Mini 391 - Fairytale Mafia, Game Over

[Dodgy]

Wolf, how can you say

I left my vote on you because you didn't answer my accusation about attempting to push a Rathyr bandwagon

I have at NO time tried to start a bandwagon on Rath. I merely

FOS'd

him.
That does not constitute a bandwagon by any terms LOL.
I'm not trying to use the "cos" thing for any reason, apart from that of trying to explain my use of the term to those that had voted me for using it.
I think youre getting very defensive over something strangely small.
Now if that doesn't answer your question, I suggest you go whistle mate!

[LuckayLuck]

Jeez. You are, if nothing else, thorough.

Please provide links to games where you used this "strategy" on other forums.

I'm so hesitant to do this because I'm a nutjob there. Okay fine, here too. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showf ... page=&vc=1
Reading through day1 should be enough to get to know my general style. No, I don't implement this specific "strategy" but I implement the same general concepts. Villager tells, an excel spreadsheet of doom, crazy theories. The background of the forum which I come from is a lot more casual from this, one-day-day/nights, everyone pretty much knows each other, etc. If it's any consolation, I seriously have a very good townie/mafia list throughout.

Are you saying that the comment was

intended

to be read as inflammatory and unjustified? Did you have any reasons to pick myself and GC? If so, what were they?

If I say that somebody has a townie tell (or, townie feeling, townie-ish, whatever), I am 100% serious. In my mind, it is justified...I mostly call them townie tells because some of them are the psychological quirks which townies tend to do (you would call this WIFOM, I use WIFOM a lot, don't diss WIFOM). Some of them are more solid evidence such as timing of responses and etc.

Okay, I'll reveal the reasons why I picked you and GC.

Initially, Seol, I picked you because you made a super-awesome accurate post. It's not just length either, it's...style, Type of response. You will no doubt try to pull off the same type of post as a wolf now that I know you slightly better and have seen more of your posting style, but I still believe you to be the #1 villager here as of RIGHT NOW. What really rang the townie alarm, however, was:

Luckay, I've got a newsflash for you. You're not Pooky.

Are you playing to win, or to dick around?

A mafia just can't possibly make THIS post 30 minutes after my crazy proposal of masonry. It's near impossible. This is my townie tell on you, Seol. As I said, I'm 95% sure you're a townie after that little bit.

I now "TRUST" and "FOLLOW" what you say exactly - because you've demosntrated the almighty townie tell. Could I have gotten the tell and had it strengthen even more now by first offering "masonry" and then by stating "95% townie" and such? No way! And you've followed that up with:

Are you playing to win?

Yes, I'm playing to win.
And I believe I've nailed you down as a townie. If you are indeed a townie, as I'm 95% sure of now, you should recognize that this is valuable information that can only be good.

Except

there's no information!

Blind trust is

dangerous

, informed trust is fine but I don't see any evidence of that. I don't want you to trust

anyone

without reason, including myself.

just 20 minutes after my retort. Seol, you're like 99% villager. And in my world, if I don't say 100%, it means I'm not using BLIND TRUST. I have turned around and lynched / led lynches for those who I have trusted as near-masons in other games. I have turned around and mason-ed with those who I have led lynches for. My style is very flexible, it provides the type of tells that I can see as useful whereas others might not, most of these tells if I presented them would get smacked down with the WIFOM argument...but you know what? WIFOM is legit evidence townies / mafia.

Seol, think of how important the input of a confirmed villager (via seer, for example) is. Townies can finally take the villager's word as gospel and argue directly with him about it with no nagging feeling in their mind "hmm...but...but...maybe he's mafia." Even those one sees as mostly townie...it can never come close to seeing someone as a confirmed townie or as a mason. I manage to do that, I frame it in my mind that someone I have a townie tell on IS a confirmed townie or a mason and treat them as such. A silly crazy exercise? No, it really helps me see their true intentions, gets you thinking on their level unlike that of just reading what they have to say. Sort of hard to explain.

