/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Faraday]

Day 1, Votecount 7

Nachomamma8 (1) - N
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Tammy
penguin_alien (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
Deasvail (2) - Konowa, Llamarble
Shadoweh (1) - WickedestJr

Llamarble (7) - Benmage, Empire, Deasvail, CrashTextDummie, Vi, penguin_alien, Tierce

Johhog (1) - Nachomamma8
Empire (1) - Shadoweh

Not voting (1) :

Johhog

• With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 5th of March at 00:38am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-04 20:30:28)

#SWAG

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You're not even going to try, then? Very boring.

Vote: Llamarble

[Llamarble]

I misread wrongly as strongly.
If you're asking why I'm not massposting / commanding people to GTFO, the answer is that I've been trying to make fewer, cleaner posts (see my 2 most recent games which I played as Norlkaz).
Massposting takes too much time, isn't always helpful, and it's up to everyone else to read me right so I'm just going to proceed with solving.

Penguin, did you realize I was Norlkaz (due to my mispost in this game) before you voted for me?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

"strongly" would've made for a weird question.

Are you saying that being obvtown wasn't always helpful? Why were you logged on [godawfulname] anyway?

[Llamarble]

I was logged on Norlkaz looking at DeadQTs and stuff.

I was obvtown in nomination mafia with several hundred posts and had led both scumlynches but got mislynched anyway.
Bedtime stories I also got mislynched D3 despite having caused a scumlynch D2.
Revolution Mafia I didn't get mislynched, but things generally went badly.
When I looked back at my winning streak games I found that in a lot of my best performances I was obvtown with fewer, better posts.
In the just finished mini 1412 I led town to victory with only 61 posts.
Unfortunately this game is hard enough to solve that I haven't gotten to go "stomp stomp stomp let's lynch thwomp."
But that time will come. Sooner if I am less interrupted by questions.

[Llamarble]

Erm, I may have only led one of the Nomination mafia scumlynches and merely participated in the other.
I'm not going to go back and look.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

When I looked back at my winning streak games I found that in a lot of my best performances I was obvtown with fewer, better posts.

I'd suspect it'd be simply an issue playing a good solid game when there's little expected of you. You either have to run away from having a reputation or learn to deal with it.

Unfortunately this game is hard enough to solve that I haven't gotten to go "stomp stomp stomp let's lynch thwomp."
But that time will come. Sooner if I am less interrupted by questions.

My soul is overflowing with bravado but this seems a bit much even for me. This is not a game you can just thwomp and relevant questions when at L-1 are not interruptions.

[Tierce]

...Llama, you sign up for /in-vitational, get a playerlist like this, and then imply that you are not going to do your best because even your best gets you mislynched? What the hell? If you're Town, stop being lazy already. You're hardly getting "interrupted", back and forth is part of how mafia works, and if you think that it is somehow not relevant, you have had just as much time as everyone else to figure the game out and participate in whatever way you think is actually relevant. This Bravado Meets Whinging does not become you.

[Llamarble]

I am doing my best. I am trying to improve as a player by making fewer, better posts.
I have spent a lot of the past couple hours on mafia and basically none of it on reading the game, so I do feel interrupted.

We were stomp-thwomping the scummies winvitational until the tracker-innocent-of-sadness and the opting-out-of-unkillable-masonhood.
If that game can be stompthwomped any game can be stompthwomped.

I have no problem with :relevant: questions but it does bug me when people repeatedly vote me for or ask me about things they could have figured out by reading my posts.
As for being at L-1, yes that annoys me. I would appreciate some time to complete my reading process, which as you very well know takes a while.

[Tierce]

UNVOTE: Llamarble

Do go on.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We were stomp-thwomping the scummies winvitational until the tracker-innocent-of-sadness and the opting-out-of-unkillable-masonhood.
If that game can be stompthwomped any game can be stompthwomped.

That only took, what, 100 pages?

Unvote, vote: penguin

[Vi]

Vi,

what's your angle here?

Acute. And obtuse. Ideally right as well.

UNVOTE: Llamarble

Do go on.

Get back on.

[Tierce]

CES decided to be boring. We can't have that. (Fiiiine.)

VOTE: Llamarble (#YODO-2)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

*shrug*

There's something there.

