Mini 392: Jungle Republic - Game over!

[Yosarian2]

You see, this is exactally why I didn't want to make a list. Zind attacks me just with a very stupid reason. He said " His opinions are very unclear, and so far this game, he's only pushed for one guy to be lynched ", which is completly untrue, as I pushed very strongly for two guys to be lynched so far this game and have had very clear and strong opinions every single day.

So anyway, he makes this list, attacking at least one person who is pro-town (me) and quickly spontiac and kingpin both pile on. Spontiac seems to still have a problem based on some stupid bandwagoning Carde did day 1. Yes, that whole SL bandwagon was stupid, but I don't see why he's attacking me for it when Cadre at least had some fairly ratioanl reasons for attacking SL, as opposed to basically everyone else on the bandwagon. Not especally strong reasons, perhaps, but more then strong enough for a vote that early on day 1. And kingpin then piles on for no reason at all.

All the scum have to do is get one townie to vote for one other townie and then pile on, and they win, which is why lists are so dangerous. We'd be much better off if pro-town people just shared their top suspicion or two, and we focused on that, rather then everyone listing 3 people they think are scum; much harder for the scum to directly manipulate us into voting for each other that way.

So

fos:kingpin

. I'd expect the scum to try to "pile on" to any misplaced suspicion they can find, and if either Zind or spontic is non-Islamist, I'd expect an islamist to try to start pushing the town in that direction, which he seems to be trying to do now.

[KingPin]

Yos,
If I understand your argument correctly, you are FOS'ing me because I think you are probably scum. I think the whole tone of your post is defensive. Call me silly, but if I had stated only my top two or three scum choices, and you were included, would I still be getting FOS'ed by you?

Did you also note that my so called "attacks" on you simply stated it was a gut reaction to reading your posts. I don't see these as attacks so much as information necessary to garner even more information. Your overreaction is noted on my sheet though. And whats more than that, If I would have posted before Spron, would that have made me less worthy of an FOS?

Interesting.

[Yosarian2]

Yos,
If I understand your argument correctly, you are FOS'ing me because I think you are probably scum. I think the whole tone of your post is defensive. Call me silly, but if I had stated only my top two or three scum choices, and you were included, would I still be getting FOS'ed by you?

I am FOSing me because of the timing of your attack on me, yes. What I would expect a scum to do right now would be to wait until some townie was suspecting some other townie, and then hop on the bandwagon, because that's all it'd take for them to win, and it looks to me like that's what you just did. Especally as you didn't give any reason for your attack other then "gut", the timing looks incredibly suspicious to me.

Did you also note that my so called "attacks" on you simply stated it was a gut reaction to reading your posts.

That's what you claim. I'm suspect other motives on your part, and "gut" is a pretty easy excuse for you to use.

And whats more than that, If I would have posted before Spron, would that have made me less worthy of an FOS?

Yeah, if you had been the first to attack me, it wouldn't have been as suspicious.

[Kelly Chen]

Cogito Ergo Sum replaces Lucresia.

yay!

[Thestatusquo]

YARR!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

YARR!

Now to read the thread!

[Zindaras]

You see, this is exactally why I didn't want to make a list. Zind attacks me just with a very stupid reason. He said " His opinions are very unclear, and so far this game, he's only pushed for one guy to be lynched ", which is completly untrue, as I pushed very strongly for two guys to be lynched so far this game and have had very clear and strong opinions every single day.

Only against Norinel, germy and Brian.

So

fos:kingpin

. I'd expect the scum to try to "pile on" to any misplaced suspicion they can find, and if either Zind or spontic is non-Islamist, I'd expect an islamist to try to start pushing the town in that direction, which he seems to be trying to do now.

So, what you're basically saying is "I believe that, due to the lists, I have caught Islamist scum in KingPin, but the lists are totally wrong and evil."

[Zindaras]

YARR!

Post more.

FoS: TSQ

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've read up to page 12 and I must say that it was pretty obvious, at least to me, that Nai was the President. So

FoS: Yosarian2, thestatusquo, Zindaras

, you should know better.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've read pretty much the entire game now.