The best thing is, if my mason seems strange at all, and this is something that can only really be seen from really treating your target as a mason and then sensing that slight disturbance...you have the best mafia tell of all time. Because your mason is supposed to be the best villager in the game.



Just...you'll have to recognize that I have a slightly different playstyle. Am I undermining the town? No, I help the town. Sometimes, I feel like a defense attorney for those about to get lynched. More often than not, and it's gotten a lot better recently, I've managed to stop townies from getting lynched / townies did get lynched but I did call it correctly and defended them. Am I ACTIVELY trying to generate reactions from saying "Controversial Target X is a townie"? This is secondary, really...as I've suggested, if this entire concept seems like pure crazy-talk, interpret my actions thus far as:

"I feel that Seol and Green Crayons are leaning townie."

Oh, I missed the reasons for why GC is townie. GC is townie because we had an argument over punctuation. We worked it out. Most importantly, however, GC has sifted one by one across all players who post something of worth. Votes all over the place. In some cases, this is a wolf tell, but in this particular context / voting style it is a townie tell.


Seol, someday...someday, we'll be masons.

[wolfsbane]

Wolf, how can you say

I left my vote on you because you didn't answer my accusation about attempting to push a Rathyr bandwagon

I have at NO time tried to start a bandwagon on Rath. I merely

FOS'd

him.
That does not constitute a bandwagon by any terms LOL.

So, you weren't trying to influence players' opinion of Rathyr in any way with that strange abbreviation? You would have been shocked and dismayed had someone placed a third vote on him after noting your increased suspicion?

I'm not trying to use the "cos" thing for any reason, apart from that of trying to explain my use of the term to those that had voted me for using it.
I think youre getting very defensive over something strangely small.
Now if that doesn't answer your question, I suggest you go whistle mate!

You weren't expecting an argumentative response after telling me to "use my own brain", stop using abbreviations, and calling my contributions useless? Yes, I get defensive when I log in and people are calling me stupid.
Your personal insults distracted me and I thought the "cos" stuff was directed at me as well, but now I see that it wasn't. Sorry about that.
You are correct. There was no question to answer – except maybe, “Would you have Finger Of Suspicioned Rathyr had he not been voting you?” – but there isn’t much point in hearing your answer to that. I guess what I wanted was a reaction. So instead of attempting to calm my suspicions or defend your actions you attack me for using an abbreviation. That is a scummy reaction in my book. It looks like you are trying to intimidate me to get me to back off.

[IH]

Jeez. You are, if nothing else, thorough.

Seol wrote:
Please provide links to games where you used this "strategy" on other forums.

I'm so hesitant to do this because I'm a nutjob there. Okay fine, here too. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showf ... page=&vc=1
Reading through day1 should be enough to get to know my general style. No, I don't implement this specific "strategy" but I implement the same general concepts. Villager tells, an excel spreadsheet of doom, crazy theories. The background of the forum which I come from is a lot more casual from this, one-day-day/nights, everyone pretty much knows each other, etc. If it's any consolation, I seriously have a very good townie/mafia list throughout.

Seol wrote:
Are you saying that the comment was intended to be read as inflammatory and unjustified? Did you have any reasons to pick myself and GC? If so, what were they?

1)

If I say that somebody has a townie tell (or, townie feeling, townie-ish, whatever), I am 100% serious. In my mind, it is justified...I mostly call them townie tells because some of them are the psychological quirks which townies tend to do

2)

(you would call this WIFOM, I use WIFOM a lot, don't diss WIFOM).

3)

Some of them are more solid evidence such as timing of responses and etc.

Okay, I'll reveal the reasons why I picked you and GC.

