/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[DeasVail]

I think it's the same as the one in Zach's game (except for the 2-shot part).

[Vi]

Ow, sorry, I'm about to go to work so I can't reply in bigness to Vi's hatred. (Why is it CES and you take turns between fighting to sucker punch me every time I post?)

Just to see if you're paying attention!

I think I go out of my way not to point out the scummy things I'm doing as scum, but I haven't scoured myself to check it. Good to know where you want the scrambling directed to though. Not that I'm bitter.

Well you're one of a few people I'd rather see the scramble go toward (see rainbow post), but if you want to volunteer~

I just have one question, are you -sure- that you're a Vanilla cop that looks for the word Vanilla and not a Vanilla Cop that looks to see if someone has a role or not, ie a Mafia Goon would trigger a positive from your role as well?

I'm -sure-. Otherwise I prrrrrobably wouldn't be nearly this confident on investigating a scum read.

--

So your role is a slightly stronger (but 2-shot) version of the one in Zach's game, Vi?

Before checking my wiki, my response was: Which Zach game?
After checking my wiki, my response is: Which Zach game?

How much, if any, reading did you do overnight?

None at all!
Any other attempts to discredit me in mind? I've got all day.*

*all day = 73 hours

[Nachomamma8]

This is bullshit.

Double ISO yourself and CES, control+F "Shadoweh", and call it bullshit again. You both interact with Shadoweh a little and attack her early game, then go into ignoring her for a little while, then she ends up being "D1 leftovers" for both of you. It's interesting, yeah.

This is denying the obvious under a buzzword.

...no. Calling yourself town for Johhog the PR dying is stupid.

This not only doesn't relate to the quote that it's under, but a scumteam pick is ludicrous, especially if you're going to follow up with "but how can they be on a team?".

CES works in teams, you had been flitting from place to place recently and I wanted to see where your scumreads were. I don't understand the rest of this at all.

And this is you positioning yourself to be on your wagon. I'm tempted to tell you to vote me and get it over with since that's clearly where you're going with this.

It surprises me that you say this because I have been waffling hard as shit recently.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

NY 146.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Llamarble

I'm going to revisit his Day 1 wagon, but his play today makes me want to play around with this for a little while.

[Llamarble]

And you know what? On one hand this honestly came across as mildly offensive the first time I read it; on the other hand I think the chance of me making it to tomorrow unscathed is very low and after those last two posts I kind of want to screw over as many wrong and scummy people as I can.

I didn't mean to be offensive
Anyway, I approve your list.
Also, this claim is believable / very well done if scum. Why are you still voting Vi CES?

P. Edit: hahaha good luck with that Nacho.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I need to think and I'm busy.

[Nachomamma8]

Wicked, CES, Konowa, DV are Ps of I.
Vi, Empire, Tierce, OGML if he towns, and Nacho I feel good about.
Shadoweh and Tammy probably go in the townpile and Benmage probably is in the dubious pile, but I haven't read those recently.
And I make 13, so yeah this is probably now a 3:10 mini normal.

I think this could've provoked the scumkill.
Johhog also accused Empire of playing differently, so maybe Empire's an effortscum, which would also probably fit with a Konowascum. Guess I need to reread him.
I hope Shadoweh is town. Fortunately I don't see anything to push me off that opinion.
Benmage is meh. He could be town, though his contribution did die down some after the early flurry.
So I think we ought to choose from CES Wicked & Konowa today.

I could have guessed what declarations he would've made in reference to the people he reread before he even started rereading. Bringing up "oh, yeah, this is probably why scum shot Johhog" is strange to me as well. At first I thought bringing up immediately meant he was probably town, but there's the fact that he sets it up with the previous post that ruins it for me. Calling Benmage town for early game contribution is weird, don't really like it.

It's hard to casemake about CES.
I want to say how he treated me this game is funny, but it's different from the Revolution mafia buddying because he voted me for a non-bad reason first.
PoE is part of my vote. And CES' voting does work from scum.
I've disengaged for long enough that I will probably mindchange considerably when I reread tomorrow, but we'll see.

Using PoE to vote someone who can read you is a bit strange, but I don't really know how Llamarble deals with CES as scum. The "oh yeah mind will probably change tomorrow" is a very Llamarble-esque thing to say, but zero rereading in his next posts to the hop off Konowa to "yeah I'm not touching Vi/CES right now" when the wagon is going nicely doesn't feel right to me, and the jump back onto CES's wagon when Vi started making the bigger posts felt like Llama being reassured that the wagon was actually going through.

And let's not forget this:

Honestly the thing that worries me most about this is the insistence that there must be one scum between me and CES. Regardless of how I feel about the Dutchie, being forced into a situation where it's possible that both of us are Town and the lynch is just kind of ~decided~ to be between one of us for vague reasons ("well they're the ones arguing, and it's taken up the whole day [because literally half the game isn't posting], and when two people go after each other all the time like this is must be TownVscum") is setting off giant red fireworks.

