Magic: The Gathering,GO TEAM MS!

[Fate]

@Fate: Ash Zealot, Gore-House Chainwalker, Rakdos Shredfreak are all better for human gruul aggro deck than Hamlet Captain. And Ulvenwald Tracker is human removal on a stick.

the only reason I don't like tracker is because he's public.

They know I have removal on a stick, I much rather have pit fight which can't be removed and is instant, but yeah I'd like to fit him in.


Ash Zealots are great but...they CAN"T be cast off Burning tree emissary. Same with Shredfreak.

They're an example of "a solid constructed good value card" that has limited synergy with my deck.

Hamlet captain has the problem of not giving the bonus when he comes down which I found out as a limiter in some playtesting today, whereas I can play a mayor and he immediately has an effect on my entire team. Will probably stick with mayors just because I already have them

Ninja: Fuck off? Seriously, if you have nothing constructive to add just shut the fuck up. You know a lot more about magic than me, have a great deal more knowledge of the card base than me, and if you're going to use that advantage to look down your nose and mock me instead of help me achieve the goals I have with magic then I seriously don't want to read another one of your posts directed at me. I'm not special, I already acknowledged as much when I saw a deck come out on Magic's site the day after I thought of mine. But I at least THOUGHT of mine and enjoy playing it because it IS MINE and not just the community's agreed upon "best cards for those colors to win the game" instead it is "the best cards that suit the playstyle and particular theme/strategy I'mt trying to use."

[Fate]

Fate, I would seriously consider cutting the wild beastmasters. Without pump spells or effects for it's just a mediocre 1/1 for 3 - it'll give your guys like, no noticeable effect at all. Hamlet captain and ranger's guile, quite apart from the fact that you probably want to be saving the latter to use as a pseudo-counterspell most of the time, also don't amplify it very much, and that just leaves ghor-clan rampager. Which is obviously a powerful interaction, but I'm not sure it's worth having in your deck. Also super awkward that it never evolves experiment 1.

The second awkward thing is that all your dudes are small, and you have pit fight. I'll be blunt here, most of the time pit fight just wont clear dudes out of the way like you want it to. Searing spear is 3 damage, which is about the high end for your pit fight damage - yes in some dreamworld you might have a 6/6 rubblebelt raider and get to eat a thragtusk, but I think it's more likely that you're stuck with a 2/2 against an augur of bolas or something and pit fight is just dead in your hand where searing spear is not.

If you can pick up rancors, do that cause that card is sweet and awesome and the best thing. Plus if you make any other green beatdown decks rancors go in that as well.

pretty good points. I guess I have only been using pit fight with success with Rampagers (or using it on someone who was unblocked to deal "double" damage to someone that did block one of my guys, dealing 4-6 damage usually).

Rancors are on my to get list, I just don't understand when do good players fit that into their curve? Play another two drop on Turn 3 and rancor something thats swinging?

Wild beastmaster is out of my "somehwat legit" decklist as is ranger's guile. I just like their interaction as unviable as it is in a super competitive format. But Wild beastmaster is just a great card to use with blood rush and a bunch of little dudes swinging. And you can sure as hell pit fight those against a line for some clearance.


Question: Does Flinthoof Boar evolve Experiment 1? If it comes into play when I have a mountain, does that count as it being a 3/3 for evolution?

[InflatablePie]

The only reason I'd run Captain over Mayor is if I wanted to spend $0.08 instead of $8 for the playset. Mayor is better because of the constant +1 rather than conditional (even if it disappears because of flipping, don't you get Wolves too?), but I could see it used as a substitute if someone's on a tight budget or something.

Then again if you're shelling out for shocks/duals/Hellriders/Domri, just go and grab the Mayors.

[dramonic]

Beastmaster without any boost is a bad idea.
Also not sure what you hope to stick in a pit fight, none of your monsters seem very apt for it unless theres one im not seeing

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm having an idea for a Wild Beastmaster deck that uses Master Biomancer and Mayor of Avabruck

[Thestatusquo]

You: Hey, I'm playing magic and I'd like some help.
Us: Awesome! Here are some suggestions. New players are awesome.
You: Fuck that, everything you said has been done and you are not creative and stupid and all magic is luck
Us: ...
You: HERE IS A DECKLIST WHAT DO YOU THINK
Us: Fuck You.
You: OMG STOP BEING SO NEGATIVE WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT BAD CARDS YOU THINK I SHOULD PLAY.

[mykonian]

I'm sure there are more constructive forms of criticism.