I've got a good feeling Yosarian2 and Zindaras are Islamists.

Because of what I said last post, because of their part in the germy-lynch, because of fairly pointless discussion on how Islamists would act and Cadre was pretty scummy too.

I'm considering voting.

[Zindaras]

Because of what I said last post,

Crap. You're scapegoating here. Your predecessor said nothing of the matter, and it's very easy to be right in retrospect. I also stated that I would probably be voting LyingBrian, unless he came up with a better explanation. I am not the one to be blamed for Nai being hasty and claiming.

because of their part in the germy-lynch,

More crap. You're ignoring all arguments here and randomly putting the blame on two people. Again, you're also ignoring the ShadowLurker lynch.

because of fairly pointless discussion on how Islamists would act

To finish off with the biggest piece of craplogic.

For one, it's not pointless. Know thy enemy.

For two, even if it would be pointless, it still leaves more content than pretty much anyone else in the game.

Narrow-minded attacks, ignorance of earlier events that give different evidence, broad statements, no specifics, no actual case.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Crap. You're scapegoating here. Your predecessor said nothing of the matter, and it's very easy to be right in retrospect. I also stated that I would probably be voting LyingBrian, unless he came up with a better explanation. I am not the one to be blamed for Nai being hasty and claiming.

Yes, it's very easy to be right in retrospect, but I was unaware that Nai really was the president at the time of reading. He made a number of posts, which clearly suggested he was the president. I know I would've known in that situation and I don't believe it slipped by you and Yosarian2.

More crap. You're ignoring all arguments here and randomly putting the blame on two people. Again, you're also ignoring the ShadowLurker lynch.

I understand and to an extent agree with the germy-lynch. He was looking scummy. But I don't like how it went. You're not the only two to blame, but it is part of why I'm suspicious of the two of you.

The ShadowLurker-lynch was driven by 1. LyingBrian, 2. Jathan's use of profanity and 3. day 1 shenanigans. I don't think it's particularly relevant Today. I don't see why I should've mentioned it.

For one, it's not pointless. Know thy enemy.

It is pointless, because we both know that how the Islamists are going to play is going to be dictated by that player's play style. I seriously doubt that the fact that they're Islamists rather than Commies or something is going to have a noticeable effect on their play. In essence, you're making generalizations that needlessly limit our pool of lynch targets.

For two, even if it would be pointless, it still leaves more content than pretty much anyone else in the game.

Pointless content only distracts us from the real thing: finding scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Anyhow, I've made up my mind.

Vote: Zindaras

, let's get it on!

[Zindaras]

Yes, it's very easy to be right in retrospect, but I was unaware that Nai really was the president at the time of reading. He made a number of posts, which clearly suggested he was the president. I know I would've known in that situation and I don't believe it slipped by you and Yosarian2.

I attacked LyingBrian all day. You want me to decide, then and there, to take a gamble and lynch Brian without giving him a chance to defend his actions? I didn't say the real President (if any) should counterclaim, I said I wanted some more time.

Reread my old games, CES. I'm far more hesitant as town.

I understand and to an extent agree with the germy-lynch. He was looking scummy. But I don't like how it went. You're not the only two to blame, but it is part of why I'm suspicious of the two of you.

We had input from all players. I argued with germy, even to his satisfaction.

The ShadowLurker-lynch was driven by 1. LyingBrian, 2. Jathan's use of profanity and 3. day 1 shenanigans. I don't think it's particularly relevant Today. I don't see why I should've mentioned it.

Every lynch is relevant. Especially ones that are impossible without scum being in them.

It is pointless, because we both know that how the Islamists are going to play is going to be dictated by that player's play style. I seriously doubt that the fact that they're Islamists rather than Commies or something is going to have a noticeable effect on their play. In essence, you're making generalizations that needlessly limit our pool of lynch targets.

Where have these statements limited my lynch pool? The two I've been mostly aiming my suspicions against today are both very active players.

