[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[chkflip]

CHKFUCKED

Mafia Odd-Night Janitor
Mafia Even-Night Janitor

Town Jailkeeper
Town Mason/Lover I
Town Mason/Lover II
Town Vanilla x7

Jailkeeper can stop Janitor flip blocks and stall a lover suicide by one night.

[JacobSavage]

Nameless

• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• 1 Cop
  
• 1 Jailkeeper
  
• 5 Vanilla Townies

Has this been suggested before (I couldn't find it on the wiki) and is it balanced?

[Zaicon]

That's one of the possibilities in the current Newbie Setup 2of4, although one of the Mafia Goons is a Mafia Role Cop.

[JacobSavage]

How much do you think the Role Cop affects balanced if the whole set up is known before hand.

[quadz08]

That's probably similar balance-wise to Bird 7p.

[callforjudgement]

Good thing he asked about nightless mountainous, then.

Sorry, I'm tired at the moment. For anyone who's noticed that I've basically siteflaked, it's because I'm so busy in RL at the moment that I'm not getting time on the site often enough to be able to mod or play in a timely manner, and it'd be unfair to inflict my inactivity on anyone else.

How do you go about determining if a set up is balanced just out of curiosity?

First you have a baseline of well-tested setups where you have some idea where the balance is. (For 9p setups, the newbie setups over the years give the best data because they've been run so often. For 13p, mini normals in general are a good comparison.) Then you see how the setup differs, especially in terms of roles that mostly cancel each other out, and the like.

An alternative method (I use both) is to work out how much information the town can get entirely with their power roles (counting "confirmations"). Then you compare that to the number of confirmations you'd expect for the game size and type (e.g. for a 13p closed normal, typically around 3 would be balanced if there's no scum power at all). You can't blindly apply a formula for that, though, because the power of a role depends a lot on its context. (For instance, a mislynch is worth two confirmations, one town-controlled and one scum-controlled, under normal circumstances. So a doctor becomes a lot better if they're likely to gain the town a mislynch; otherwise they're only worth as much as the players they can save, plus a bit if they can reasonably save themselves by claiming, which is typically true in an open but false in a closed game.)

[UberNinja]

Nameless

• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• 1 Cop
  
• 1 Jailkeeper
  
• 5 Vanilla Townies

Has this been suggested before (I couldn't find it on the wiki) and is it balanced?

Sounds an awful lot like one of the six permutations of 2of4 just minus the Rolecop.

[BBmolla]

Nameless

• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• 1 Cop
  
• 1 Jailkeeper
  
• 5 Vanilla Townies

Has this been suggested before (I couldn't find it on the wiki) and is it balanced?

Townsided imo. One mafia goon getting lynched will really screw things over.

However if people consider JK9 balanced, this one is probably better balanced because in this setup tracker is stronger than cop. (Tracker can find Jailkeeper, cop just tells who is town/scum)

[Docteur Gudsight]

Hmm as long as two goons are alive, tracker isn't a reliable way to clear someone.

[LlamaFluff]

Hmm as long as two goons are alive, tracker isn't a reliable way to clear someone.

Its a pretty good way.

A "nowhere" result is about a 80% town result. Same basic accuracy if you had a cop and GF in same size setup. VT lynched and NKed a "nowhere" result in that specific setup would apply to 3 town and 1 scum, so 75% chance town.

[Faraday]

However if people consider JK9 balanced, this one is probably better balanced because in this setup tracker is stronger than cop. (Tracker can find Jailkeeper, cop just tells who is town/scum)

I...don't see how this makes it any way stronger. The cop gives 100% accurate results, the tracker doesn't.

[Venrob]

I made a modified version of PYP X/Y with some odd roles in it to make the game more interesting, though since each role can go to either alignment it is about the same balance wise except for one or 2 things... Here is a link to the setup (i made it as a wiki page) Venrob's PYP X/Y

Any balancing that is needed can be talked about in the discussion page for the wiki article that i just linked- i'm going to be modding the first run (hopefully) as soon as i reach the top of the modding queue.

One main thing i am worried about is the conditional-shot vigilante... It more favors town than maf, though most likely as town it will be one-shot unless saved until lategame thus making it boring early game (prob not gonna happen) while as maf it is always 1-shot unless maf shoots their own partner... Then there is the Jack of All Trades.... Might need some ability changes..... Plz check out the link, would appriciate. Will accept pre /ins to the first run of the setup in the discussion page.

[BBmolla]

However if people consider JK9 balanced, this one is probably better balanced because in this setup tracker is stronger than cop. (Tracker can find Jailkeeper, cop just tells who is town/scum)

I...don't see how this makes it any way stronger. The cop gives 100% accurate results, the tracker doesn't.