[chamber]

Shea's criticism isn't laughing at your lack of knowledge about magic, fate. Myko is right that shea isn't being as constructive as he could be, but the questions you are asking aren't very clear, which makes answering them frustrating. In your head you have some limitation other than making the best deck possible, but you've never communicated that limitation effectively. If its a matter of the budget, give us a budget to work within, if its a matter of card availability, describe what kinds of cards you have access to. If its a matter of casualness, define how games you enjoy tend to play out, and the turn that games normally end on. If its a matter of innovation, well you have to do that yourself not ask us for help. But more than that, you are putting false restraints on yourself if innovation is all you are worried about. You can still innovate on top of existing decks. You don't need to carve out an entirely new space yourself and build from scratch. The nature of information in all fields these days is that the crowd knows more than you, yet we still learn new things. You can still use net decks as a foundation, or as a way to understand what needs to be beat, and still end up with progress.

[Fate]

Point of view's a funny thing, here's mine:

Fate: I'm new to magic! Here's an assload of rules question that I have no idea how it resolves
You: Here's how that works
Fate: KEWLTHX

Shea: I enjoy playing magic at its most competitive format against equally competent people, thats what I find the most fun.
Fate: hmmm, maybe its because I'm not good, but I find that magic is the most fun when I get to play cards I enjoy against people I know personally, and also when I win.
Myko: HURRDURRDUR
Fate: Shut the fuck up myko you aren't even on topic

LATER

Fate: SO GTC came out and I love Gruul, here's a deck I thought of that fits my style and has cards I love. How can I make this semi-viable with more cards that fit my theme? I don't want advice on how to make it "tier 2 competitiionz yo" so if you could leave those out it'd be nice.
You: Those cards suck, Raiders suck, the cards you enjoy suck. You need Hellriders, Ash Zealots, and Thundermaw Hellkites. Hell, you need RDW and to realize that's the only deck that is viable that fits your style.
Fate: ??? You don't understand, I already know how to make a RDW deck. There's plenty of resources out there that point to the best cards for my playstyle, and Reck himself has shown me how to play RDW. I want to play a GRUUL early aggro deck that features a few gimmicky win things that I enhoy like Wild Beastmaster.
You: NOPE
Fate: *does some research which he should've done on his own I guess but HEY I THOUGHT I HAD A COMMUNITY TO ASK BUT GUESS NOT* wow Kessig Malcontents is a card that fits my gimmick, why did no one make me aware of this card?
You: Because it sucks
Fate: No, you REALLY don't understand, I REALZIE my deck isn't Standard ultra-competitive viable. but this is the sort of gimmicky card that fits my deck and I enjoy.... Wow HAMLET CAPTAIN seems pretty good for my deck too, you guys REALLY don't get what I'm asking do you?
Shanba: Here's some well reasoned advice to round your deck out more and make better use of the things you want /british
Fate: THANKS SHANBERS <3
Shea: RAWRAWRWARWRAR YOU WHINY BITCH THE WAY YOU PLAY MAGIC IS WRONG AND WANTING TO PLAY SUBPAR DECKS IS STUPID AND YOURE DUMB

[Fate]

Now, I'm pretty sure the root of all this is a misunderstanding Shea, so lets CLEAR THAT THE FUCK UP RIGHT NOW and get back to whatever mutual respect we had before.

ONE:

I REALIZE you feel like I "downplayed" the amount of skill it takes to play a game you find very precious and are dedicated to.

This is completely false.

It's not even an "opinion" I have that you can disagree with (that magic is too luck-based), that's NOT the opinion I have. I have a PREFERENCE. And that PREFERENCE is that Magic, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE LUCK IS (1 out of 100 games or 1 out of 1000 based on luck), its TOO luck based for

ME

PERSONALLY

to dedicate all that much time to mastering it. I rather just play it at the level I play now, which is playing enjoyable cards and trying to win with them.

So to make it clear: MAGIC IS DEFINITELY A SKILL BASED GAME AND PROBABLY TAKES YEARS TO MASTER AND HAS SUBTELTIES I HAVE YET TO EVEN BEGUN TO UNDERSTAND. I never stated otherwise, the CLOSEST I came was a semi-serious joke that a Mirror match with two decks that are DESIGNED TO HAVE NO INTERACTION WITH THE OPPONENT was determined by mostly luck. Which you took as an offense to ALL mirror matches and ALL of magic, and now have begun a crusade to shut me down at every percieved "assault" on the integrity of magic or every post I make.


I hope that's cleared up now.

Chamber I think I've been pretty clear. Cards in the Innistrrad block that I had no knowledge of that would fit my deck are what I was looking for for advice. AKA MALCONTENTS AND HAMLET AND THE LIKE. Hell there are probably still M13 cards I don't even know about. I think I've been very clear about the outline of my deck, and that the limitations are staying in my colors and in my niche strategy.

And if Shanba could understand that then the rest of you are just in this 'wall' where "deckbuilding=hyper-competitive meta worthy OR budget based gimmicks" with no inbetween, when there should be.