And it is true that people play differently as Mafia, as Cop, as Doc, as Survivor. The Islamists are essentially Survivors, so you would expect them to play differently. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and yes, we shouldn't put too much faith in it, but in general, it is something noteworthy.

Pointless content only distracts us from the real thing: finding scum.

Not posting at all is far worse than that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Zindaras, I don't believe you didn't see Nai was the President. It was clearly there. And Yosarian2 was already arguing a "don't lynch any claimed President" approach, so there was no need for you to agree with it or promote it.

We had input from all players. I argued with germy, even to his satisfaction.

But I'm not germy and his satisfaction is hardly relevant to me. I feel the lynch just went too easy.

Every lynch is relevant. Especially ones that are impossible without scum being in them.

Even if you do hold that view, I was merely presenting my case against the two of you. There was no specific reason to mention it. If you think it speaks in your favour, you are free to mention it.

Where have these statements limited my lynch pool? The two I've been mostly aiming my suspicions against today are both very active players.

Even if you have not personally followed through on it, you've still advocated what I see as an anti-town policy.

And it is true that people play differently as Mafia, as Cop, as Doc, as Survivor. The Islamists are essentially Survivors, so you would expect them to play differently. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and yes, we shouldn't put too much faith in it, but in general, it is something noteworthy.

Islamists are not essentially Survivors, they are what they are. They might play differently, but the difference'll be very much dependent on the specific player. Looking for scum seems much more productive than looking for survivors or whatever you want to simplify their role too.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras, I don't believe you didn't see Nai was the President. It was clearly there.

So I should simply jump at anyone else even claiming Cop? As I said before, Mafia is a game where there's no real time pressure. I opted to go to bed and review the game in a later, more awake, stage.

And Yosarian2 was already arguing a "don't lynch any claimed President" approach, so there was no need for you to agree with it or promote it.

This speaks of little knowledge of my way of playing. If I think something should be done, I will argue for it. Especially as one-man arguments never get far.

But I'm not germy and his satisfaction is hardly relevant to me. I feel the lynch just went too easy.

Obvobv, that's because the guy self-voted.

Even if you do hold that view, I was merely presenting my case against the two of you. There was no specific reason to mention it. If you think it speaks in your favour, you are free to mention it.

You should never ignore anything said by any other player in the thread. I've brought up arguments as these before.

Friday nor Lucresia goes free from the ShadowLurker lynch, and I like how both of you are ignoring it.

Even if you have not personally followed through on it, you've still advocated what I see as an anti-town policy.

Advocated? I have simply stated my opinion on the matter. If someone advocates lynching lurkers, for example, it's usually denoted by an inordinate eagerness to lynch them.

You're by far overstating the weight I was putting on my theories. I always throw out theories, in every game I play in, simply because I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking of them.

Islamists are not essentially Survivors, they are what they are. They might play differently, but the difference'll be very much dependent on the specific player. Looking for scum seems much more productive than looking for survivors or whatever you want to simplify their role too.

What have I been doing besides looking for scum? The Survivor thing has had minor implications for my eventual scumlist, yes, but no big ones.

[Yosarian2]

Yes, it's very easy to be right in retrospect, but I was unaware that Nai really was the president at the time of reading. He made a number of posts, which clearly suggested he was the president. I know I would've known in that situation and I don't believe it slipped by you and Yosarian2.

I've got to say that on some level I kind of did believe lying brian when he claimed cop, especally as, like I mentioned before, his claim that he had an innocent on me seemed to fit with the way he had treated me that day.

Yes, it had occured to me that it was possible someone who was still pushing hard for his lynch after he claimed could be the actual cop. But at that point, I was unwilling to take the risk without a counterclaim.

I understand and to an extent agree with the germy-lynch. He was looking scummy. But I don't like how it went. You're not the only two to blame, but it is part of why I'm suspicious of the two of you.

Eh? If you agree that germy looked scummy, why are you attacking me for putting the first vote on him?

