?

Sland: WHy U find me scumz!?!
Thor: Well, it would be when you attacked Bulb for his read on Ceph while you also thought Ceph was scum, and your attack was basically 'your nullish scum read is weak'.
Sland: Quotes needed!!!

Seriously? Like, you can't iso yourself for three seconds to find what is *blatantly* something that happened? Unless you think i made up a highly specific moment, but surely you recall suspecting Ceph, and I would like to think you are at least aware you dinged on Bulb at some stage, so...what, you need quotes because you think I'm lying? Clearly I'm not, so at that point what you're saying here is "I'm too lazy to ISO myself!!!" while acting like it's a rebuttal or something.

The heck?

[Thor665]

1. Working on it. But one would tend to suppose, that if you were town, and your partner was lying, tunneling, and playing - by your own apparent admission here - poorly, that you might want to...y'know, affect that in some positive manner. Especially since you seem to think I'm town and that my reason for attacking her makes sense, two points which she dramatically disagrees with.

2. I dislike all cursing insomuch as I think it's an incredibly fake way to add weight to words. Thus I replace all uses of it with 'Smurf' in order to highlight just how functional it is to the argument. I also just find it generally low-brow. At least when speaking it slips out innocently in people, but when typing people who *choose* to include it would be like people choosing to include all their pauses and uses of 'uh' and 'um' when typing. It's silly.

[Thor665]

1. Nope. I don't think she's lying.

And I don't see how you get that from what I've said

.

I said she was lying - I said that you were aware she was playing poorly.
But good use of the bold tag to refute something I didn't say while complaining that I said something you didn't say.
:shrug:

As far as tunnelling, where?

Me.
What other agenda has she advanced today?
Take your time, I'll wait for you to count them up.
Oh...right...none, so...y'know - tunneling. This isn't rocket science. it's Mafia.

When she and I synch up today, my ISO impressions will be on the agenda.

I await with baited breath.

I didn't dodge you. I said if I missed something you asked it was probably cos majiffy was telling me to leave you alone.

While...having as your strategy *not to discuss things with me*.
I don't see how these two stories mesh.
Explain?

where is your vote? not on us iirc and it wasn't on us yesterday either.

Wait...I *wasn't* voting you yesterday?
...since when?
Because according to the Mod I was, and according to my memory I was, and according to you complaining that I voted you yesterday I was...so...whut?

so if we are such a strong scumread then why no vote? why are you sheeping cephrir over one of your top scumreads? <-----this does not add up

Are you serious? Because that blatantly adds up and is a normal occurrence.

that is some fancy tiptapping you are doing right there, is there moar? what you are trying to paint as "distancing" is called M-E-D-I-A-T-I-O-N and is giving me space to answer what is directed to me. stop trying to paint our hydra dissonance as scummy cos that is not a scumtell and you know it. also my hair is ruddy not my role pm.

1. Okay, so you guys are m-e-d-i-a-t-i-n-g and thus *are* discussing reads with each other and thus *should* be able to answer me when I ask one of you what's up with the other? Because that's what I'm doing.

2. Point to me calling you on dissonance. I have never once had an issue with you having two different reads. I have very much had issue with you having different stories, and moreso have mostly had that only with one head self-contained from the other. If you are using 'dissonance' to mean 'has issues with head A telling one version of how things happened and Head B having a different story' then *yes* I am calling you on dissonance, and am quite willing to back that play. But that is not the normal 'hydra dissonance' issue most people have, so I want to clarify that.

oh I know how this one goes down. where is the lie?

We are actively discussing it currently, and I've hardly been shy about mentioning it - the issue of your question dodging and the reasons behind it. You have provided two different responses and both do not seem able to be true concurrently - therefore one is a lie and you are making answers up to defend yourself, and therefore are not town, and are scum.
That's how the tell works.

I find you scummy cos you are doing scummy things. don't try to pretend otherwise.

You find me scummy for doing things that are;
1. Not scummy.
and
2. Even if we want to live in a universe where we decide they are scummy - I blatantly do them as town and defend them as normal, so they are null tells even then, and worse off you should be well aware I do them as town since you've seen me do this exact sort of thing before.

Don't try to pretend otherwise.

I am lazy I am not going to try and figure out what you are talking about and I don't remember everything I say.

What is wrong with it? Why can't I think they are both scum? it is not his conclusion that is the issue its the way he got there in the first place.

How was how he reached a conclusion of 'null leaning slight scum' an issue to you? You made a lot of noise on the issue, but I failed to see his scum agenda there.
Clarify?