[CrashTextDummie]

I am bothered by Empire's post 156, which looks to me like an entirely self-serving exercise in looking sincere and introspective. The post was prompted by Shadoweh placing a heavy burden of proficiency on him, which is bothersome in its own right, much more so on page 6 of a high-profile game. The whole exchange rubs me the wrong way from both players.

-------------

Llamarble's reaction to being wagoned has been weak and overly self-conscious. Keeping my vote there until he either delivers the goods or claims (or dies).

[Wickedestjr]

*avoids prod*

I'm still incredibly busy- this week has been terrible. However, I'm only a page or two behind and I should have plenty of time on my hands tomorrow night. Expect a post then.

[Llamarble]

This will do for now; I've loaded the game into my mind and found a few scums.
I'll try to do another pass and pick up the last few I was too tired to read sometime soonish.
Empire, Deasvail, CrashTextDummie, Vi, penguin_alien is probably the lynchpool for today.
I'd be surprised by fewer than 2 scums in that list.

Town:
Llamarble

townish:
Benmage -
I wish Winvitational didn't get eaten because I wanted to compare that Benmage to this one. Whiteflag Benmage town isn't uberdifferent from Benmage here.
Benmage is trying to figure the game out (his questioning, his reevaluation, and his initiative as starter of my wagon point to this). He also pattern matches better as town than as scum.

CES -
He is mostly doing unobjectionable CESy things, and I understand his vote for me so he doesn't get the #scumzonmywagon label which I'm sure I shall be giving out soon.

Konowa -
He is generally decisive and game figureouty, though there isn't much material yet..
I still like 47.

Tierce -
L-1 unvote is always worth some respect, even if it came back.
Attitude question is solid too.

Verdict inconclusive:
Shadoweh / Tammy / Vi / Wjester -
Tabled because my mind doesn't feel clear.
Worth mentioning Wjester logged in while I was at L-1, I got an unvote, and Wjester didn't end up posting.

CTD -
Post 49 remains a scum pattern match for me; in addition to the link making it feel like a construction instead of a collection of thoughts, here's an attack on X but let's vote Y tends to gnaw at me.
"Because it's the most interesting thing going on" is not a scumpinging reason for joining my wagon though. My wagon IS the most interesting so far.
His most recent post is meh.

N -
Insufficient data, but he hasn't scummed things up yet.

Empire -
Fakeable posting (doesn't have to lie about the past and therefore talks about it a lot). Also #scumzonmywagon.
But it all could come from town too. Maybe.

Johhog -
He is probably not scum with DV on account of 73.
Reluctance to unvote Penguin might be a result of Penguin-scum; scum usually want to have a reason before moving off of a buddy.
And when he does unvote Penguin, Penguin has just made a very scummy post.
I can see a pretty clear town line of thought for Johhog for both his 'whoah' and his Penguin vote / unvote though, so he definitely doesn't get to be in the scum pile.

Scum:
Nacho -
Nacho posts less as scum. He has 2 posts. They're both fakeable.
I do think scum have less tendency to antagonize but scum-nacho-shoes feel pretty good when I put them on.

Penguin -
155 is very "I should have some thoughts; here be some thoughts."
Scum pattern match + #scumzonmywagon
@Penguin, did you notice that I was Norlkaz before voting for me?
VOTE: Penguin

DV -
Getting up to shenanigans to start the game is indeed his meta.
His scummeta is to be hesitatey / non-loose; he matches both those scumpatterns.
His vote for me is lukewarmsheepy -> #scumzonmywagon
He also has deployed the good ol' scumlogicks of I expect scum / town to behave like such and such in 89, to me in 130, and in 146 (which links him nicely to penguinscum).
Obviously town use this form of reasoning too, but I believe it's particularly common from scum and will give the first principles explanation if I have to.

[Benmage]

What things?

The other things Empire said.

Which where what... obviously I'm asking you to cut and paste the segments you liked... not this abstract non-sense.

So please... restate in your own words... or direct quote. TY.

Llamarble wagon seems to be the most interesting thing going on.
unvote, vote: Llamarble

Are you okay with him being lynched? If yes, what about without claiming?

I don't know, I think that your Penguin vote is weird considering there's someone else who you actually think is scum. (I don't really imagine you having a super strong read from that one post, but I could be wrong I guess)

But pressure votes are always so good!!

Especially when you explain that they're simply there for pressure... (internetsarcasmforthosewhocan'tseeit)

Oh And Llamarable what was this on again:?