It is pointless, because we both know that how the Islamists are going to play is going to be dictated by that player's play style. I seriously doubt that the fact that they're Islamists rather than Commies or something is going to have a noticeable effect on their play. In essence, you're making generalizations that needlessly limit our pool of lynch targets.

Actually, that was exactally the point I was trying to make, which was just that Norinel's argument that (to paraphrase) "most/all the islamists would have been on the germy wagon, so we should lynch someone who was on that wagon" was a questionable, and perhaps scummy, attempt to narrow the list of possible suspects.

Anyway, CES, if you are going to vote, I would request you keep a close eye on the game and be prepared to unvote if it looks like the scum are trying a speedlynch.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

So I should simply jump at anyone else even claiming Cop? As I said before, Mafia is a game where there's no real time pressure. I opted to go to bed and review the game in a later, more awake, stage.

So you're saying you did see it?

This speaks of little knowledge of my way of playing. If I think something should be done, I will argue for it. Especially as one-man arguments never get far.

I think you're too smart to connect yourself so strongly to what I suspect to be your scum buddy, Yos. And I think you knew it would end badly. Letting Yos do the dirty work is then a far more rational approach for any Islamist.

Obvobv, that's because the guy self-voted.

It is a part of it, but not whole of it.

You should never ignore anything said by any other player in the thread. I've brought up arguments as these before.

Friday nor Lucresia goes free from the ShadowLurker lynch, and I like how both of you are ignoring it.

I was explaining my two major suspicions, making my case. Why should I have to mention every previous event?

As for the last part, my point is that it is worthless content, speculation that is not in any way helping the town.

[sprontalic]

I'm just posting to say that I'm still here and reading.

This new twist from CES is interesting and I'm not sure what to think of it. I'm going to let this play out a little longer before I form an opinion on it.

[Zindaras]

So you're saying you did see it?

I said this before. If I had to have picked anyone for Cop at the time, it would've been Nai.

However, that doesn't mean that anyone else claiming Cop is to be instantly disbelieved. Again, I point out that I am far more hesitant as town. Again, I point out that I only wished to argue on with LyingBrian before deciding.

I think you're too smart to connect yourself so strongly to what I suspect to be your scum buddy, Yos. And I think you knew it would end badly. Letting Yos do the dirty work is then a far more rational approach for any Islamist.

So, if I don't, I'm Islamist, and if I do, I'm Islamist too?

It is a part of it, but not whole of it.

I feel I have argued more than enough with germy, ever since I got in the game. I've argued with him ever since I got into the game. Are you suggesting I've been setting up a germy lynch from the start?

I was explaining my two major suspicions, making my case. Why should I have to mention every previous event?

Every lynch is extremely relevant. I don't like the fact you're ignoring everything else to go after me.

For example, TSQ's and sprontie's votes for germy, the entirety of Day One.

As for the last part, my point is that it is worthless content, speculation that is not in any way helping the town.

For one, I disagree with the entire concept of it not helping town, as, in my opinion, pretty much all information is beneficial to the town.

For two, even if you assume it is worthless content, I have posted far more normal content. I'm not entirely sure about the specifics, but I think I've posted more content than anyone else in the thread.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I said this before. If I had to have picked anyone for Cop at the time, it would've been Nai.

However, that doesn't mean that anyone else claiming Cop is to be instantly disbelieved. Again, I point out that I am far more hesitant as town. Again, I point out that I only wished to argue on with LyingBrian before deciding.

I'm not buying your "I lack guts"-defense. A good townie would've argued for a LyingBrian-lynch.

So, if I don't, I'm Islamist, and if I do, I'm Islamist too?

FALSE DILEMMA! There was, in fact, a third option(ie. the pro-town option), arguing for a LyingBrian-lynch, but yes, you are an Islamist.

I feel I have argued more than enough with germy, ever since I got in the game. I've argued with him ever since I got into the game. Are you suggesting I've been setting up a germy lynch from the start?

Not specifically.

Every lynch is extremely relevant. I don't like the fact you're ignoring everything else to go after me.

For example, TSQ's and sprontie's votes for germy, the entirety of Day One.