Anyways the point is simple; as Thor you have said it just means you disagree with my scumhunting as if I were scum I would be hunting the other team... so, what is your point? I do want an answer to this.

I still don't feel you're making this question easy to understand. I'm going to translate it and then answer. You need more comma use, I think.

Your point is Thor has said he disagrees with your scumhunting. But you are saying, if you were scum, you'd be hunting the other team, so what is my point?

My point is - you don't look like scum hunting the other team, you look like a player lazily hunting lynches. That's scummy. Sure, I suppose we can make the argument that, as scum, you should be hunting the other team, but even if that holds out then as town you should be hunting...y'know, anything. Lack of hunting and attacks that seem opportunistic are the issue, and I don't see how the theory scum you hunting for another team should disprove that due to your overall style at the moment.

Did that correctly assess your point and answer it?

They are town, I really don't have an answer for your 'case' but I don't need one town do things that don't make sense a lot of the time I can just tell they are town.

So...just 'gut' then?
Why doesn't your gut have an answer to my case?
Do you think Mollie lied? Y/N
Then, with regards to that answer, why do you think she did what she did as town?

Thor is clearly pushing on our slots the most, yet he is voting someone entirely different and then has the audacity to suggest my push on him is slow.

Your push on me is slow.
I don't think you can justify my push on Mollie as slow without putting a lot of egg on your face.
I have agreed my push on you is slow...but don't see how that is an issue.
And, what is wrong with my current vote? Are you saying I have to constantly vote Mollie regardless of what else is happening because I'm sure she's scum and no one else is? Explain that thought more.

[Thor665]

@Slandaar
@Mollie

Also, both of you have played with me enough, I suspect, to hear my rants about how useless one vote wagons are.
So...y'know, both of you can clarify why this is scummy of me some more. I'd love to hear it.

[Thor665]

I suppose if you want to twist "majiffy asked me to leave you alone so I did" into a "strategy" to not discuss things with you okay well then. I guess you were able to discern my supposed intent. where are you going to go with that?

I was actually just using your own answer, when you said that *was* your strategy - or are we now claiming I misunderstood when you said that?

Wait...I *wasn't* voting you yesterday?
...since when?
Because according to the Mod I was, and according to my memory I was, and according to you complaining that I voted you yesterday I was...so...whut?

your vote landed on os.

No...according to my memory, and the mod vote counts, my vote landed on Red Ryu...y'know, a scum player. And not on OS, whom i called town, and he was.
I also voted you.
So, now that we've proven that your read on me is based, at least partially, off two totally not true things...are you still scum reading me for this?

this. so much of this. walk me through the process where sheeping someone whom you were suspicious of during the prior day and haven't given out a town read on should take precedence over your own strong scum read is a normal occurrence. cos I am just not seeing it.

Explain how it's pro-scum play?
Maybe I consider Cephir's push on Red Ryu to make him look more town in retrospect?
Maybe I'm curious to get a read on Haylen, a player I've admitted to having not read any of and who replaced into a rather blatant null/lurker slot?
Maybe I just want to start the push on a wagon to see what reactions I get to it.

Y'know, the usual *totally insane* things that no town would do, because it is so blatantly scummy play.

okay

I'll at least admit your quick back off of at least this misrep attack on me is a nice moment - it's a shame it took you this long and you are still glomming onto so much of the rest, while not bothering to analyze for yourself the value of your read on me considering how you're clearly using wrong info, conclusions, and thoughts.

no. and more no. but let us walk through the responses that you think you are reading and how they are completely different and therefore could not be congruent with each other.

Yes, and more yes (man, this is easy to counter with)
Here is the conversation as I understand it;

Thor: U iz dodgin' scum-gal!
Mollie: Dodgin' whut na0w?
Thor: Dodgin' mah queshtins!
Mollie: I am answered all ur kweshtins! Link to ones I not!
Thor: (giant honkin' wall of links)
Mollie: Oh...well...uh..y'see, I was *intentionally* not answerin'...cause...u scumz...wit scary mind powah and u eat me aliive in werd war!
Thor: ...den Y U say U answerin' if U *plannin' not answer? Why not just say 'I plannin' not answer!
Mollie: ... ...whut?
Thor: That is a lie, only one be true, can't coexist.
Mollie: Nuh-uh!
Thor: Yes.
Mollie: Y no coexist?

And now we're here.
Here's the point - you have answered a lot of my questions with dodges. You have supplied a number of reasons for those dodges. Here's a quick list in (I believe) chronological order.
1. You were ignoring me.
2. Majiffy told you to back off of me.
3. You think you answered everything, but I should re-ask the ones you didn't answer...but you answered them all.
4. You were intentionally not answering me because that's some sort of anti-Thorscum strategy for you...even though it is a strategy you used as scum against town Thor in Audio mafia.

