Mini 1420: The Beginning Of The End (Game Over)

[JasonWazza]

VOTE COUNT 2.9

[3] Ztife: Jennifer, DeathRowKitty, Goodmorning,
[1] Slandaar: Kwll,
[1] q21: Psyche,
[1] KthxBye: Ztife,
[1] DeathRowKitty: Slandaar,
[1] Psyche: Nachomamma8,
[1] Goodmorning: q21,

Not Voting: Kthxbye,

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2013-02-24 23:57:13)

V/LA: Jennifer till 19th of February
q21 till 16th of February

[Slandaar]

Doc claim was pretty stupid imho, but I'm pretty sure Slandaar is doc.

Yes very stupid, so I lie and claim VT get lynched? or I lie and claim cop get cc? Quite the genius we have here.

Ztife is town.

anyways...

VOTE: GM

Just lynch her shes scum;

DRK is probably one of my better Townreads ATM and Slandaar's argument on the massclaim is indeed bullshit (as I mentioned before).

What shall I do now? What shall I do?
I shall jump all over this wagon.

Vote: Slandaar

Explain why Nacho is Town without using his purely theory points.

Shes voting me for theory (she knows its theory as seen in post to nacho ie if hes arguing theory I must be also or the argument is not about theory) or shes voting me because I think her townread is scum? Doesn't really matter, her other vote is Ztife which is for?

Exactly.

Lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

oooooh

Vote: goodmorning

i was gonna question her more, but nah

[Nachomamma8]

psyche is still scum though!

[goodmorning]

Explain why Nacho is Town without using his purely theory points.

and not drk?

I already have a Townread on DRK. I don't on you.

[goodmorning]

WHOA didn't see any of the other stuff.

@Slandaar: My vote is on Ztife because he's my top scumread. He's my top scumread because he has not contributed anything.
He's been active lurking, voting for no reason, and has only recently begun posting what could pass for substance.

Shitty substance.

In 502 he asks people why they vote him, then fails to pursue those answers.
In 646 he accuses me of sheeping, avoids Slandaar's question, and accuses everyone else of sheeping and bussing.
In 649 he attempts to discount Jenn's case by calling it outdated while failing to realize he'd posted only three times since it was made (and that the case itself was not particularly affected by flips).

If you want to count 431 as well, he asserts that Kthx's hammer was scummy but fails to pursue that too.

NONE OF THIS MAKES ME FEEL CONFIDENT IN HIS SLOT.

[goodmorning]

ALSO @ Slandaar:
I voted you for proposing and pushing a massclaim. I did not vote you because of or for your theory arguments, I voted you because of your proposal and push.

Nacho, on the other hand, was solely theory there.

[Psyche]

ALSO @ Slandaar:
I voted you for proposing and pushing a massclaim. I did not vote you because of or for your theory arguments, I voted you because of your proposal and push.

Okay.

But this proposal and push. A extensive justification was prepared and posted defending it (theory arguments).

If you do not object to that justification for reasons related to scumminess (i.e., disingenuous, fake as opposed to just bad, bullshit)...then objecting to the behaviors justified just doesn't make any sense.

Your defense

isn't making any sense.

[Ztife]

ALSO @ Slandaar:
I voted you for proposing and pushing a massclaim. I did not vote you because of or for your theory arguments, I voted you because of your proposal and push.

Nacho, on the other hand, was solely theory there.

There was nothing to persue because everyone simply ignores it.
So what do YOU think of the hammer then?

So your sole reason for voting for me is because im lurking, thats it right?

[Psyche]

I thought it was more like

"Ztife's pattern of saying things and never following up on them suggests that he doesn't really care much about the things he's talking about as much as he does about talking about the things he's talkiing about."

Oh, wait. That is lurking.

