Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Ether]

Well, thanks to its placement among the cop/doctor setup, a mafia roleblocker seems like the obvious replacement. A gaoler, a town roleblocker and a scum roleblocker in the same setup seems like a headache, but I guess you could either shift columns or just say that the scum roleblocker trumps either of the town ones, stick with your gaoler > town roleblocker judgment and call it a day.

Honestly I'm sort of uncertain about having a town roleblocker in the first place?

[quadz08]

I think 3 blocking roles sounds awful; it's a headache for the mod and the players.

[Cheery Dog]

I think the current proposed setup is Quilford's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as necessary for 2:7.

A friend of mine and I were talking and we were thinking that JK and RB should be switched, same with Cop/Doc; allows for avoiding RB/Cop vs. Rolecop, which is horribly townsided.

goon v JK/Cop is even more townsided.

I think it without diagonal options would be better, it removes the higher chance of town roleblocker from the setupand each square gets the same amount of possible uses. (2)

[Quilford]

I think it without diagonal options would be better, it removes the higher chance of town roleblocker from the setupand each square gets the same amount of possible uses. (2)

Neither of these are really a good thing, really? The only advantage I see to removing diagonals is that it gets rid of the Cop + RB + Rolecop setup, which people think could be townsided (but I kinda disagree).

[Quilford]

What should the setup be called? Matrix6?

I like 8Matrix or Matrix8 if we're not going to remove the diagonals.

[Quilford]

I don't really see anything wrong with having Town Roleblocker and Mafia Strongman in there. They're both pretty simple roles, and whilst Strongman's not common, it's not very rare either.

[zoraster]

Strongman is a great newbie role. It is easy to understand, it works well in a 9 player game, and it helps make some setups available without a roleblocker.

though if we do make this change, we should also change the normal rules to add strongman (should already be a greenlit role anyway, honestly). I don't like the idea of newbie games having non-normal roles, but that's easy to fix.

[Zachrulez]

that's a weird solution. it seems like the RB should get priority over a JK if anyone does, but i guess so long as there's a policy.

Yeah, I'd favor the roleblocker.

[singersigner]

Ok, then the roleblocker?

[Remembrance]

Yes, it makes sense that they get priority, from a canonical perspective.

[Quilford]

I'd also favour the roleblocker, thinking about it.

[Cheery Dog]

I think it without diagonal options would be better, it removes the higher chance of town roleblocker from the setupand each square gets the same amount of possible uses. (2)

Neither of these are really a good thing, really? The only advantage I see to removing diagonals is that it gets rid of the Cop + RB + Rolecop setup, which people think could be townsided (but I kinda disagree).

I think it's because if one mafia goes down town practically has two cops.
(but then tracker + roleblocker is the same thing anyway.)
I don't actually have a problem with the cop+rb v rc problem, as the main purpose of my post was to laugh at human destroyer changing one apperently townsided setup to make a different setup even more townsided.
(the jk swapping with the rb, makes a cop/jk v rc (which is a slight problem in 2of4) and the cop/doc switch would give the same thing except that mafia wouldn't even have a rolecop)

[Cheery Dog]

Also when you make the new queue, you should remove the replacements section (our at least the part that says they're ok call unless that comes back)

Also are back up mods only required for those that choose to mod a newbie as their second game?
(I'm confused by the queue changes thread which said they're not required for those missing a litchi)

[Tierce]

I agree that the standards for being an IC could be a little bit more strict, but at the current moment, there's no real standard other than "don't be mean" and "even if you aren't good, know what you should be doing...sort of." What kind of concrete standards can we implement, that don't rely as heavily on my subjective judgement?

The purpose of the newbie queue is to instruct and acclimate new players to the site; as such, I think that ICs should have a certain number of finished games outside the newbie queue before applying (preferably not in the Micro queue, due to the small game dimensions there). This already happens in the great majority of the cases, but it's a good requirement to have set in place--if nothing else, it shows that the purpose of the newbie queue is not to have players ever-languishing in newbie games, but to prepare them for larger and more complex games if they so desire, and that they have a person in the game they can trust to have the knowledge necessary to acclimate them.

I'd be more inclined to a minimum of two games outside RtR than a single non-RtR game; most players who sign in to IC will have been outside the newbie queue for a while, anyway.

[Human Destroyer]

I don't actually have a problem with the cop+rb v rc problem, as the main purpose of my post was to laugh at human destroyer changing one apperently townsided setup to make a different setup even more townsided.
(the jk swapping with the rb, makes a cop/jk v rc (which is a slight problem in 2of4) and the cop/doc switch would give the same thing except that mafia wouldn't even have a rolecop)

That was me being a derp and not realizing that made Cop/JK vs. Goon/Goon >.>

[Zachrulez]

I agree that the standards for being an IC could be a little bit more strict, but at the current moment, there's no real standard other than "don't be mean" and "even if you aren't good, know what you should be doing...sort of." What kind of concrete standards can we implement, that don't rely as heavily on my subjective judgement?

The purpose of the newbie queue is to instruct and acclimate new players to the site; as such, I think that ICs should have a certain number of finished games outside the newbie queue before applying (preferably not in the Micro queue, due to the small game dimensions there). This already happens in the great majority of the cases, but it's a good requirement to have set in place--if nothing else, it shows that the purpose of the newbie queue is not to have players ever-languishing in newbie games, but to prepare them for larger and more complex games if they so desire, and that they have a person in the game they can trust to have the knowledge necessary to acclimate them.