3 and 4 don't gel very well. If you were intentionally not answering me about stuff, why would you act confused and want links to questions I had asked you? After all - you *know* you haven't answered things. That's the ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT YOU WERE DOING. Like, that's the goal you were going for, to not answer things. So why act confused by me taking issue with you not answering things?

That suggests that either 3 or 4 is a lie.
If either of them are a lie then I think you're scum, because town you being honest about 4 wouldn't have said 3, and town you being honest about 3 wouldn't have tried to dodge again.

And that's the lie
And that's why they don't mesh together.
But, please, tell me what I'm missing here.

what is bugging me and is making me really sticky with my fos on you is that you have replaced into a game for me before and know my responses don't always make sense to most people. that you are not town reading me is bothering me especially since it is based on weird reasoning; it is why I am not reading you as town.

So you're not reading me as town because I suspect you because you have bad logic...when I HAVE CAUGHT YOU AS SCUM BECAUSE OF YOUR BAD LOGIC IN THE PAST.
Yeah...tell me more.

I have not seen you be super dumb and trolleytrack on town before, no.

Are you kidding me?
Remember Audio Mafia.
REMEMBER AUDIO MAFIA - I TRAINED YOU WITH A DIESEL ENGINE OF PURE TRAIN POWER STRAIGHT THROUGH THE HEART.
You are, functionally, committing the scumtell you're attributing to me now. Fake awareness of meta.
Except I actually have a reason not to take 'lack of logic' as a town tell from you.
And I also have a reason to take 'dodging and trying to avoid around things' as a scumtell from you.
What have you got?
Scum.

see this is where I wonder if you honestly think I am on the opposite scum team as you cos of the winky face. I am not scum and you will get no cred with our lynch if that is what you are angling for. cos we are town.

Yeah, me and my scumbuddies got you via PoE, soon the rest of town will sheep me and I'll be in the winner's circle for sure.

[Thor665]

That cuts the entire series of points I made to the core and totally invalidates everything I mentioned.
Brilliant work.

[Thor665]

Heck, you still didn't even manage to *generically* describe why what I'm doing is scummy.

[Thor665]

no. what I am saying is that you are using certain words to ascribe an intention that I don't have. that is what I am saying

What intentions am I ascribing to you that you didn't have?
Specifically.

not for that

Okay, so we will move past you making up my voting history in your own head and not react or change our stance in any way.
Meanwhile we will continue to accuse Thor of misrepping us when the only one who has been proven to be using false info is Mollie.
No admission of this will happen.

I thought I did.

Quote the explanation?

okay. or *maybe* you are just scum. *maybe* it really is that simple.

SO...you're just going to ignore the multiple points I noted that suggested what I'm doing is town play and settle for 'but *maybe* you're scum!' as the rebuttal?
If this is a scumtell, shouldn't my answers all be provably false because town wouldn't do what I'm doing?
And if my answers aren't provably false, haven't I just shown how it's not a scumtell?

okay

This is Mollie agreeing with my understanding of the conversation.
Which means she agrees with it.
Which means I am amazed she has previously acted so confused about where we are in the conversation.

2 precludes 1

I agree that those seem futzy too, and called you on them at the time. 3 and 4 are my main concerns though.

I think you should ask the ones you

feel

like I didn't answer, cos I

feel

like I answered them all.

I...did ask them again.
Then you dodged them again.
Why do I need to ask them again a third time?
I *feel* like you dodged them twice so I *feel* like I don't need to ask them again...?

I didn't ignore you in audio mafia what are you even talking about here. one minute you are saying that I WAS ALL OVER YOU and the next you are saying that I ignored you wth

I said I (Thor) was all over you (Mollie)
You did ignore me. Remember when I asked you to explain how me 'changing the order of your actions' was a scumtell on me?
And you dodged and avoided and said 'but I already answered that'?
And then you were scum.
Y'know, kind of *exactly* what is happening here?
Yeah...

I didn't want links I wanted you to restate your questions. and I think I *did* answer your questions you are the one who keeps pushing this dumb agenda. you know who pushes dumb agendas it is scum that is who

You do realize I already provided you links to the dodged questions once already and you responded at that time that you were intentionally dodging those questions - why do you want to answer them now? And the 'I didn't want links, I wanted re-stated questions' answer...seriously? Why? Was I hard to understand the first time through?

except I didn't dodge.

it isn't dodging the questions it is me blatantly avoiding going 1 on 1 with you cos I can't.