4)

Initially, Seol, I picked you because you made a super-awesome accurate post. It's not just length either, it's...style, Type of response. You will no doubt try to pull off the same type of post as a wolf now that I know you slightly better and have seen more of your posting style, but I still believe you to be the #1 villager here as of RIGHT NOW. What really rang the townie alarm, however, was:

Seol wrote:
Luckay, I've got a newsflash for you. You're not Pooky.

Are you playing to win, or to dick around?

5)

A mafia just can't possibly make THIS post 30 minutes after my crazy proposal of masonry. It's near impossible. This is my townie tell on you, Seol. As I said, I'm 95% sure you're a townie after that little bit.

I now "TRUST" and "FOLLOW" what you say exactly - because you've demosntrated the almighty townie tell. Could I have gotten the tell and had it strengthen even more now by first offering "masonry" and then by stating "95% townie" and such? No way! And you've followed that up with:

Seol wrote:

LuckayLuck wrote:

Seol wrote:
Are you playing to win?

Yes, I'm playing to win.
And I believe I've nailed you down as a townie. If you are indeed a townie, as I'm 95% sure of now, you should recognize that this is valuable information that can only be good.

Except there's no information! Blind trust is dangerous, informed trust is fine but I don't see any evidence of that. I don't want you to trust anyone without reason, including myself.Yes, I'm playing to win.
And I believe I've nailed you down as a townie. If you are indeed a townie, as I'm 95% sure of now, you should recognize that this is valuable information that can only be good.

just 20 minutes after my retort. Seol, you're like 99% villager. And in my world, if I don't say 100%, it means I'm not using BLIND TRUST. I have turned around and lynched / led lynches for those who I have trusted as near-masons in other games. I have turned around and mason-ed with those who I have led lynches for. My style is very flexible, it provides the type of tells that I can see as useful whereas others might not, most of these tells if I presented them would get smacked down with the WIFOM argument...but you know what?

2)

WIFOM is legit evidence townies / mafia.

6

Seol, think of how important the input of a confirmed villager (via seer, for example) is. Townies can finally take the villager's word as gospel and argue directly with him about it with no nagging feeling in their mind "hmm...but...but...maybe he's mafia." Even those one sees as mostly townie...it can never come close to seeing someone as a confirmed townie or as a mason. I manage to do that, I frame it in my mind that someone I have a townie tell on IS a confirmed townie or a mason and treat them as such. A silly crazy exercise? No, it really helps me see their true intentions, gets you thinking on their level unlike that of just reading what they have to say. Sort of hard to explain.

7)

The best thing is, if my mason seems strange at all, and this is something that can only really be seen from really treating your target as a mason and then sensing that slight disturbance...you have the best mafia tell of all time. Because your mason is supposed to be the best villager in the game.

8)

Just...you'll have to recognize that I have a slightly different playstyle. Am I undermining the town? No, I help the town. Sometimes, I feel like a defense attorney for those about to get lynched. More often than not, and it's gotten a lot better recently, I've managed to stop townies from getting lynched / townies did get lynched but I did call it correctly and defended them. Am I ACTIVELY trying to generate reactions from saying "Controversial Target X is a townie"? This is secondary, really...as I've suggested, if this entire concept seems like pure crazy-talk, interpret my actions thus far as:

"I feel that Seol and Green Crayons are leaning townie."

Oh, I missed the reasons for why GC is townie. GC is townie because we had an argument over punctuation. We worked it out. Most importantly, however, GC has sifted one by one across all players who post something of worth. Votes all over the place. In some cases, this is a wolf tell, but in this particular context / voting style it is a townie tell.


Seol, someday...someday, we'll be masons.

I'll respond to the numbers I put in and bolded. I know I have two number twos they're there for a reason.

1)It just shows how little you've played on this site. On smaller sites you can do this, because you generally

know

the players. Here, posting style changes all the time, so there is no such thing as townie tells. To many people. To many styles.