[goodmorning]

@Psyche - I find the proposal itself to be a scummy one. There is no need to look at a justification for a behavior to know that said behavior sets off alarm bells.
Also, that's not how I'd define lurking. I'd call not saying things/saying things that are irrelevant lurking. Ztife's behaviour is neither.

@Ztife - I think the hammer is Null. I could easily see it coming from either alignment.
And no, I think the reason/s for voting you is/are because you've "been active lurking, voting for no reason, and... only recently begun posting what could pass for substance." And because your "substance" is weak.

[Ztife]

@goodmorning

Null because it can be from either alignment? How relevant would it be to hammer without a reason for finding the lunched scummy be helpful to town? With another week to deadline there was rush to hammer, and there were weak votes on the wagon which should garner more attention first.

Please explain. And also comment on how you find kthnx's play so far, and who do you think is possibly scum on the elleran wagon. Or none.

[Ztife]

Finding the lynched*
There was no rush to hammer*

Damn auto-correct and typing on the phone

[goodmorning]

kthx's play has been completely shit, but not necessarily scummy. The hammer was shit, but not necessarily scummy.
I find him Null, but I could be convinced to vote him on policy as he's not a Townread.

VCA is kind of annoying. If I thought one person on the wagon was Scum, it'd be Nacho. I don't necessarily have a case on him, he just doesn't strike me as playing very Town so far.
Next choice would possibly be q21, but I keep going back and forth on him so eh.
Kthx is sort of an outside chance. I'd bet more on the others though.
VCA is really annoying.

[Slandaar]

OK so Kthx hammers and that is null

How then is proposing massclaim not null?

Sure I could be scum with a devious plan, but then so could kthx with his hammer.

What exactly is the difference?

[Slandaar]

Also assuming I am right on Ztife your voting record is atrocious which counts against you, jump on elleran at opportune time, jump on me at opportune time and Ztife is easiest vote around.

[goodmorning]

Proposing massclaim is not null at this time because there is a clear deficit to Town in it.

I had no real scumreads D1, Elleran looked inconsistent, so hey, sheep the wagon.
The vote on you was hardly opportune, unless you define opportune as "someone does something you find scummy, so you vote them".
I've had suspicions of Ztife, I've made my case. I don't know why you assume he is Town, but assumptions shouldn't factor into it.

@q21 - Wow, good job. You answered one of my questions. Could you actually answer the other two, or are they a bit too difficult to justify?

[q21]

Slandaar's main adversaries on the masslcaim issue are town. Both taking a townie stance, neither doing so in an scummy or opportunistic manner.

What would a "scummy or opportunistic manner" be?

Went back and tried to put my finger on this better. I think the main point is that you didn't try to make him look scummy for anything else, didn't dig back into his previously very protown play. The confrontation was about massclaim and didn't get pushed much passed that. DRK did flaunt with it a little, but only a little and I have a strong town read on him anyway.

[Slandaar]

Proposing massclaim is not null at this time because there is a clear deficit to Town in it.

There is a clear deficit to town in quickhammering.

What differentiates the two?

[DeathRowKitty]

Tonight I will be
The meteorite that crashes
Down into this thread.


...don't worry about the wording I used there, I just wanted to post that in haiku form. I will be back in this thread tonight. Looking for brains. Preferably my own. I can't seem to find it anywhere Pls help, me so dumb

[DeathRowKitty]

In fact I am so dumb that I can't count to 7...............................................................

FAILFROG IS FAIL

[Psyche]

@Psyche - I find the proposal itself to be a scummy one. There is no need to look at a justification for a behavior to know that said behavior sets off alarm bells.

Okay, that's it.

vote goodmorning

No, this still sucks. When a player does something you find suspicious, you always examine his supposed reason for doing it. Especially for proposing a massclaim. Because his supposed reasons for doing it are the ONLY way you can differentiate between town seriously thinking something is a good idea and scum trying to pull a fast one.

If you don't examine the justification, you are deliberately skipping a critical step in the whole scumhunting process. It doesn't make any sense.