Oh, okay, right- you didn't *dodge* you *blatantly avoided*.
Should I start using that instead od 'dodge' now?
Fine, you blatantly avoided my questions, this is different from dodging because...well...um...actualy, both of them result in you not answering the question and acting like it was never asked, so maybe it's just that you didn't do it subtly? I guess that's the difference.
Big whoop.

that it does not qualify as a lie.

How does it not? I asked you to explain that.
This doesn't qualify as explanation.

wrt the bold: there is a disconnect here. I didn't target you in audio for meta reasons, never went after you for them so what in the world are you even talking about

I'm talking about your play in this game.
You are aware, for meta reasons, that I do tunnel as town.
Because you've seen it.
You've been scum and seen it.
It happened TO YOU.
Then, in this game, you claim...Thor wouldn't derp tunnel like this as town!

...so...yeah.

Spoiler: <<< A late mod-edited votecount into a wallpost? So much for getting anyone to read this. >>>

Haylen - 4 (Cephrir, Om the Destroyer, Nero Cain, Thor665)

Thor665 - 2 (Slandaar, ffullisade)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (Bacde)
Desperado - 1 (ArcAngel9)
Cephrir - 1 (CrashTextDummie)

With

21

alive, it's

11

to lynch.

[Thor665]

Well lets start from the beginning of my post shall we;

How is saying someone doesn't have experience playing with some of the more prominent players in the game useful? is it scumhunting? clearly not; so why is it in his thought process?

I will even make this simple for you Thor! Multiple choice question! I am such a nice guy!

A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort
B) Well I am Thor here is a long rant as to why this makes complete sense!

So you were calling him scummy because he included a piece of information that you thought was a random add on in order to come to a conclusion of 'null-scum'?
Why do you think, as scum, he felt the need to amp up his nullish case on a player?

What we were talking about Thor if you need reminding is thus;
Thor: this post is bad
Sland: why?
Thor: bad scumhunting
Sland: Well If I were scum it is still legit scumhunting to me
Thor: WHAT? NO! MY POINT IS THAT YOU SHOULD BE SCUMHUNTING ANYTHING!!!

Here's my understanding of the conversation;

Thor: this post is bad
Sland: why?
Thor: bad scumhunting
Sland: Well If I were scum it is still legit scumhunting to me
Thor: Yeah...except you're not actually scumhunting in any real way at all.
Sland: WHAT? NO! I AM AND IT'S BAD SIMPLY BECAUSE OF YOUR OPINION!!!
Thor: I'm actually surprised you even went that route - you're not even trying to explain how your scumhunting is 'any good at all'
Sland: BUT, I HUNT!
Thor: Your defense is even, 'if I was scum, wouldn't I be hunting as hard as I could anyway?' when you're not even hunting - you're banging your head against someone who has you as a secondary/tertiary read and isn't even pushing on you right now. You're not even playing the game, you're just annoyed I have a scumread on you.
Sland: I...WHU...BUT...BUT MY SCUMHUNTING...
Thor: What scumhunting? I bet if I looked at everything you did today the sum total would be "Waaaah! Thor suspects me and I disagree!"
Sland: ...I USE CAPSLAWK![/quote]

Does that help clarify why this argument doesn't exactly sell me?
Help me lynch B&tB and maybe I'll give you a slide for a while. Y'never know.

I have taken this part from the rest because it doesn't fit there; Why is it you didn't say this previously?

Previously when?

Do go on about how my attacks have been opportunistic.

I have, that would be that dink on Bulb. You other attacks are Nacho wagon (a totally hotly opposed wagon to be sure) and this awkward side swinging at me inbetween as smoke screen.
Why, what interesting attacks have you done?

You have played with me enough Thor you must have heard one of my many townread rants before so I won't go on. How is this scummy of me? I'd love to here why.

Quote where I called it scummy of you and then I'll answer.
You derp.

Going back to the Mollie question - why can't you explain her town motivation for the action/lie?
Even further, look at my last post or two with her where I point out she's lying in her meta awareness of me.
Then go listen to how I caught her in Audio Mafia and what she was doing, which is identical to here in many ways.
Then tell me you think it's legit the stance she is taking about my ability to read her.
Seriously.
Go do this.

Its all relative; If you believe my push on my top scumread is slow when every post for the last 50 of mine have been trying to lynch you then your push on myself what is that? what is your push on mollie hydra?