2)WIFOM is generally not a good thing to use. It means you are using some circular logic that can't be proved or disproved. "I think someone might be trying to trick us, or maybe they're doing that so we'll think it's a trick and it's really not, or maybe the 1st one is right."
It doesn't help us at all, because if someone shoots it down, you would come back with your first response.

3)I would actually say it's harder get a "town" feel from someone with their timing than scum. Scum look for timing. Most town just... post I believe(More so than scum anyway)

4)One post makes him confirmed in your book? No way. This is NOT Seoul's first game, so what you said "You will obviously post this way as wolf" would not be correct. He's probably already BEEN scum before, and just never changes his posting style.
I haven't personally been in a game with him before this, so I am only speculating.

5)Actually they can, and it would probably be pretty smart. You've got to understand that these people playing have alot of experience (I'm in a few, and have only finished two myself) but some of these people.... well they'd probably tell you if you ask them outside of this thread.

6)Invalid. No one is a confirmed townie unless dead, you are scum, or you have an investigation. Since we started in a day phase, the latter is impossible right now. I really think there is no such thing as "open masons" as the only advantage of being a mason is talking out of the thread and knowing that the other is innocent. Which brings me to this point.

What would a townie have to gain being an open mason with you? Having someone off of their LoS. That's not that much for them, but if you're scum, that's phenomenal for you.

7)I would just be repeating my last point. Also, wouldn't it just be easier for you to treat them as open masons without telling them? Then they wouldn't watch their posts as much....

I need to think over your style of play more before I come to a conclusion if this is really something you're trying to accomplish, or if there's something more sinister.

[IH]

Double post edit-That smiler face is a number eight that I missed.

8.It seems more like you are.... I don't know. Perhaps it seems like you are

withholding

information from us. That doesn't help the town at all.

[Echo419]

Whoa... content!
Seol and GC, I think appear to me to be a couple townies drawn into a fight. The original argument was a bit flimsy, but now everyone's tearing into each other, over posts that were part of that argument. It just builds on itself, and yet it isn't that productive IMO.
LL, what the heck? You are probably the most suspicious one here. What's with the post time stuff? The open masonry stuff? And your townie tells appear to be based on the timing as well. That seems really irrelevant IMO.

Unvote, Vote: LuckayLuck

[Dodgy]

Wolf, I am not trying to intimidate you or anyone else and if I have given you that impression, I apalogise.
I sometimes come accross as harsh but its never meant that way.
To answer your second question,

“Would you have Finger Of Suspicioned Rathyr had he not been voting you?”

Honestly? no, I wouldn't have. Because it was on me, obviously I noted it and thought it a little odd, hence the

FOS

and not a vote.
Anyway, didn't mean to make you feel stupid, thats never my intention or game plan toward anyone.

[Dodgy]

Away for 48 hours peeps, will catch up again then x

[Green Crayons]

A mafia just can't possibly make THIS post 30 minutes after my crazy proposal of masonry. It's near impossible.

I have no idea how in the world this makes sense, and have subsequently disregarded Luck's unintelligible tactics as nothing more than an extremely poor playing style. To each their own, but unless if Luck starts providing more provocative arguments than those similiar to the above quotation, his ideas will soon take a backseat to... everyone.

Granted, I don't know if I can support the notion that a poor play style is reason enough to vote someone. That's simply how he approaches the game, and to vote someone based off of that seems to be incredibly weak in the reasoning department, in my opinion.

[LuckayLuck]

GC: Follow this logic train


1. I state that I feel like Seol is moderately village.
2. Seol smacks me down. YEAH, smack me down baby.
3. I offer to be Seol's mason!
4.

Luckay, I've got a newsflash for you. You're not Pooky.

Are you playing to win, or to dick around?

5. I restate that I just found #4 incredibly townie-ish.
6. Seol smacks me down again! "Hey, you can't trust me, fool! You're talking complete crap / you're mafia / you've glared into my soul and have seen the inner townie"


Given my knowledge that I'm a townie, I know nearly for certain given Seol's particular style of answering (yes, I understand that a mafia can do the above 6 steps...but the wording, baby, the wording! Timing, baby, the timing!) that Seol is a townie.

