Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over

[wolfsbane]

While we're on the subject we might as well get a prod on bird1111 as well. He seems to have slipped off the radar.

[Seol]

Ripley- Why are you not in the votecount? Are you voting/ suspicious of anyone currently- if so, who and why?

1. Not my responsibility.
2a. No.
2b. No.
3a. Not applicable.
3b. Not applicable.

This, oh, how shall I put it...

just screams "Not interested".

But for now, I feel like going

vote: IH

.

[Green Crayons]

Ripley- Why are you not in the votecount? Are you voting/ suspicious of anyone currently- if so, who and why?

1. Not my responsibility.
2a. No.
2b. No.
3a. Not applicable.
3b. Not applicable.

How are you not suspicious of anyone after eight/nine pages? I'm not talking vote-worthy, merely suspicious. Are you saying that all 11 other people are acting like saints?

[Ripley]

Ripley- Why are you not in the votecount? Are you voting/ suspicious of anyone currently- if so, who and why?

1. Not my responsibility.
2a. No.
2b. No.
3a. Not applicable.
3b. Not applicable.

This, oh, how shall I put it...

just screams "Not interested".

A poor attempt at a cut-and-paste stitch-up by Seol. The minute or less it takes to pull up all posts by Rathyr and then by me and to contrast the two sets is ample to show the difference between a player who is interested and one who isn't.

But for now, I feel like going

vote: IH

.

You know people are going to ask why, so why not save time and tell us?

How can you not suspect anybody? I just don't understand. You must have some kind of idea? A twitch, a figure of speech, a glass eye- any of these can be a clue.

How are you not suspicious of anyone after eight/nine pages? I'm not talking vote-worthy, merely suspicious. Are you saying that all 11 other people are acting like saints?

Sorry to disappoint you both but I cannot manufacture suspicion where none exists. This isn't a situation that I'm enjoying particularly. It's more fun to have a suspect.

I said some time ago that the game had divided early into two groups, those who were involved and those who weren't. The people who aren't involved in a game are the ones who would normally get my attention, but in this game we have the unusual situation that nearly all of them have left it. We're now awaiting our fourth replacement. Really, the only one left is bird1111, who's made only 1 real attempt at post with content. post 92. Though when you look closely at this apparently lengthy post he wrote scarcely a word of it; two sets of mistyped quotes disguise this at a casual glance. He seems fairly fixated on something to do with IH and post 68, something I had classified as "some miniscule point about almost nothing at all". I have no idea if this is in any way related to Seol's vote.

So, the lurkers have left, the prolific posters (Seol, GC, LL, IH) come across as innocent almost from the sheer volume of words and the effort it would take to produce them. I'm not ready to give an opinion on the replacements yet. Who does that leave? bird1111, about whom I've said all I have to say at this stage. Since so many others have left I'd like to get a confirmation he's playing on. Wolfsbane: I just don't have an opinion. Echo: I'm not convinced by the arguments against him, and the outcome of a lynch in another game of a player accused of one of the main charges aganst Echo (I hope it's OK to refer to ongoing games in such general terms as this) has inclined me more to give him the benefit of the doubt.

As for Luckay being scum- if he is he's in trouble because he either will point out genuine townies, which helps us, or establish clear links between him and his scumbuddies, which also helps us. Of course, noone is above suspicion, but I see no reason to mistrust him yet. Do you, Ripley?

Not really. But I do wonder how well he's able to pull off the LL persona as scum. It would be useful to have a completed game where he was scum to look at.

[Lowell]

His angry tone notwithstanding, I am getting VERY strong townie vibes from Ripley based on this last post.

[Ripley]

His angry tone notwithstanding, I am getting VERY strong townie vibes from Ripley based on this last post.

I'm astonished by this. I'm not the slightest bit angry with anybody, and certainly had no intention of sounding as if I was. Perhaps I just don't pick up my own tone... in any case, apologies for the misunderstanding to anyone who may have thought I was angry with them.

[chaotic_diablo]

ogre replaces Rathyr.

Vote Count

IH (3) : LuckayLuck, bird111, Seol
Echo419 (3) : IH, wolfsbane, Green Crayons
Ogre (3) : Lowell, spectrumvoid, M4yhem


Not Voting: Echo419, ogre, Ripley

7 to LYNCH

If I made any mistakes here, you may either pm me or post in the thread.