My push on the Mollie hydra has been intensely stronger than your push on me.
I have, multiple times, agreed that my push on you isn't strong. In fact, it's one of the things that confuses me because you're so freaked out by it that you're basing an attack around it. Which, as I've said, is strengthening the read.

Slower than mine on you and that is the point as you know.

Why do you think that? I attacked them early and often, have called them out for major scumtells, and have consistantly invited and demanded people to comment on those scumtells.
How would you have me do it 'faster'?
Serious question.

If you want to start a wagon on someone you must vote them otherwise why would anyone else? It is the start of day not like deadlines are a concern at all.

There are many things I can do at the start of the day.
This is a silly statement.

Nope not heard.

Fascinating - well, later when you guys are telling me you understand my meta I'll remember to laugh.

Why have you still not asked me why I decided to vote Desperado? Is that not a very big question for you if you wanted to discern my alignment? For something you made such a big issue over one would think you would ask why I voted him not just try to suggest voting Desperado is scummy.

Do go on though about how voting Desperado with you is scummy when you thought he is scum.

There are a number of reasons I dropped that line of attack.
Wrack your head for a while and maybe you could come up with one or two.
Hint: I am not tunneling you.

[Thor665]

Well that is part of it I didn't feel like going through the whole post still as I said;
A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort

What is your awareness of his town game where he would not do that as town?
Also, again, why would he lie to amp up a read that was not actually a strong read in any case?

I mean all you have to do is look above. I clearly had explained some of it previously.

I disagree, where did you do that?

Do you like to misrep continually?

Everything after the bolded is just made up isn't it?

Yes, it's a lot of fun.

No, that is all direct quoting.

Perhaps when I asked you. That might have been a good time.

So...you're saying I delayed answering it for...some sort of gain that is suspect? Or are you just randomly swatting here?

So, they are opportunistic not just regular scumhunting? I see so then please explain to me what defines them as opportunistic?

You need me to explain the Nacho attack as opportunistic? I se eno value to that.
I think the attack on me is opportunistic insomuch as it showed up when others also were swatting at me, also, as you noted, you're aware my presence in this game is not my usual self and I think you smell that as a weakness rather than a scumtell and are treating it as such. Just wait another week and some change though...
I think the attack on Bulb is because, hey, newbie saying something that is superficially scummy - attack, attack, all while not paying attention to any logic behind it, nor considering it in line with your other reads at the time.

Oh come on Thor this is ridiculous now. When you were scum with me remember how you kept going on about AP lying? he was town.

Not everything town says and does has town motivation in it.

Remember me saying I would have lynched him over that if I was town?

But, again, seriously, go look at Audio mafia. I caught her with the *same thing* happening here.
And she's acting like that's crazy talk.
It's a blatant lie on her part - I want you to at least understand where we're both coming from so I can force you to make a statement about it that isn't 'gut'. What can I do to make that happen?
Even look at how she's interacting with me when i bring it up - she's dancing around it because she knows I'm right. You'll note she's not saying *I'm* wrong or lying, she's just acting "so confuzzled" by what I'm saying. There's a reason for that.

The issue Thor is you continually say my push is slow insinuating it is scummy; what more do you expect me to do other than what I have done?

I can't recall the last time you asked anyone to consider me as scum for any reason. I have done that to my primary read.

For one you could vote to try and encourage others but you don't.

You mean like what I did yesterday?
Or, maybe, ask people to look at my case and deal with, again, replies of 'but they're town...for reasons we can't explain' which is what I'm getting from you today.
Stuff like that?

Yes many things.

Like vote your top scumread.

Respond to posts regarding you at the end of D1.

Things you seem not to do.

You are correct.
That doesn't mean I'm not doing things, and it also doesn't make me scummy.
In fact, what even is the logic there - I wall war with Mollie yesterday and then don't vote her today for the scum gain of...um...wait...for the scum plan of...
What is my scumvantage here again?

Oh I know the reason because I am obviously right.

Yet you still don't ask why I voted Desp while also saying I don't scumhunt; how strange, maybe if you asked you could better discern my alignment but you don't because you are scum.

1. I wouldn't say obviously right, but your answer made sense and I saw no holes in it.

2. Why do I need to know your reason? If you had a good one you would have said it, if it mattered to me I would have asked. You're accussing me of not looking for information you're not even interested in sharing and then acting like somehow that's my issue. It's not - I don't care why you voted him, I care that you voted him at that point. Frankly, later in the game, I still may - but your reasoning behind it is meaningless except insomuch for how you were reacting to me at the time, which was even what my attack was about. I didn't attack you for voting him, I attacked you for voting him while I was also voting him after you said what you said about me. I asked about that part. I don't see what's confusing there.