[IH]

LL may I make a suggestion? If you truly are town, don't tell us if you find someone you find spectaculary town or say you trust them 100%. All it's currently leading to is arguments between only two or three people.

You don't have to take my advice, but I will no longer buck what you say you're doing, as you said it in a weird way. By trusting them, you say you're keeping a closer eye on them I suppose (though I say you can't view it objectively, but meh.)

I even had something typed up to argue against your last post. I then realized that this is going NOWHERE. Green Crayons is correct. This is an argument building off complete bullshit.

I would almost go as far to say that you could be using a distraction tactic. This has dominated discussion, but not really produced much information, other than you have a (flawed IMO) different playstyle. If you are both town, you are only helping the scum by drawing attention to yourselves.

I moreso agree with GC that a difference of playstyle is not enough to vote someone. Granted it's a strange one, but I haven't seen any inconsistencies from him and anything substantial gained, other than he is putting trust into someone that can change.

unvote, Vote Echo419

It looks like you were trying to capitalize on something not exactly wrong, as I see more of what he's saying in his last post (that I actually responded to and had time to think it over)

[Echo419]

What the heck? I seriously had a post up right after Dodgy's leaving post. Where'd it go? I'll try to recreate it but of course it looks now like I'm posting because I was voted.
I really don't like the way LL is acting. The timing thing? Open masonry? 99% sure of Seol? His "playstyle" excuse is getting annoying- it's so easy to claim an odd playstyle in order to get away with more radical posts, while having an all-purpose excuse.

Unvote, Vote: LuckayLuck

[/b]

[Green Crayons]

Echo - Check post 105.

[Echo419]

Now I look like a noob... but I swear I posted after Dodgy left...

[chaotic_diablo]

Vote Count

IH(3): yellowbounder, LuckayLuck, bird111
Rathyr(1): Green Crayons
Dodgy(2): wolfsbane, Rathyr
LuckayLuck(3): Ripley, Seol, Echo419
Echo419(1): IH

Not Voting: jl2704, Dodgy

7 to lynch

Here's the overdue votecount. I will be prodding people now with a large pointy stick-like object.

[IH]

CD, to help you, I believe out of those people, Wolfsbane, Rathyr, yellowbounder, bird 111, and jl2704 would be the people to use that pointy stick on. = D

[Rathyr]

Hi, checking in.

I'm glad the site is back up again.

[IH]

(Scratch's Rathyr, Bird and Wolfsbane from that list because he's a dumbass, and then adds Ripley FTL)

pheh, still nothing new to comment on. How sad. May do a little of a reread later tonight.

[chaotic_diablo]

yellowbounder has asked for a replacement.

[Ripley]

I'm back, though after today I'm unlikely to be able to post again for a few days.

I just tried rereading the thread and it was

very

hard work. There are a few people in this game who will argue even the smallest point in minute detail, and it only takes a few. An unusually high proportion of posts are addressed to a single other player. There have been detailed debates going on between Seol/Green Crayons, IH/Green Crayons, Seol/LuckayLuck, LuckayLuck/Green Crayons. And an entirely separate one between Wolfsbane/Dodgy that has dragged on and on and on.

I'm aware that I'm free to chip into any of these arguments but I feel entirely detached from them all. Not a single thing that any of you has said in these posts has made me think the poster or the postee more or less scummy, only that you are people who really,

really

want to be sure you are correctly understood, however many pages of posts it may take to achieve that.

Consider Seol. Now, Seol is a person I would very much like to have on my side in a court of law, though I might worry that I might not live to enjoy my acquittal, so long would the proceedings take. He has a fine line in putdowns and a relentless grasp of detail. It would be incredibly hard to defeat him in an argument. I profoundly hope that Seol is protown in this game. But I have absolutely no

opinion

on the matter.