[M4yhem]

But for now, I feel like going

vote: IH

.

You know people are going to ask why, so why not save time and tell us?

Ripley’s right, you know.

Why

did you vote for IH, Seol?

Sorry to disappoint you both but I cannot manufacture suspicion where none exists.

That would be good news if you were scum.

While I agree that the amount of replacements in this game makes it hard to follow at times (I had to check who Lowell was when he posted) there are still things that stick out for me, which are enough to vote for on day one. To not even have a gut feeling about anybody; well, I feel sorry for you, Ripley. However, I think you are being disarmingly honest, and so I don’t consider your lack of opinion scummy (at the present time.) Still, I suggest you have a read through, and if you get anything, even if it’s just a twinge, let us know.

Mmm-hmm. As for all the prolific posters being town, I disagree. There’s at least one who I consider a good candidate for being in a scum group with Rathyr. Can you guess which? The advantage, to town, of scum posting lots, is that they tend to slip up; which is why I like to go after the quiet ones first, to encourage the others.

Anyway, Ripley, don’t stop posting because you have nothing to say; it has never stopped me, as you can see.

Bird111- Who do you suspect? Why? Do you still want to play?

Echo- You about? You went quiet suddenly...

I didn’t get any anger from Ripley’s post.

Lowell- Do you find Rathyr himself scummy, or would you be happy voting for

any

of the low content posters?

Ogre- Hello. What an appropriate name. Some questions for you:

Are you scum? Who are your scumbuddies? Who do you suspect? Who do you trust? Why? Why? Why? Why?

Thanks.

[IH]

I am in agreeance with Ripley and M4yhem. Where's the anger? I see none. Does this make him even more town to you Lowell, or.... does it shoot his case down IYO?

[Lowell]

Lowell- Do you find Rathyr himself scummy, or would you be happy voting for

any

of the low content posters?

Mostly the latter. There's a difference between putting votes on lurkers and asking for prods on lurkers. The second way gets them to say "hey, sorry, I'm here" while the first actually gets them participating.

I am in agreeance with Ripley and M4yhem. Where's the anger? I see none. Does this make him even more town to you Lowell, or.... does it shoot his case down IYO?

Yeah you're right its not that angry. The point originally, however, was to say that I was getting

townie

vibes from Ripley. He should take it as a compliment.

[IH]

Yes, I know, but I wasn't sure if you meant that you were getting vibes from it because he was angry, or not?

[Ripley]

Still, I suggest you have a read through, and if you get anything, even if it’s just a twinge, let us know.

Anyway, Ripley, don’t stop posting because you have nothing to say

I will let you know, you can be sure of that. Maybe that's enough of focusing solely on me now? I mean, I'm not the only one without suspicions. spectrumvoid found nothing despite her 4 readthroughs. She has voted but only to pressure a player to talk, not because she thought him scummy.

Still, I really want to know what Rathyr has to say for himself. He hasn't posted much, but every post he has made lights little flames of doubt in my mind. C'mon guys, you get what I'm saying, don't you?

Mmm-hmm. As for all the prolific posters being town, I disagree. There’s at least one who I consider a good candidate for being in a scum group with Rathyr.

Did you find something more in Rathyr's posts than you've told us? (Maybe it's poor etiquette to be discussing this while his replacement's still catching up, I don't know...) As I said, I just saw lack of interest. There was one thing I didn't understand but I put that down to me being dense:

However, without sounding like a scummy counter-OMGUSer, I think that GC is rather agressive today,

What's a

counter

-OMGUSer? Green Crayons hasn't said anything about Rathyr at this point, though he votes him on the next page. But I don't think "counter-OMGUSer" can mean "someone who attacks another player as retaliation against that player's future attack" - appealing though the concept is.

I agree, it's probably lazy/naive to assume a player who posts a lot is innocent. I would think it's harder for scum to manufacture a lengthy analysis of the game (tough to pretend interest in a puzzle to which you already know the answer, plus the plentiful opportunities for a slipup) than to engage in an equally lengthy dialogue with another player over relatively small matters (less danger, fewer pitfalls, in fact a good opportunity to pour out loads of words that are unlikely to ever incriminate you) - and the long posts in this game have been of the second kind. So I'll keep my mind open.