[Thor665]

@Penguin - while we're at it, your read on Ffullisade would also be nice to hear.

[Thor665]

So, I can never think he is scum for anything because I don't know his town meta... well that seems completely sensible.

Are you being serious Thor?

I am being serious. Allow me to phrase it another way; why do you believe this is scummy as opposed to poor play?

I never said he is amping up any read.

Okay...why do you think he is adding on extra 'fake' scumhunting to help add to the impression of how much scumhunting he's doing...on a read that ended up being a nullish read.
I personally think 'amped' translates that the same way, but whatevs. I really just want the question answered. Feel free to insert a word of your choosing as to what he did to the case, the core question should be able to survive that change and then be answered.

I can post more theories but it really doesn't matter, fact is it is strange you couldn't post that when I asked.

I did post it when asked. You were debating about it's location within that post earlier, now you seem to be debating about it's position within a given point in the game.
Clarify?

Of course. Why would I be doing that if I were scum and not hunting the other team Thor?

Your attack on me smells opportunistic. You were attacking someone whos presence in this game was quite low because you smelt that as weakness.

I mean keep making stuff up it looks really good.

I have described why you would do that as scum, I wasn't aware opportunism went out the window as a scumtell when multiple scum factions existed. If you believe that then I disagree.

So, everyone who voted Oversoul must be opportunistic in your book, who else? Nonsense.

I think it's pretty clear that some of the attacks on Oversoul were opportunistic, it's silly to think otherwise. I'll agree all of them aren't, but me thinking your attacks are opportunistic has little bearing with me being obligated to think all the attacks on Oversoul were opportunistic.

I can't think a newbie is scum? that is your argument?

No, I just want you to explain why the tell is a scumtell when it is highly functional to call it a newb tell - I sort of assumed you'd considered that and dismissed it for some reason. i wanted to hear the reason. If you never considered it I wanted to know why.

I don't care, I. do. not. care. They are town.

Just like AP was.

So...really, you're going to get a strong read on me, and then refuse to look at my case on Mollie because your gut says she is town even when I am claiming that it's rather provable she is lying in a scummy way?

What can I do to change your mind on this?
Why can't you at least *look* at the info, understand it, and then declare her as town off gut?

Heres another example;
Thor: I am going to check VC then vote the biggest wagon
Thor didn't vote the biggest wagon

That is also a lie... technically.

That is arguably true. Though the ellipse prior to technically is showing how you are aware it is a stretch.
However, even if we accept it as a lie; what's the scum motivation? Why did I set it up and then back away from it considering the target was town?
Conversely, I have described why her lie is a scum motivation. I actually caught her in multiple mistruths prior to that and just hammered her for being derpy, but with the most recent lie my tone changed. Because it's a different sort of lie - it's a scummy one.

I asked many people to vote you its the same thing.[/quote
When was the last time?
I recall a weak one last Day Phase.
You never pursued it.
That's why I draw a difference.

Do you need my rant on townreads?

I'd be willing to hear it.

The thinking behind this is; when both of us flip town you look terrible so try to avoid lynching us as long as possible. Sure its multiball so a little more complicated but I know I am town and sure they are. Even if you think we are both flipping scum we would have to flip opposite teams to not make you look bad.

Even a cursory examination of my scum games would show this is dramatically unlikely from scumThor.
What's your theory that makes any sense with me? If any?

The 'confusing' part is you want to figure out why I voted Desp with you and not Oversoul with my other scumreads yet you never asked for an answer.

Yes I did - and then I got an answer. That is why you're aware I had an issue with your vote in the first place, if I hadn't raised the issue then you wouldn't have known it existed and responded to it.
I don't follow.

[Thor665]

I have had enough responding to walls time to cut to the core.

Okay...though I'll admit I have some reservations about that considering where we were in most of those exchanges.

ie he is trying too hard to look town; it reads fake.

And back to my response of your core, that I have been asking you for a while now.
Why do you take that as a scum action when it could simply be derpy town - especially considering you're claiming he lied and faked scumhunting to come up with a null read...which, I would tend to suggest, shouldn't need much faking or padding of the case over.

Mollie and I talked about her reasons for thinking Thor is scum, and I buy into them, since I know they are coming from a town perspective and she has a hell of a lot more experience playing with Thor than I do.

Could you explain her reasoning as regards Audio Mafia?
She is refusing to do it for me, but I'm guessing when she explained it to you and how I was wrong so you could understand - could you restate what she said to you about it so *I* can understand?