The earliest major skirmish was between Green Crayons and LuckayLuck, and it seemed even those involved (GC, at any rate) had detected that the argument was getting way out of proportion and were trying to limit it:

If you respond to anything above the line, I'm going to let it die with what you say, as there's no point in continuing arguing over confusion caused by punctuation.

But immediately after this comes Seol with post 56 which I think really kicked off the descent into microanalysis. I have seen people make this kind of PBPA post before, and I fully believe that Seol makes a habit of it in all his games, but on page 3? Before some players had even got started? Inevitably the effect was to focus on the players who had posted the most, and Seol himself notes this:

In summation, both GC and LL look scummy to a degree, and they're the two who have posted the most.

... and these two, already shown to be more prolific by disposition than the average, naturally respond in great detail, in what I'll call PBPRs (Point by Point Rebuttal? Paragraph by Paragraph Response?), creating another sea of words to be picked apart, and the whole ghastly cycle starts to repeat.

I do query the usefulness of Seol's post 56 at such an early stage in a game which appeared to be evolving naturally at a reasonable pace (ie it did not require unusual measures to kick it into life). One effect has been to divide the game pretty much into two groups, those who are involved and those who aren't. I wouldn't

choose

to be uninvolved in a game. It just seems to have happened.

One reason Seol might do this is that lengthy analysis often has the effect of impressing people with the player's protown credentials. It is simply harder to believe that a scum player would take so much time to do an analysis. So by getting one in at a very early stage Seol could plant the seed of his probable goodness in all our minds. In fact I noticed on my reread that Dodgy says almost exactly this:

More often than not, I have found that this type of post is there to sway the town that they are on the towns side, as subconsciously, when you read such a post, you feel it helpful, therefor catorgarising that player as town (Seol).

... though he later retracts his suspicion on being assured that Seol always posts like this. Seol, in the absence of any search facilities can I ask you to name other games where you've made posts like this

at such an early stage

?

I can't promise to give future PBPRs, that are addressed to other players and on issues I don't think interesting or relevant, the kind of close scrutiny I would normally give to every post in a game. (And I suspect I may not be the only one.)

LuckayLuck I'm finding quite entertaining at least. Who could fail to be moved by the last line of Post 101...

Seol, someday...someday, we'll be masons.

... for all the world as if he's about to burst into song, maybe in a minor work by Andrew Lloyd Webber, though it can only be a matter of time before Seol arrives to crush his dreams brutally, yet again.

[Rathyr]

I admit that these epic posts have dulled my enthusiasm for this game somewhat.

I don't really know what to make of it all.

[Dodgy]

I have to agree with you on that one Rath, it all seems to have gotten very deep very quickly.
I feel like I need to set aside a day or two to read it all and catch up properly lol.

[Echo419]

I dunno about everyone esle, but I tend to ignore those epic point-by-point battles- the intricacies are insignificant to all but those directly involved, and it's a ton to read. 9/10, it's two townies convinced the other is scum, maybe subtley egged on by others, and not neccessarily scum either- there are people who can read and analyze these kinds of arguments. I know I can't, and it appears others dislike it as well.

[IH]

I'm a big supporter of PBP's myself. It helps me organize my thoughts, and I can make connections better, but they are only useful once in a while. For these gigantic posts, I'll delve into them and skim thouroughly I guess you'd say, only commenting on things.

My stand on point by points are, unless it's a slow day, you should only need one once per day to sum up things from the day before.

[LuckayLuck]

Seol, someday...someday, we'll be masons.

... for all the world as if he's about to burst into song, maybe in a minor work by Andrew Lloyd Webber, though it can only be a matter of time before Seol arrives to crush his dreams brutally, yet again.

Ripley, you made a really good post. I am, in fact, waiting for Seol to rebuttal before I launch into an incredible insightful post which may or may not blow all of your minds.