What you're saying is also dubious. You are

definitely

voting Slandaar for theoretical reasons - because you think massclaiming is a bad idea, rather than because Slandaar has done something suspicious.

DRK is probably one of my better Townreads ATM and Slandaar's argument on the massclaim is indeed bullshit (as I mentioned before).

What shall I do now? What shall I do?
I shall jump all over this wagon.

Vote: Slandaar

all you say about Slandaar in this post is that his theoretical argument is no good and announce that you want him dead.

Proposing massclaim is not null at this time because there is a clear deficit to Town in it.

Town suffering from a behavior =/= behavior being scummy.

That's the distinction between antitown and scummy. I'm sure you aren't ignorant of it. You are playing stupid and now backtracking from a terrible but opportunistic bandwagon.

[Psyche]

Q@! I WILL HAVE YOU. EN GARDE; WE SHALL CONTINUE OUR EXCHANGE.

Regarding Jennifer

: I still find it odd that Jenn tried to accuse me so hard even though others had dropped out for some time. Because I feel that if Jenn was a scum, she would have gotten off the wagon long before it had lost popularity, but instead she stayed until the very end,

I am actually getting some town read on her now.

[...]

Apparently, this Slandaar vs Om wagon is getting hot.

I'm going to keep my vote on Jenn

until I can get a better read on both Slandaar and Om.

The cognitive dissonance is hurting my brain.

So let's talk cognitive dissonance.

You're suggesting that Elleran should instead just unvote because of her now ambivalent feelings, as she has no other lead, but you explicitly condemned that very behavior by another player (was it previousme?).

Ambivalence, lack of alternatives, following

your own

advice...I just don't see how what Elleran did can be intelligently criticized the way you did.

(snip)

PEDIT:
Can we please lynch TheTrollie? I'm actually frustrated in real life with his VI style of play. Now, not only is he flat out refusing to answer my questions, but he's refusing to play as part of a player in this game. Clearly, he doesn't know how to play this game and is just here to troll players like Dannflor and myself.

Two things here. First is how he links himself and thereby his image to one of the games better, townier posters = scum move. Second is the request to lynch trollie which is followed up in his next post with a jump to kthxbye just about out of nowhere, which is, yet again, buddying up to Dannflor.

Seems that its about time for me to be voting Elleran again. Maybe the earlier hints of scumminess weren't so playstyle related afterall.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elleran

And hindsight just makes this easier, not easy.

First thing here. The idea of a scum deliberately thinking that mentioning a townie's name in association with himself might somehow win townpoints is just silly. As well as the idea that this fits in the category of buddying. Moreover, a study I did on the use of the word "flailing" several months ago suggested that scum disproportionately resort to buzzwords like these in order to push mislynches. Your uncomfortable usage of the phrase here (along with "uncertainty" disclaimer you finished with) makes me think your post could be an example of this.

Second thing here. The request to lynch Trollie was not over scumhood, but was a test of the waters of a policy lynch. It was never commital, and Elleran's decision to switch to kthxbye so soon after the request as a shift from tunneling on Trollie for several posts just confirms that. But you obscure the background of the switch with words like "jump" and by failing to mention that the 'next post' was an addendum to the previous one.

And since when is expression of suspicion towards someone for the first time and voting for that person in that same post something that is scummy?

[Psyche]

Q21 and Goodmorning! Perfect combo! Yoga Shangri-La!!

[goodmorning]

Proposing massclaim is not null at this time because there is a clear deficit to Town in it.

There is a clear deficit to town in quickhammering.

What differentiates the two?

If kthx found Elleran sufficiently scummy, there isn't necessarily any deficit to Town.

Also
@Psyche - I think there is a fundamental difference between what I am saying and what I am trying to say. I think there is a fundamental difference between what you call theory and what I call theory.
I also don't usually go back and check up on my opinions of people or my reasons for voting them.