Ok whether or not Slandaar is right about Thor I am convinced that he is town

What is your read on Ffullisade considering our current back and forth today?

[Thor665]

What can I do to change your mind on this?
Why can't you at least *look* at the info, understand it, and then declare her as town off gut?

Also, frankly, I'd still really like this addressed.

Well, in all my years I ain't never heard, seen nor smelled an issue that was so dangerous it couldn't be talked about.

[Thor665]

You are lying Thor. I didn't claim he lied anywhere.

He was clearly telling the truth; he padded out his reasoning with something which is not related to alignment to look town. Town don't need to pad reasoning to look town Therefore its scummy.

Why did you need this explaining? it is very obvious what I was saying the first time I said it.

Oh gawds, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Trying again - okay, he 'padded' he didn't 'lie' I love the semantics. The question is, why did he, as scum, feel the need to pad a read that was a null read?
Why is the padding not coming from newb town who thinks the silliness he's garbling *is* a legit tell?
How did you conclude he was the one and not the other?

[Thor665]

@Slandaar - And as I've said before - feel free to insert *word of your choice* for what he did - and then answer the question.

@Bacde - still looking for your take on the exchange with me and FF.
As far as Thez goes, I vaguely like the no vote point, I am not sold by the 'talk to me like I'm town' point, as I don't think he did (yes, I see why you're saying he did, but I think you're reading it weird) and the rest is a 'reason that cannot be explained' which I never sheep, and, frankly, after your histronics with Nacho yesterday, and now a supposed stronger tell on Thez, I am vastly uninterested in doing so today.

Tell you what, answer my question and I'll move my vote to him for at least 24 hours just so I can get at least someone to address my points for a moment.

[Thor665]

Ok, why is thezmon trying to heavily imply that I am scum, yet never votes me, doesn't push on me, and later in the post he talks to me as though I'm town?

What kind of posts are you reading? I never implied you're scum. I think you're delusional and useless town.

You *are* attacking him a lot if you think he's town, to the exclusion of much else.

[Thor665]

Ok, so far all I'm seeing is you playing as unreadable-Thor, and that throwing everybody else off. I think you tend to twist other people's cases to make them look way worse and scummier than they actually are (and its a skill I know you are good at), so I'm afraid thats what you are doing right now if you read FF as scum.

It's funny, because your current 'catch' on Thez is remarkably similar to what I have issues with Mollie over. I guess she does that as town and most people don't?

Can you link me to Audio mafia? I'll tell you if she was playing to her scum meta in that game.

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/9GN4yrhCaUvR

The relevant points are as follows;

Thor calls Mollie out on being scummy.
She complains that I'm misrepping her by changing the order of how she did things (I'm not even sure if I did or didn't, to be honest)
I say the order doesn't matter, but explain to me how that's a scumtell.
She says the order does matter.
I ask 'how'?
She says she already answered the question.
I point out that she hasn't.
She tries to act like she has, and keeps dancing around as I try to force her to explain it, even starting up other lies and arguments to prevent having to revist the past.

Sound familiar to...y'know...anything that has happened here today?
Especially with her saying I don't tunnel as town?

Take your time.

[Thor665]

hi thor

hi

let's talk. lets get real close.

Awesome!
...just don't tell Majiffy, he may or may not have a beard bigger than mine...

so, your case on me is basically that my story is inconsistent. is inconsistency a scumtell of mine? cos you spent an awful lot of time defending me in this game when you replaced in:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=24103

for doing that as town when adam was all and hot bothered to get me lynched. he did in that game the exact same thing that a you are doing in

this

game.

Did he now?
Here's a quote from me in that game "defending" you...

Congrats, you proved she doesn't have flawless logic in her scumtells (shock - she plays emotionally) and have also proved that she can be flustered.
I would submit she does that less as scum - go check out this game: http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/9GN4yrhCaUvR
Note that I catch her with bad logic...and she REFUSES TO DISCUSS IT. (relevant stuff is around halfway through Day 1 if you track down the Day 1 archive audio, or you can listen to Day 2 where I'm discussing it with her)
That's rather different than what she did here, innit?
Wonder why...