[wolfsbane]

Ripley, you say you don't have suspicions, but when I look back through your posts I see plenty of digs at Seol, plus some on Rathyr, and LL. Sometimes you say the prolific posters seem town, sometimes you say they could be faking these arguments. You really do seem to have suspicions, but they aren't especially consistent and you aren't voting on them. I get the feeling you're just throwing stuff out there to see if something will stick.

When someone asked why you weren't in the vote count you said it's not your responsibility. Somehow I expect a townie would answer, "really? we should get that fixed" It almost sounds like you actually had noticed it and weren't upset by it. Who benefits from an incorrect vote count?

This quote below where you try to deflect M4yhem's focus on you over to spectrumvoid rubs me the wrong way. Why shouldn't we be focusing on you?

Still, I suggest you have a read through, and if you get anything, even if it’s just a twinge, let us know.

Anyway, Ripley, don’t stop posting because you have nothing to say

I will let you know, you can be sure of that. Maybe that's enough of focusing solely on me now? I mean, I'm not the only one without suspicions. spectrumvoid found nothing despite her 4 readthroughs. She has voted but only to pressure a player to talk, not because she thought him scummy.

So, I'll drop my Echo vote in favor of an

unvote, Vote: Ripley

[LuckayLuck]

vote: IH

.

Vote Count

IH (3) : LuckayLuck, bird111, Seol

Seol...I'm so happy that we're finally masons.
Anyways, this is the last time I mention this silly topic.

But for now, I feel like going

vote: IH

.

You know people are going to ask why, so why not save time and tell us?

I feel like IH has also been slipping further and further into mafia zone, with the failure to provide a single townie tell over all this time and all these posts.




Finally, it's town for my revised Excel Spreadsheet of doom!!! And, I will attempt to "mafiascumize" it - in other words, make it more palatable with more solid explanations.



in alphabetical order:

bird1111 - no surprise, inactive

Echo419 - I will go down to my grave swearing that Echo is a townie. I have several posts attesting to this. Is it WIFOM logic? Yes, but...why hate on WIFOM? It's all we have day1. The particular STYLE and timing and way Echo has spoken really makes me just insist on townie.

GC - your stock has fallen slightly since my last assessment of you, you have been giving off less townie-ish posts under my "strange criteria" of townie tells.

IH - your stock is plummeting. You're such scum. This is because of the following:

1) You have stayed on Echo (which is a terrible vote, in my rogue opinion) for a long time. This is not scummy by itself but combined with:
2) You have asked a lot of questions to many people, insinuating minor scummy things about each one - it's very subtle, and very clever.
3) You have not exhibitied any "townie tells."

Lowell - Post 204 is exactly how I felt, and it's strange that some other people [such as Mayhem and IH] don't see the..."anger" in the post. Ripley made a GREAT post, and I'm sure it was unintentional "anger"...casting suspicion, perhaps, but there -was- something in the tone. (Not just that post either, earlier, you have to admit there was some definite hostility -

Also, I'm waiting for replacements for bird & yellowbounder. Getting the word from those 2 will likely alter my perception a lot.

You really don't have the faintest idea what's going on, do you?

don't worry about it, I deserved it

Ripley's post is something I'll come to later

M4yhem: Somewhat new, made a lot of good posts so far, but I can't really lean either way yet on the meaning of these posts. Your 4 is just carried over from Dodgy. I think I can definitely pin you on something after I see more.

Ogre: Post more, you're at a 6 because Rathyr gave me a slight feel.

Ripley: You made a great entrance. Yes, you've been in the game the entire time but you "showed your colors" with Post 203 finally let me see your style, which SEEMS good. To be determined.

Seol: You continue to ping my townie radar.

Spectrumvoid: Enough re-reading! Give us an opinion!

Wolfsbane: Last, but not least, I want to actually focus on this guy the most because of the folowing reasons:

1) Has gotten ZERO heat so far.
2) I feel like he should get heat. Why?
3)

It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum.

I told him a direct WRONG to this one...and it should be pretty easy to see that this is not true. My mafia tells aren't as good as my townie tells, but what I look for most is for people who don't have to put a puzzle together. Scum have nearly complete information. They may get lazy and slip up and reveal this. I feel like wolfsbane did here. On the contrary, one of my townie tells is obviously people who seem to not have complete information and are piecing things together.
4) Other, miscellaneous, minor reasons which are adding up.