Forgive me I was being dumb this morning, for some reason I had it in my head that tracker tracks mafia to the kill even when that mafia doesn't make it.

[Hoopla]

I made a modified version of PYP X/Y with some odd roles in it to make the game more interesting, though since each role can go to either alignment it is about the same balance wise except for one or 2 things... Here is a link to the setup (i made it as a wiki page) Venrob's PYP X/Y

i don't think it improves the original. it's more overall power and more killing roles - this will mostly just increase swing.

[Oversoul]

Hoopla!

[JacobSavage]

Hoopla!

[LlamaFluff]

What Hoopla said regarding the PYP X/Y change.

[LlamaFluff]

Is 3:8 / 3:9 mountainous nightless considered balanced? Because this setup looks strictly better for the mafia than mountainous nightless given the mafia can choose to play it like that.

Its not, which is my arguement about adding more town to the setup.

If town PGO doesnt kill scum, then there is next to zero chance of town winning. Realisitically town will need two kills to win this setup. Which is probably why town has only won one itteration of this one.

Unless I hear something major against the addition of another townie I will go ahead and increase the amount of VT by one and try to get another run of the game up sometime soon.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I haven't seen the first game to be able to compare them, but I used Perfectionist Vigilante as the role name for that conditional vidge of yours when I hosted a set-up with it a while back, and I thought it conveyed the role well.

[Venrob]

The whole idea is to make the game funner to play- if you look there is actually an additional whole slot. The conditional-shot vig (as of teh's post i will call it perfectionist, that sounds less wierd) is meant to give town a touch more power, meanwhile the redirector gets an extra shot. Night 2 vig is replacing night 3 vig, not much difference... Gunsmith was just cuz i needed an extra role, it gives town something to replace cop should maf take redirector. This setup is mainly made on player strategy, as is the original. Open to specific changes that you think i should make to balance it. Honestly the JoAT is going to tilt the game, though that may balance it (what if maf gets both vigs? JoAT to the rescue!)

The commuter could be changed so that if the commuter is maf they get an extra if they were investigated by cop (as well as or rather than kill-dodge). Overall i (having played PYP X/Y) wanted to add some more roles. I am very flexible on this. Should some people say JoAT is too OP, i can remove it all together! Any specific feedback for changes? If this doesnt clear by the time i am up to mod i will prob run PYP X/Y to get a mod's perspective on the setup... Might make it easier for me to edit.

As for my change in draft phase that is so less is left to chance should 2 people choose same number (Open 472- 4 4's!). As for secondary slot pick i can remove that- just a cool idea i had.

I'm gonna wait for some feedback and work on another new setup.

[Hoopla]

there's no point including a secondary number in the draft as it's optimal to always select 1.

i still don't see how making an already role-heavy game more chaotic is more fun, but i am a simple person.

[Venrob]

Hmmm true... Except in 3-way or more ties. Shouls 2 people select 1 as secondary and another select 2, the person that selects 2 is ahead as the 1's are tied. That's the main purpose of it- would've helped in Open 472.

The more roles makes it require more strategy and thinking. This causes more awesome ideas and such which can be fun for players and is definately fun to watch. At least i like watching it.
More roles also makes for less VT's. I've only played as non-vanilla once. (Ironically open 472 when i was second-last in draft). More non-vanilla more fun for players. (Given the more powerful roles does not help my latter point, though the extra slot does)

As for just more powerful roles- It just makes everything interesting. Add a gov & a gunsmith, throw in a JoAT... Gov can save town or maf. Gunsmith results aren't guaranteed guilties. JoAT is one-use per ability. Not all that OP. The perfectionist vig is good for maf, better for town (i admit). It functions as 1-shot for maf, and most likely one shot for town... Overall the vigs are only minutely altered, whilst the new roles aren't overpowered. As to offset the perfectionist vig, the redirector is 2-shot rather than 1-shot.

[Hoopla]

Hmmm true... Except in 3-way or more ties. Shouls 2 people select 1 as secondary and another select 2, the person that selects 2 is ahead as the 1's are tied. That's the main purpose of it- would've helped in Open 472.

If you're planning to select any number other than 1 as your secondary number, so you can prosper in three-way ties, then you're doing it wrong. Old PYP games (before it became a catalogued open game) featured drafts with a secondary number, and it was dropped for that reason - it has no real purpose.

More roles means more chaos, which can actually negate strategy and thinking, and minimises the value of the day phase. I think it's one of those ideas that sounds fun on paper, but wouldn't play out to your expectations.

[Venrob]

Hmm... The gov is useful during the day, but not much else... You make a good point about the day phase. How about instead of night 2 vig i make it day 2 vig? Or if you think i should drop roles, which ones?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I remember reading one secondary draft that if people selected the exact same stuff they got bumped RIGHT to the bottom.