I'm trying to lynch scum. You're my best bet for scum and I'm trying to convince the town of that fact. Simple, aye?

For one, I disagree with the entire concept of it not helping town, as, in my opinion, pretty much all information is beneficial to the town.

Do you think an argument about how our Dutchness affects our playstyle spanning 14 pages would be beneficial to the town? Any positive effects that might have are easily overshadowed by its distracting influence and clouding of the real issues. Distraction is a tool of the scum's arsenal.

For two, even if you assume it is worthless content, I have posted far more normal content. I'm not entirely sure about the specifics, but I think I've posted more content than anyone else in the thread.

Here, have a cookie. It is, however, completely irrelevant to the argument and I know you're active as both scum and town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I've got to say that on some level I kind of did believe lying brian when he claimed cop, especally as, like I mentioned before, his claim that he had an innocent on me seemed to fit with the way he had treated me that day.

Yes, it had occured to me that it was possible someone who was still pushing hard for his lynch after he claimed could be the actual cop. But at that point, I was unwilling to take the risk without a counterclaim.

You didn't see Nai as President then?

Eh? If you agree that germy looked scummy, why are you attacking me for putting the first vote on him?

The lynch went too easy. I'm not specifically blaming you, but it makes me suspicious of everyone on the wagon.

Actually, that was exactally the point I was trying to make, which was just that Norinel's argument that (to paraphrase) "most/all the islamists would have been on the germy wagon, so we should lynch someone who was on that wagon" was a questionable, and perhaps scummy, attempt to narrow the list of possible suspects.

I will re-read that part now.

Anyway, CES, if you are going to vote, I would request you keep a close eye on the game and be prepared to unvote if it looks like the scum are trying a speedlynch.

Go go fairly pointless comments that are designed to make you look responsible and pro-town!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Um, dude, Yosarian2, you are totally misrepresenting him(unless you thought he was actually advocating randomly lynching from the bandwagon). He was refuting your argument that the germy-wagon was useless in terms of information, a refutation I agree with.

[Zindaras]

I'm not buying your "I lack guts"-defense. A good townie would've argued for a LyingBrian-lynch.

Then there was only one good townie in the entire game.

I'm not a hasty person, Cessy. I prefer to argue before casting votes.

FALSE DILEMMA! There was, in fact, a third option(ie. the pro-town option), arguing for a LyingBrian-lynch, but yes, you are an Islamist.

Again, why are you only attacking me over this? I was hardly the only one guilty of this.

I play hastily, sometimes. It always backfires on me. So I prefer to think things through. Which I was going to do, if it weren't for the fact that Nai claimed while I was asleep.

Not specifically.

So then, how is it impossible to believe that I was not genuinely suspicious regarding germy from the start and the fact that he had votes on him already was not at all a factor in my play?

I'm trying to lynch scum. You're my best bet for scum and I'm trying to convince the town of that fact. Simple, aye?

You're using some mad ignoring skills.

For example, your only opinions are on Yos and me. You don't say anything else regarding anything else. Narrow-minded. Single-minded. Wrong-minded.

Do you think an argument about how our Dutchness affects our playstyle spanning 14 pages would be beneficial to the town?

Our arguments regarding playstyle have not spanned 14 complete pages.

And, yes, I think that it would be beneficial to the town. Simply because it may help the town catch scum. Of course, in this situation, it's less useful, since the main effect of our Dutchness is that we can't get all the intricacies and nuances of the English language, but that's not a tell.

There has been more than enough theory discussion going on in this thread, and not all by me, or even Yos. I distinctly remember some talk about using tells.

Any positive effects that might have are easily overshadowed by its distracting influence and clouding of the real issues. Distraction is a tool of the scum's arsenal.

I feel that it's the other way around. And you'll notice me doing that in pretty much every game, every time.

Here, have a cookie. It is, however, completely irrelevant to the argument and I know you're active as both scum and town.

It is very relevant to the argument. You're saying I'm posting worthless content. You're using this as a scumtell. I'm saying I have been posting way more than enough content for this not to be true.

[Kelly Chen]

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