Wolfsbane is my #2 to IH.

[IH]

...LL you frustrate me. I would like to ask you a question about your spreadsheet though. What do you mean by style? Posting style? Style with pazzaz? My timely confetti throwing?

Mm... you have said something though that is true, that I need to get in this game more. I feel like a skimmer = /

I saw something awhile back about SV, and then someone jumping on her for doing four rereads.... Ripley's latest post made me think about it. Hold on a sec.

[LuckayLuck]

What do you mean by style? Posting style?

Yes

[IH]

I'm finding this to be counterproductive. As I believe Seol pointed out (somewhere on page five or six), Day One has nothing to go off of and therefore you start out with the little things and build your way up from there. Spectrum seems to feel as if somehow her readings were going to give her an incredible insight that everyone else failed to pick up on, and that just seems to be irresponsible. You have to start somewhere, and more often than not, that somewhere is very, very small; however, she seems to be neglecting these smaller indicators of suspicion in lieu of the Big Tell that's just waiting to jump out at her. FoS: Spectrum for expecting nothing short of a miracle.

.....It looks like you're trying to DISCOURAGE her from rereading the game here. It seems to me that you're trying to shoot down her 4 rereads, but I believe she replaced in. You also FoSed her because she didn't find anything to much, just people nitpicking at others.

I've completed my 4th readthrough. (I'm lucky this is only 7 pages...)

Currently, I have no scum tells on anyone. The previous pages consist of people picking out weak scum tells, accusing the people who make the scumtell, then other people accusing the accuser for accusing someone with weak reasons. Then other people siding with either the original accuser or the people who are accusing with the accuser. (Yup, I know that's a confusing scummary.)

It's dividing the game for... well like no reason. Just arguments that don't get us anywhere I believe, and I think much of it was over LL's style of play...

(Looks up and still see's townie tells)

.... I swear, you CAN'T just play this game like that. You can't write all of their actions down, put pluses and minuses in them, and expect to catch scum everytime. It's like you set a list of rules down, and expect them to work, like... the mind is a law of science. I do NOT agree with this. That is what makes a game of mafia so fun! It's unexpected, and you're matching wits with one another. Not turning it into a statistical game of tells. pheh
(Sorry for the rant.)

unvote, vote:GC

[Ripley]

Ripley, you say you don't have suspicions, but when I look back through your posts I see plenty of digs at Seol, plus some on Rathyr, and LL.

I was asked am I suspicious of anyone now, not have I at any time been suspicious. I had resolved the issue I had with Seol. I haven't been suspicious of LL that I can recall. I've enjoyed him for his entertainment value, which continues to be first-rate. As for Rathyr, I don't think I said anything about him until my last few posts; what I did say was in response to M4yhem and I don't see that it contains digs.

Sometimes you say the prolific posters seem town, sometimes you say they could be faking these arguments.

Thoughts aren't fixed in stone but change and evolve, sometimes as a result of input from other players, sometimes on their own. Particularly in your first few games where you're seeing situations for the first time.

You really do seem to have suspicions, but they aren't especially consistent and you aren't voting on them. I get the feeling you're just throwing stuff out there to see if something will stick.

I thought the complaints that have been made were that I was

not

throwing anything out there.

This quote below where you try to deflect M4yhem's focus on you over to spectrumvoid rubs me the wrong way. Why shouldn't we be focusing on you?

Because I think the point has been sufficiently made, that people are surprised I don't really find anybody suspicious at this stage and would like to hear from me the moment I do. I have absorbed this thoroughly. I don't see the game benefiting from this being repeated again and again right now. Your reaction actually makes me wonder if you (and possibly others) had an interest in keeping attention focused exclusively on me. I'll think about this some more.

Ripley made a GREAT post, and I'm sure it was unintentional "anger"...casting suspicion, perhaps, but there -was- something in the tone. (Not just that post either, earlier, you have to admit there was some definite hostility -

Also, I'm waiting for replacements for bird & yellowbounder. Getting the word from those 2 will likely alter my perception a lot.

You really don't have the faintest idea what's going on, do you?

don't worry about it, I deserved it

No, no, no. Not hostility at all, not the smallest bit. Amusement, mostly, but not

mocking

amusement even. Friendly amusement. Sorry it came over so badly. Maybe I'd be less misunderstood if I used emoticons, but for some reason I've never liked them.