I'd be more inclined to a minimum of two games outside RtR than a single non-RtR game; most players who sign in to IC will have been outside the newbie queue for a while, anyway.

I think we're starting to care too much where experience comes from and not in what the most important quality in being an IC actually is, which is the ability to play the game, and the ability to teach people new to the game how to play. In the grand scheme of things, how people learn those qualities doesn't really matter.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I tried my hand at the matrix format. Rows and columns:

Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town Nonconsecutive Commuter	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

There's a little less power generally which is good and we avoid the strongman. RB issues still exist (both in RB vs. JK and RBlynch being really bad for the scum in the Cop-Doc set-up) but are lessened (you don't need to decide on an order-based resolotion or NAT (what if the jailkeeper targets the roleblocker who targets someone else?) and the disastrous RBlynch only occurs in one of the two set-up). The commuter is admittedly a little inelegant.

[Human Destroyer]

I tried my hand at the matrix format. Rows and columns:

Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town Nonconsecutive Commuter	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

There's a little less power generally which is good and we avoid the strongman. RB issues still exist (both in RB vs. JK and RBlynch being really bad for the scum in the Cop-Doc set-up) but are lessened (you don't need to decide on an order-based resolotion or NAT (what if the jailkeeper targets the roleblocker who targets someone else?) and the disastrous RBlynch only occurs in one of the two set-up). The commuter is admittedly a little inelegant.

• 6x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Cop, 2x Mafia Goon
  
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Doctor, 1x Mafia Roleblocker, 1x Mafia Goon
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Non-Consecutive Night Commuter, 1x Town Tracker, 2x Mafia Goon
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Cop, 1x Town Non-Consecutive Night Commuter, 1x Mafia Roleblocker, 1x Mafia Goon
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Doctor, 1x Town Cop, 2x Mafia Goon
  
  
• 5x Vanilla Townie, 1x Town Non-Consecutive Night Commuter, 1x Town Cop, 2x Mafia Goon
  
• 4x Vanilla Townie, 2x Town Cop, 1x Town Tracker, 2x Mafia Goon

The bolded setup appears twice.

The italicized two seem town-sided. Especially the second one.

[quadz08]

I don't think it's nearly as well balanced as Quilford's, and I think the strongman is a much better role for newbies than a commuter. That's a personal preference thing, though.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Whoops. Had Cop somewhere that should've been jailkeeper.

No diagonals, HD.

[Human Destroyer]

Oh, really?

I thought there was, heh. I probably should've figured it out before I posted that considering how ridiculous it sounded but oh well.

[mcqueen]

i know it's probably a little bastard-ish for newbies, but i always considered - and have seen it used for newbies on another site - godfather one of the main mafia roles, such as vt/cop/doc/rber/jker, etc are main town roles, others are usually added on for other types of setups (with exception to rber, as it's not used in newbies atm, but that's because we use a jker). but i also think it's important for newbies to have a little bit of a challenge involved, having the same setup is going to get repititive, and not going to teach newbies much about mafia.

adding a gf, or a random setup :
- 1 mafia goon
- 5 vts
- 1 of the following combos : godfather, cop , and doc (since gf is immune to cop, add the doc in, hope thats balanced) | rolecop, cop, and rber/jker | goon, cop, vt

that would also keep it so that newbies would always experience 1 pr (cop), with the possibility of more. it also adds a little bit of a mix, and the gf, cop, doc adds a bit of a challenge.

although, if there is a godfather in the game, i think the setup should be announced, as blindly having a gf in the game is not a good approach for a newbie game, but if they know they have one, and know what it does, it should be okay, it just makes them have to think a little harder, and the cop have to be careful when they investigate. as long as they know about it, i think adding a gf would be a good way to go.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't think it's nearly as well balanced as Quilford's, and I think the strongman is a much better role for newbies than a commuter. That's a personal preference thing, though.

If you match up the six set-ups as follows, I don't think any set-up becomes less balanced (first is Quilford's, second is mine):
Cop -> Cop
Jailkeeper, Mafia Rolecop -> Jailkeeper
Jailkeeper, Town Roleblocker, 1-shot Strongman -> Jailkeeper, Nonconsecutive Commuter, Mafia Roleblocker
Tracker, Doctor, Mafia Role Cop -> Tracker, Nonconsecutive Commuter
Cop, Doctor, 1-shot Strongman -> Cop, Doctor, Mafia Roleblocker
Town Roleblocker, Tracker -> Doctor, Tracker

I'm not particularly thrilled about Commuter either but it seems worth it if only to avoid Roleblocker+Tracker (any scum lynch turns both PRs into Cops?)

[Cheery Dog]

With Roleblocker + Tracker there is a chance that the tracker could "guilty" the roleblocker, but that is ruined by the claim since the tracker in Quilford's in guaranteed to have another PR in the game.
(scum could claim the other one, but if there is only one left, that's suicide for the team)

[Leafsnail]

Eh, have a roleblocker exist in all 2 power role setups, and have no scum power when only 1 exists? Results in weaker scum teams when town power is weaker but gives scum room to fakeclaim in those setups. (I think it's important not to encourage a meta where uncountered claims are considered town so having setups where scum can make uncountered claims is somewhat important to me.)

That should eliminate the concept of a cop being guaranteed to exist when a roleblocker does because that throws a few roleblocker setups in where one doesn't.

What I'm proposing would look like this.

1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons

I like the general idea, but a successful roleblock would effectively confirm both PRs and might actually be a bad thing for scum. Seems weird.