I suppose with 4 days left the most productive thing to do with today is attack the main issue of discussion.
I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?

P. Edit: hahaha good luck with that Nacho.

Thanks!

[Empire]

Ok, I'm back and I've read through the stuff I've missed. Some of this will probably be scattered since I'm exhausted, but whatever YOLO.

I had a lot of stuff to say about Vi that's basically been voided by his claim (which I think is real). Tammy, or anyone else, if you're really curious about my thoughts on Vi pre-claim, go ahead and ask but I'd rather not waste page space. Vi, re: #904 and Benmage, I just looked over his play in Heroes of Comedy there and I think there's a pretty huge difference between his push on MoI that game and his push on you here. He was a lot more intense and involved with his MoI-tunnel in that game as opposed to here which makes me think he'd come at you much harder if he were scum in this game. And I don't think his accusation in #595 was "extra ridiculous", the discrediting point made a lot of sense to me at the time especially considering you really did the same thing to me in Black Flag as I was getting my mega-case ready.

~~~

Tammy, I think I have a lot more reservations about CES's play than you do. You do make a good point about CES sliding off the Llamarble wagon as I think he'd definitely use Llamarble's claimed playstyle shift as ammo as scum and would have kept pushing for that lynch. Aside from the other stuff I don't like about his Vi-push, what bugs me is that he wasn't really at the forefront of the initial Llamarble push. In Abarat and White Flag, he pushed Llamarble pretty early and hard and I'd go so far as to say he led those wagons. Here, he doesn't really do anything with Llamarble until suspicion mounts against him. And I don't get where you're coming from when you say he hasn't been manipulative because stuff like #933's "Do you have some kind of Revolution mafia related trauma where you can't side with me?" seems pretty damn manipulative to me.

On the other hand, there's some stuff that feels pretty townish from CES -- particularly #896 (which was the reason I unvoted before I left). I know CES plays a really stiff/tight scum game so I believe him when he says he would have taken some care to make sure he didn't come off badly when presenting arguments. Him coming off to a false start at the beginning of today (his admission that his posts to start the day off were based on a misreading) doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum. And then there's posts like #539 and his frustration with Llamarble "not towninating" in #259 that read genuine -- actually, aside from the late start, his entire interaction with Llamarble seemed townish. I do want to know, though, why he thought the CTD wagon was anti-town.

So basically, the long and short of this is that I have no clue on CES and I wish he were as easy to read as Regfan.

~~~

DV, why did you post #936?