LL- I don't quite understand this: How is the remark you quoted by wolfsbane: "It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum." - a slip up that shows he has nearly complete information?

[LuckayLuck]

LL- I don't quite understand this: How is the remark you quoted by wolfsbane: "It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum." - a slip up that shows he has nearly complete information?

It looks like to get a 9.5 rating on LL's spreadsheet of doom you just need to attack him - pretty convenient if he's scum. I think the spreadsheet of doom is bogus. LL acts scummy and the people who attack him are pro-town. It is hard to argue with that. I agree with whoever said that you can't bait with scummy behavior. If LL is town then scum could easily put on their best townie act. I'm not convinced that LL could tell the difference. Against LL's crazy antics you can't tell what is scummy and what isn't anymore. There is one easy way to remedy this situation though.

WRONG!
IH has attacked me with just as much vigor as GC / Seol. However, it's all about timing, context...stuff like that. IH has not rang my townie bell.

Ditto Ripley, who I'm unsure of.

It's a generalizationn which definitely does not ring true when even some slight observation is made to my rating system.

[wolfsbane]

When the first spreadsheet of doom was posted three players were rated 9.5: Echo, GC, and Seol. All of these players were attacking you. True, IH was also attacking you and did not get rated as townie, but that doesn't change the fact that every player who got a 9.5 was attacking you at the time.

If a player is rated 9.5 then he is an LL attacker
Echo is rated 9.5
Therefore Echo is an LL attacker

Whether this is significant is open for debate. I said it could be a tactic to get people off your back. It worked with Echo at least. Maybe you are a mafia genius and it's just coincidence.
What is the puzzle I was supposed to be figuring out? Why you left IH off the townie list? I have no way of knowing what goes on in your head. My guess is that random.org had something to do with it. Why don't you just tell us?

[no anger in above post - read with a mildly sarcastic tone]

[M4yhem]

Ripley; spectrumvoid is away. She was ill for some of last week too. I’m sure that when she gets back, she’ll post her suspicions. Until then, I’m going to leave her alone, for obvious reasons.

Maybe that's enough of focusing solely on me now?

Yep. I’ve got what I wanted, anyway.

Did you find something more in Rathyr's posts than you've told us?

I get the feeling he’s being evasive, that’s all. That, and a basic lack of curiosity about the game. As if he knows the answer to the puzzle already...
which is why I’d really like to hear from you, Ogre, if you are reading this.

Actually, I agree that townies get into arguments more frequently than scum. For that reason, GC and Luckay both seem town to me. I give Seol enough credit to fake an argument though, so I’m less willing to label him town. Of all the ‘talky’ players IH’s arguments stand out, to me, as being the weakest, and I may vote for him once I’ve got something out of Ogre.

...LL you frustrate me. I would like to ask you a question about your spreadsheet though. What do you mean by style? Posting style? Style with pazzaz? My timely confetti throwing?

Trying to pick up tips on how to seem more town, IH?

.... I swear, you CAN'T just play this game like that. You can't write all of their actions down, put pluses and minuses in them, and expect to catch scum everytime. It's like you set a list of rules down, and expect them to work, like... the mind is a law of science. I do NOT agree with this. That is what makes a game of mafia so fun! It's unexpected, and you're matching wits with one another. Not turning it into a statistical game of tells. pheh
(Sorry for the rant)

Have you ever heard of Psychology, IH? The mind does work according to the laws of science. Anyway, why do I get the feeling that you don’t want us to listen to Luckay? Why would that be? Has he pegged you AND your scumbuddies already? No wonder you are frustrated.

Meh. I want to see a list of suspects from Ogre, so I can judge whether my gut is right. Until then, vote stays.

confirm vote: Ogre

Fos: IH

[IH]

Trying to pick up tips on how to seem more town, IH?

actually, just trying to find how he came to these conclusions. If he's just going on style..... I didn't know if he meant their playstyle, or their posting style. I'm also still not sure what he means by style....

Thats actually like asking someone something like...

Why was that scummy?

Does that mean they're trying to pick up tips to be more town, or what?