Benmage is commenting on relevant things.

What?

Somebody had asked what pro-town behaviors in this game I was referring to when I recalled your usefulness being negatively correlated with your being town.

Yes.. and round and round we go. I am asking you what

RELEVANT

things were you referring to. Essentially direct quote my statements that you found 'relevant'.

And for Johogs point. Your statement it being inferior, is simply subjective and doesn't make my point any less valid.

-The point with shadow... what's the logic behind it??? Setting the bar low.. you can't connect that dot on your own?

My interpretation of Johhog's point is grounded in first principles; I'm not sure yours is even logically viable.
If Johhog doesn't want to 'be the only one pushing a foolish train' then wouldn't that be the opposite of a reason for him to voice his stark disagreement?
I don't see why scum feel the need to set the bar low for themselves; I certainly don't suffer from this as scum.
I find it a towntell because in my experience scum tend to focus on their fake scumhunting / arguing and neglect secondary actions like introspection (of which self deprecation is a form).

-Johhog asks XXX if he sees the samething.. XXX goes YEAH! voting said person or attacking or something along those lines.
--Or XXX goes, nope don't see it... and Johhog goes,

right right I was probably seeing something not there.

Very very easy scum move, baffled you don't see it. But then again he's your partner isn't he.

Nor would I set the bar low for myself. Nor would I ever imagine tactically lurking a viable strategy. Yet it is done all to frequently. So simply comparing someones play to your own is a horrrrrrible manner to scumhunt. Again baffled at your rationale here.......Setting low standard for yourself... Cheah easy scum move. Scum calling themselves shitty scumhunters is pretty much a 1-0-1 move.

Unvote, Vote: Johhog

ben let's go here

Keep it warm, this wagons very legit.

I think I did a good job imitating my townplay at the beginning of TM12.
You can wat all you like, but I am smart and look at things others don't consider. Simple != unimportant.
You need to read more closely; the relevance of Benmage commenting on relevant things was already available in my posts.

I did read your posts closely. If I'm understanding it right, you're saying that Benmage tends to play a more pro-town game as scum (which is actually not a bad summary of what I think re: his meta -- I remember reading somewhere that Benmage hates the lurking scum strategy so he's always intense and on top of the game when he's scum; conversely, the less aggressive/more laid back/lazier he appears to be, the more likely he is to be town). I guess I just want you to be more specific? How exactly is Benmage appearing more pro-town to you in a way that suggests he's scum? What "relevant things" is he commenting on? And what do you think about the substance of the back-and-forth CTD and I had?

^I agree to the request Llamarable's statement is absurd. I'm not sure what experience he's taking.. if only WF.. well that wasn't that solid a game of mine. Not sure what scum game either... Scummieswinvintational? Yes my scum game is second to none.
---But anyways I'll link recent town sweeps if I must, where I steamroll the scum. Or how about being NK'd over 2 cop confirmed townies heading into 4 person Mylo. Cheah. My town games top tier if not #1 too.

Granted if I suck/have a bad game.. well I'm humanish.

@Empire.

Careful with that logic. Yes scum lurking and not caring is so disrespectful to the game an impossible to play against that I abhor it, would never do it. That said things come up from time to time.. RL, etc etc. My main point is in every game there's people who you question why they even bothered signing up because they had zero contribution.... I would never do that as scum. As town (unfortunately) I did once proddodge for about 2 weeks... so yes if that happens I am confirmed town... but I'm not proud of that and would avoid it at all costs.
---Also this game is wayyyy to early to be thinking I'm committed/notcommitted etc etc.

(pedite working on this post but I see llamarble just posted so here ya go for this segment)

[Benmage]

townish:
Benmage -
I wish Winvitational didn't get eaten because I wanted to compare that Benmage to this one. Whiteflag Benmage town isn't uberdifferent from Benmage here.
Benmage is trying to figure the game out (his questioning, his reevaluation, and his initiative as starter of my wagon point to this). He also pattern matches better as town than as scum.

Tierce should have winvintational... I imagine mod would allow you to acquire via PM.... or first have tierce PM to Mod, then have Mod fwd or something like that.

If I recall WF correctly, I don't think it was one of my better town games... I can link you some more recent ones if you'd like. I remember being your counterwagon in WF... because my behavior was lurkerish (correct?) That was when I was overcommitted to games + RL was boning me... not over-committing any more.