Oh...wait...look at that...I clearly *didn't* think you were acting like you did in Audio Mafia.
And yet...here I am...saying that you ARE acting like you did in Audio Mafia.
YOU GOT ME IN A LIE!...oh...wait...wait, no, it's that other thing, the thing where you actually just strengthened my position.

oh and dodging? didn't you try this Smurf in the cult game? why I do believe you did. this is so textbook it isn't funny, cos voided did in that game what bulb is doing in this one which is to support your Smurfy "dodging" case on me. you made it up in that game and you are making it up in this one.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24690

Hurm, ad let's look at this one - Oh, look, I raised the issue of you dodging...BEFORE I WAS RECRUITED BY CULT.
Also, I never voted you over it at any point. i discusse dit as bad and silly.
Much like I did in this game - except in this game your dodge was combined with scummy lying.
Like in Audio Mafia.
Making it different.
And vote worthy.

no thor this is what happened.
[1]mollie foses thor.
[2]mollie pursues her read

while also looking elsewhere

.
[3]

thor omguses mollie

.
[4]thor pursues mollie and slaandy to the exclusion of others in the game, not offering any other reads.
[5]thor blatantly admits to not reading pages even though it could impact his read on us.
[6]here we are today.

^^^ this is what happened.

1. You 'FOS' really isn't - this is a stretch of reality.
2. Well...Majiffy did, yes.
3. My attack on you is a legit one, with reasoning, so it's, again, a stretch to call it OMGUS. Do you even understand why that tell is scummy? It's not just about attacking someone who attacks you.
4. This is provably false. We even just got done discussing my Ref Ryu votes, much less the rest.
5. This is true, what did you do during those pages I should look at?
6. This is also true. Except you should add 'with Mollie, as usual, twisting reality - and then claiming someone else is twisting reality.' Like we've been doing.

<<< Fixed quote tag. >>>

[Thor665]

oh and speaking of dodging questions I asked thor what he thought about my meta case on nacho and I don't think he responded. pot meet kettle.

I see you asking it and me answering it here.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4964773
Was there another time?
I do seem to recall discussing that answer with you for a while...at length...but I guess you forgot...y'know, in order to try for another awkward hypocrisy tell.

...you still haven't explained my hypocrisy. Do you remember that as the core of your initial case on me?
I do.

This game is so big, so I believe your take on the story, but can you link me to the relevant posts?

I'm not really of a mind to listen to them all.
The relevant good one to look at would be my 35th audio post, in that one I pretty much restate the entire case with 'quotes'

he did try to make it seem like he wasn't reading mollie AT ALL, and he kept emphasizing that

He did, and it was weird, especially since he was telling her to ignore me, so he was at least aware of what she was doing, but wanting to distance from it and wanting it to stop. I *could* see that coming from town him, though, but it is certainly an added level of 'bwuh?' to the Hydra. At leasf FF sorta was willing to come out and take ownership and claim he'd talked stuff over with Mollie.

Ill admit the longer I wait for him to explain what she said the less impressed I'll likely be with the answer.

[Thor665]

Could you explain her reasoning as regards Audio Mafia?
She is refusing to do it for me, but I'm guessing when she explained it to you and how I was wrong so you could understand - could you restate what she said to you about it so *I* can understand?

This audio game thing is part of your case on her. correct?

- fery

That would be a point I have brought up repeatedly and just asked you about before you now have asked me if that's what I was asking you about.

[Thor665]

I mean, I even just did a breakdown of it.
And linked it.
And had accused her because of it multiple times, and asked her about it as well, also multiple times.
But, yeah, i guess it *is* part of my case on her.
Good spot.

What'd she say about it? Since it was the crux of my meta case on her, and she's attacking my meta case as bad and you said she explained why it was bad to you.

[Thor665]

Not necessarily, I just don't see why you would find him town.

It's gut at the moment, he feels like he's legit working, not fake working.

Yes, it is consistent.

She lies about things she's done to avoid explaining them and fakes emotional breakdowns as town?
Links to any examples?

Let's be peaches together.

Unvote: Haylen
Vote: AmethystKitten

So if you have a townread on me and a scumread on mollie and I'm calling mollie town, that's not a good thing.

I don't really have a legit town read on you.
I have a 'I don't think his bad play is proof he's scum' read on you.
But I'm willing to see the links you'll show me.

[Thor665]

I haven't really discussed your case on mollie with her. Our convo about you was more about catching me up with her case on you.

Did she explain my hypocrisy to you?
She hasn't done that yet either. She said I did it, then basically refused to explain how, where, or why.

[Thor665]

I haven't really discussed your case on mollie with her. Our convo about you was more about catching me up with her case on you.

Did she explain my hypocrisy to you?
She hasn't done that yet either. She said I did it, then basically refused to explain how, where, or why.

no, I did explain it.

how about that iso....

I'm still buried back a lot of pages. But want to call this out.

QUOTE WHEN YOU DID - LIAR.

That is all.

I'll catch up through all these pages when I'm off work, not before.