Have you ever heard of Psychology, IH? The mind does work according to the laws of science. Anyway, why do I get the feeling that you don’t want us to listen to Luckay? Why would that be? Has he pegged you AND your scumbuddies already? No wonder you are frustrated.

No, I don't think that you can go through a game, and hope to find scum by plugging plus's and minus's beside them. The mind is not set in steel, as it is clearly moldable, and people's actions change and such. Not everyone is going to go down the same path.

[Green Crayons]

.....It looks like you're trying to DISCOURAGE her from rereading the game here. It seems to me that you're trying to shoot down her 4 rereads, but I believe she replaced in. You also FoSed her because she didn't find anything to much, just people nitpicking at others.

Please show me where I said something along the lines of "Spectrum, don't read and reread over and over again the game. That's bad. Bad, Spectrum, bad, bad, bad." The point of my post was "When you reread the game, don't expect a whopping tell to jump out at you" which is what it appeared she had been expecting with each of her rereads.

That said,

Unvote, Vote: IH

. You consistant misrepresentation of my words as if you're looking for a reason to vote me alongside your horrible logic/lack thereof has finally earned you my vote.

[spectrumvoid]

Sorry about this, break-camp got delayed due to floods and rain.

First off,

unvote

since I see we have a replacement, and my original vote was to get him to say something.

Ripley: So are you saying that people who post huge posts are townie because of the effort they put in? That's simply untrue. IH, for example, posts huge posts everywhere. I've seen mafia posts super long PBPAs in many games too. I'd also argue that sometimes very long posts confuse everyone. I'm not saying the people who have posted the long posts are scummy, I'm just saying that we can't clear them because of that.

I've spent some time thinking about LL. And I've come up with a whole lot of WIFOM logic. I think LL's just has a weird playstyle, but LL isn't scum. Here's why:

1) By posting his list, he immediately draws attention to himself. This generally isn't scummy behaviour. Furthermore, his list is weird... like others have pointed out, people who are scummy generally are people who attack him + other logic that is weak. WIFOM logic, yes, but I really see no reason for any scum to do this.

2) Why would he declare so many people townie? From a townie's perspective, narrowing down the field makes it more likely to lynch scum out of the remainder. From a scum's perspective, wouldn't scum try to muddy the waters by trying to accuse more people? Purpose of the list if LL is scum: to hide his other scum buddies by proclaiming them town. This doesn't make sense because it draws attention to them when we analyse who's on and who's off. (like what I see people have been doing over the last couple of pages.)

About my readthroughs (involving IH and GC)
A short summary: I say that I've read through, and I've not come up with anything. GC foses me for expecting a miracle. IH accuses of GC of telling me not to read the game. GC clarifies.

While I wasn't expecting a miracle, I always read when I replace in. This helps me get a better grasp of everyone. I disagree that I'll definitely not get a town/scum tell after the read. I've replaced into 10+ games, and around 75% of the time I get something, may not be definite, but something (unfortunately, not in this game though). Then again, I don't see GC scummy for jumping on me, since it was my fault for not clarifying my objective in doing the reads in the first place, and I don't see IH scummy for jumping on GC, because when I first read GC's post, that's exactly what I thought. And GC isn't scummy because he's clarification makes sense. This whole episode just consisted of nitpicking, and poor choice of words.

Now let me go take a look at who I find scummy.

[IH]

SV, you're two points on LL... I'm not sure if you meant it or not, but you do know that that is terribly wifom?

1)Perhaps he was anticipating this. Perhaps he was not. I mean it's just a general playstyle, so I don't really think it means anything about his alignment of "drawing attention to himself". If it's a protown behaviour, you can be guaranteed that scum will try to mimic it.

(Anyone know the correct spelling of guarantee anyway? Is that it?)

2)His list looks more like its a little... flexible. I dunno, but judging from his earlier explanations, he changes it to however it suits him and we'd never know.... as we're not exactly sure about what he's saying about them. Timing, style, etc? He'll give us two posts or so for an example, and just... have that as all but totally clearing them.

Pheh, just showing you the error in your logic, but I do agree that LL is more likely to be town IMO.

GC, either I'm misinterpreting what you've said, or you just don't like how it was brought about, but this is why I try to include full quotes. So I have where I drew my conclusions from. I am most certainly not "Misrepresenting" you, but it just looks to me like you FoSed SV for.... well.... rereading the game.

= / I calls em how I sees em.