Nacho's #957 -- I wasn't trying to make that point at all or compare Wicked to Benmage whatsoever. My point was that Wicked seems competent as scum, hasn't played in a while, and hasn't played with the overwhelming majority of the roster. So him saying he was struggling early in the game seems genuine to me and not exactly the kind of angle I see him faking this game as scum. Take a look at the Micro I referenced. He had no problems taking hard stances and generally being very on top of his game there so I don't really see the scum motivation for him in particular to admit to struggling early on.

~~~

I'm going to think things over for a bit because I don't think Vi is scum and I'm really wishy-washy on CES and nearly everyone else looks town in some form of another so I'm going to reread or something. If I were forced to vote someone right now, it'd probably be OGML because the way he just kind quit pushing the Benmage vote seems really off from what I remember of his play in Micro 53. There, he basically tunneled Equinox really hard and actively campaigned for the vote, even when nearly the entire roster was townreading her...he only relented and compromised when deadline was nearing. Here, he just kinda limply placed his vote on Benmage calling it "a layup" but he never provided any reasoning for it and fell off the vote easily. But then there's the whole N replace-out situation + that slot's interactions with CTD and then I realize I hate this game.

Did I say fuck this game yet?

[Empire]

Oh forgot something.

Llamarble, what exactly seemed dicey about Konowa's further elaboration on what he was doing with his Tierce townread? I thought that whole explanation was pretty town assuming that Konowa had prior knowledge of how Tierce perceives him as I don't think he'd do something he knows would just draw him a lot of negative attention as scum.

[Empire]

Sorry for the triple post but I just checked out NY 146 to get the full details on the Vanilla Cop role and Vi, you reviewed this game.

[Llamarble]

You're silly Nacho; please try to make sense.

Wicked, CES, Konowa, DV are Ps of I.
Vi, Empire, Tierce, OGML if he towns, and Nacho I feel good about.
Shadoweh and Tammy probably go in the townpile and Benmage probably is in the dubious pile, but I haven't read those recently.
And I make 13, so yeah this is probably now a 3:10 mini normal.

I think this could've provoked the scumkill.
Johhog also accused Empire of playing differently, so maybe Empire's an effortscum, which would also probably fit with a Konowascum. Guess I need to reread him.
I hope Shadoweh is town. Fortunately I don't see anything to push me off that opinion.
Benmage is meh. He could be town, though his contribution did die down some after the early flurry.
So I think we ought to choose from CES Wicked & Konowa today.

I could have guessed what declarations he would've made in reference to the people he reread before he even started rereading. Bringing up "oh, yeah, this is probably why scum shot Johhog" is strange to me as well. At first I thought bringing up immediately meant he was probably town, but there's the fact that he sets it up with the previous post that ruins it for me. Calling Benmage town for early game contribution is weird, don't really like it.

In what way were my reread results predictable and why is that a bad thing? Why is it even slightly strange that me finding Johhog's pseudosoftclaim happens alongside me looking at people who might have had other motives to kill Johhog (Johhog calling Empire scum). I don't even see how my previous post set up reading Johhog, so ???. Also I didn't call Benmage town for contributing early; I explicitly found that cause for suspicion, so ???.

It's hard to casemake about CES.
I want to say how he treated me this game is funny, but it's different from the Revolution mafia buddying because he voted me for a non-bad reason first.
PoE is part of my vote. And CES' voting does work from scum.
I've disengaged for long enough that I will probably mindchange considerably when I reread tomorrow, but we'll see.

Using PoE to vote someone who can read you is a bit strange, but I don't really know how Llamarble deals with CES as scum. The "oh yeah mind will probably change tomorrow" is a very Llamarble-esque thing to say, but zero rereading in his next posts to the hop off Konowa to "yeah I'm not touching Vi/CES right now" when the wagon is going nicely doesn't feel right to me, and the jump back onto CES's wagon when Vi started making the bigger posts felt like Llama being reassured that the wagon was actually going through.

Why would whether he can read me be relevant? Why is my noting my use of PoE relevant? You were my scumbuddy in a game where CES torched us, so I don't see how it's possible for you to have no notion of how I have dealt with him as scum. Why is it that mescum would jump off a wagon that was "going nicely" and then later rejoin because it seemed to be... going nicely???

And let's not forget this:

Honestly the thing that worries me most about this is the insistence that there must be one scum between me and CES. Regardless of how I feel about the Dutchie, being forced into a situation where it's possible that both of us are Town and the lynch is just kind of ~decided~ to be between one of us for vague reasons ("well they're the ones arguing, and it's taken up the whole day [because literally half the game isn't posting], and when two people go after each other all the time like this is must be TownVscum") is setting off giant red fireworks.

I suppose with 4 days left the most productive thing to do with today is attack the main issue of discussion.
I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?

Which is relevant / bad because ???
Also I went so far as to attempt to drive things in another direction after having difficulty resolving CES/Vi, so you get more ????s.
After I got no traction / interest from others, I took another stab at figuring out CES / Vi, decided Vi was town until further notice and CES had a solid chance of being scum. Sounds to me like I was town doing townie things. I certainly don't 'insist one of CES or Vi must be scum' so yeah, this line is both not a scumtell and totally wrong in multiple ways.

Empire, CES has seen me explode on people who I think have seen enough to get me right but persist in attempting to lynch me. And he certainly knows the odds of getting me mislynched are extremely low, barring silliness. I don't think based on previous experience with me town that he scum would believe continuing to try to lynch me was a good idea.

As for Konowa, he makes a lot of stabs at justifying himself instead of just saying "I approved your DV vote," and I didn't particularly like the pieces in the end. Not to mention he actually claimed scum with the statement "Her DV vote is what I would have done as town" .