[Benmage]

You're both missing the point. I don't want lurking to be rewarding. I don't think you should be able to deflect suspicion simply by not answering. Now penguin_alien has posted, and as I have a stronger scum read I'm happy with changing my vote.

Way to be effective (i.e. you weren't, and your vote did nothing. and 99.9% of pressure voters do nothing, because 99.8% of people say their pressure votes are for pressure and therefore nullify the vote itself because the person already knows what they must do to change the vote....

post

)

You pretty much answered your own question. Benmage is doing scumhunty things / being useful.
This is by no means sufficient grounds to throw him off a cliff, but it makes me nervous about him.

Your meta pool must be very narrow.

We were stomp-thwomping the scummies winvitational until the tracker-innocent-of-sadness and the opting-out-of-unkillable-masonhood.
If that game can be stompthwomped any game can be stompthwomped.

In scummies winvintationals defense, that was like totally like the best scummer ever! Like I would like totally date him IRL.

I have no problem with :relevant: questions but it does bug me when people repeatedly vote me for or ask me about things they could have figured out by reading my posts.

Its equally annoying when I find myself having to decipher several posts strains of thought for which someone claims "oh I've given my reasoning"... especially when I often read it/understand it different;y then the person describing it, or its not there altogether... or the motherfucking could've given a simple explanation as they know their own thoughts 100X better then me trying to understand them and a simple quote, or rephrase would save everyone a drawn out back n forth headache/rant

Vi,

what's your angle here?

Acute. And obtuse. Ideally right as well.

None of this play is warm fuzzy town Vi.

I'd be more then happy to lynch you if this is what we got. But alas your reputation precedes you, and this awe-inspired people won't have the heart to see you swing. Not yet at least.

****

(Write this down... When Vi is alive D4, question it...and don't believe the

I was playing off because Im this awesome PR!

)

[Tierce]

Scummies WINvitational. I sent this to everyone involved at the time, you should have a copy unless you deleted the file/my PM, Llama.

[Tierce]

None of this play is warm fuzzy town Vi.

I'd be more then happy to lynch you if this is what we got. But alas your reputation precedes you, and this awe-inspired people won't have the heart to see you swing. Not yet at least.

****(Write this down... When Vi is alive D4, question it...and don't believe the I was playing off because Im this awesome PR!)

1) Incorrect. Warm fuzzy Town Vi has this terrible habit of being apparently useless in the first steps of a game. Ask for reads if you actually want something done. Don't be surprised if the answer is more floof.

2) Vi wouldn't play off due to being a PR. The closest I've seen Vi

not

being obvTown on purpose was when we were a Mason hydra in Dresdenafia, because we didn't need to. Vi doesn't believe in hiding PRs and would probably be fine with a D1 massclaim.

So while I agree with your logic that good players being alive in later Days is suspicious by default, your reasoning is all faulty. ScumVi would need far better excuses than that in this game, especially if Empire is Town. What is more, this is a very good roster and I'll be quite entertained by that NK/lynch list either way.

[N]

I don't understand the penguin wagon and I refuse to respond to it.

By the way, what's usual scum-numbers for a 16 player game?

[Llamarble]

4 scum

Thanks; I don't think I deleted your PM but I didn't think to look for it.

It seems, Benmage, that we disagree on some things. That is ok.
Why is setting the bar low something scum would do more than town?
I get what you are accusing Johhog of now; I think the term 'testing the waters' describes it a little better and that is something scum seem to do.
What I was interested in was the fact that Johhog was :surprised: by disagreement with his idea.

As for your relevant comments, any post where you called somebody scum, gave a reason for somebody being scum or asked a question aimed at getting alignment information counts.
I'd be quoting the majority of your ISO . Keep up the good work.

[Empire]

Just got back from class and I'm exhausted. I want to look into Llamarble's and Benmage's meta a lot more closely before I churn out my big reads wall. Listing the games here for my own purposes, if anyone has any others, feel free to link them.

Llamarble:

TOWN: Revolution Mafia, Abarat, Mini 1412 (as Norlkaz)
SCUM: TM 2012 White Flag, Outwitted

Benmage:

TOWN: Happy Tree Friends, Mini 1394, A Dance With Dragons
SCUM: Scummies Winvitational, Heroes of Comedy