Vi being a reviewer of 146 is interesting.

[Tierce]

#stillnotcontent: Vi, your rainbow pattern is broken. Though I do appreciate the red pick.

Vi and CES should both vote Shadoweh.

[Vi]

This is bullshit.

Double ISO yourself and CES, control+F "Shadoweh", and call it bullshit again. You both interact with Shadoweh a little and attack her early game, then go into ignoring her for a little while, then she ends up being "D1 leftovers" for both of you. It's interesting, yeah.

How so?

^^^That's not a rhetorical question. How is it interesting?

And this is you positioning yourself to be on your wagon. I'm tempted to tell you to vote me and get it over with since that's clearly where you're going with this.

It surprises me that you say this because I have been waffling hard as shit recently.

Still feeling fine with a Wicked lynch, but I want to focus a lot more on CES-Vi today.

...which you have. Maybe if you're waffling about which of CES or Vi to vote, I suppose. See also the end of 982.

I didn't mean to be offensive

I'm kind of offendable right now. :/

I had a lot of stuff to say about Vi that's basically been voided by his claim (which I think is real).

"You're welcome" or "Sorry", depending on which is more appropriate.

Sorry for the triple post but I just checked out NY 146 to get the full details on the Vanilla Cop role and Vi, you reviewed this game.

...a year and a half ago. Your choice as to whether you buy that I picked this role up out of one of dozens I've reviewed (this one in particular being from two Octobers ago) and then tried to cover my tracks by elaborately saying I'd never heard of the game before since it wasn't on my wiki.

Vi being a reviewer of 146 is interesting.

I find this interesting too! Do continue.

[Llamarble]

It got me thinking that if you were going to fakeclaim a role 2 shot vanilla cop doesn't sound unreasonable.
Meh, you're still town.

[Empire]

...holy shit, can someone who knows what they're doing tell me if Konowa perspective slipped in #312?

Empire, CES has seen me explode on people who I think have seen enough to get me right but persist in attempting to lynch me. And he certainly knows the odds of getting me mislynched are extremely low, barring silliness. I don't think based on previous experience with me town that he scum would believe continuing to try to lynch me was a good idea.

My point is that he could have used the playstyle shift against you if he were scum as an argument to get you lynched.

[Faraday]

Untrod Tripod replaces konowa

[Untrod Tripod]

WHAT'S UP WHAT'S UP WHAT'S UP IN THE HIZZY

I'll be reading this tonight/tomorrow

[Tammy]

Apparently st. Party's day parades last a long time in la.

I can barely stay awake any longer, so I'll respond to what I can in snippets until I pass out and get to the rest tomorrow.

Empire - on that konowa post. I don't know what you're looking at. He didn't explain it that way earlier I think? Idk.

Maybe a fresh set of eyes can help clear up one of this murkiness here.

As far as vanilla cop. I'll have to go back and look at ny146 tomorrow, but I think magua basically explaining that it was essentially a regular cop in that a goon wouldn't come back vanilla. In Kanyes game, I was a mafia vanilla who came back vanilla to the rolecop, but that was explicitly in the rule set and the rolecop knew the mafia goon would come back vanilla.

But vi why did you choose wicked to investigate?

[Tammy]

Okay yeah, magua said that the vanilla cop could be used to clear vt's as really being innocent as well as bust any fake claims. Okay don't know how helpful that is.

[Tammy]

Tierce - why the scum read on shadoweh?

OH I see it. It took llamarble pointing it out. Empire is what you're talking about when konowa says "it's what I would have done as town?".

[Tammy]

Tammy, I think I have a lot more reservations about CES's play than you do. You do make a good point about CES sliding off the Llamarble wagon as I think he'd definitely use Llamarble's claimed playstyle shift as ammo as scum and would have kept pushing for that lynch. Aside from the other stuff I don't like about his Vi-push, what bugs me is that he wasn't really at the forefront of the initial Llamarble push. In Abarat and White Flag, he pushed Llamarble pretty early and hard and I'd go so far as to say he led those wagons. Here, he doesn't really do anything with Llamarble until suspicion mounts against him. And I don't get where you're coming from when you say he hasn't been manipulative because stuff like #933's "Do you have some kind of Revolution mafia related trauma where you can't side with me?" seems pretty damn manipulative to me.

On the other hand, there's some stuff that feels pretty townish from CES -- particularly #896 (which was the reason I unvoted before I left). I know CES plays a really stiff/tight scum game so I believe him when he says he would have taken some care to make sure he didn't come off badly when presenting arguments. Him coming off to a false start at the beginning of today (his admission that his posts to start the day off were based on a misreading) doesn't seem like something he'd do as scum. And then there's posts like #539 and his frustration with Llamarble "not towninating" in #259 that read genuine -- actually, aside from the late start, his entire interaction with Llamarble seemed townish. I do want to know, though, why he thought the CTD wagon was anti-town.

So basically, the long and short of this is that I have no clue on CES and I wish he were as easy to read as Regfan.

Did I say fuck this game yet?

That was exactly the problem I had with ces...that he didn't push on llamarble right away.

Eh, I don't really see that as too manipulative. I think I've seen him make statements along those lines as town before and it feels kinda straight up? Idk when I think of ces and manipulative, I think of him being a bit more underhanded? I mean I guess I don't know.

Yeah, either as easy to read as regfan or that chamber was assigned to this game.

No, but fuck this game too! Will you hurry up and be decisive about something? I'm entering my whimper stage and need someone to sheep.

[Untrod Tripod]

unvote, vote CES

for now

preliminary scumread having skimmed is CES so I'm happy for my vote to sit there for now

[Untrod Tripod]

sheep me, Tammy, I'm a PRETTY COOL GUY who KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING

[Llamarble]

#stillnotcontent: Vi, your rainbow pattern is broken. Though I do appreciate the red pick.

Vi and CES should both vote Shadoweh.

Can you explain Shadowehscum please?
I was kind of figuring she'd die soon if town, what with the "if I were a vig I would shoot CTD without a claim" business.

Who wants to just lynch Benmage?