[mykonian]

Maybe you could set the budget? That gives people a clear idea what cards can and cannot be used.

[chamber]

Its not that those are the only 2, its that those 2 extremes are well defines goals, and 'somewhere in the middle' is much less well defined. Your desired strategy is also super straightforward, which makes it harder to innovate/be interesting in. I don't know what cards you know, if you want to learn all the r/g cards in standard, read through gatherer here: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... 29&format=[%22Standard%22]

[Nuwen]

The competitive demand on decks we make isn't very high. Fate plays, uh,

me

while we smoke weed and watch cartoons.

We don't have access to a lot of cards, and will often play write-in cards just to experience nuanced or high-end card mechanics in our existing decks. Last night, for example, we played a couple games where Fate's Mayors were instead Hamlets.

Fate's decks:
Early aggro Gruul humans, featuring burning emissaries to out-race a defense curve
Rakdos control, burn, kill featuring madcap skills and thrill-kill assassins

My decks:
Multiculti lobber crew / hypersonic dragon control & burn featuring mercurial chemister
Survival ramp & extort meatshields featuring crypt ghasts, ghost council
Incomplete aggro-control dimir featuring invisible stalkers, hands of binding, and some other wincon that I haven't figured out yet.

The store we play in was

banned by DCI

, so we don't even have a chance of getting us points into local prix or anything like that. High-end competitive meta (and the price-inflated cards that fuel it) really don't interest either of us. We're MUCH more likely to fall in love with a trash-tier mechanic/card, and then enjoy building a deck where that mechanic shines.

[xRECKONERx]

Why the fuck was your LGS banned

[Nuwen]

No clue. Wizards cut off this guy's retail account too, which blows. The store is a one man shop and I assume MtG brings in a lot of his weekly income.

One injustice at a time though.

[Sudo_Nym]

Slight gear shift, but I have a casual Dimir deck that uses cards like Invisible Stalker, Keymaster Rogue, and Dimir Keyrune to carry Shadow Strikes. May give ideas for that Dimir deck you mentioned.

[Sudo_Nym]

No clue. Wizards cut off this guy's retail account too, which blows. The store is a one man shop and I assume MtG brings in a lot of his weekly income.

One injustice at a time though.

If he's been blackballed, then he was either breaking the organization rules, or was caught fixing fnms.

[dramonic]

I dont know how well they work in your deck, but elder of laurels and cleaver riot are nice (imo) cards for what you're going for
Also faithless looting is always fun

[Fate]

Maybe you could set the budget? That gives people a clear idea what cards can and cannot be used.

There isn't one really. I'll pay 20 for another Domri, but not X for a good card I don't enjoy (like hellkites)

Its not that those are the only 2, its that those 2 extremes are well defines goals, and 'somewhere in the middle' is much less well defined. Your desired strategy is also super straightforward, which makes it harder to innovate/be interesting in. I don't know what cards you know, if you want to learn all the r/g cards in standard, read through gatherer here: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... 29&format=[%22Standard%22]

[Fate]

You're right Chamber, and I ll admit I overreacted after I found some niche c cards, I was just angry I was being misunderstood.

Its not even innovation, I just like underdog cards that can be effective in my deck. Cards people won't see coming in a deck, catch them off guard at least.it doesn't have to be a combo that's brand new

[Sudo_Nym]

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with Pit Fights. I'd just go with Domri and Tracker, and a ton of blood rush. Just try and maximize Domri's plus one ability.

[Thestatusquo]

to build on something chamber said, if you are only interested in doing fun things casually in magic against friends, why the hell are you playing a red based aggro deck? It's like the least interactive and most boring thing to do with magic cards.

If that's your desired level of magic (again, as chamber said, something that wasn't communicated very well until this exact moment) then I suggest you try commander. It is a format based around doing cool things playing magic with your friends, basically. 100 card deck comprised entirely of one-ofs. If I recall correctly, sudo plays that format with some level of regularity. Maybe he can give you a good entry point?

[TheButtonmen]

Cheap fun not constructed viable decks you say?

Sounds an excuse to toss together another $20 deck list to me!

[Fate]

to build on something chamber said, if you are only interested in doing fun things casually in magic against friends, why the hell are you playing a red based aggro deck? It's like the least interactive and most boring thing to do with magic cards.

If that's your desired level of magic (again, as chamber said, something that wasn't communicated very well until this exact moment) then I suggest you try commander. It is a format based around doing cool things playing magic with your friends, basically. 100 card deck comprised entirely of one-ofs. If I recall correctly, sudo plays that format with some level of regularity. Maybe he can give you a good entry point?

That's a matter of opinion. This deck is fun for me and has a theme/flavor I enjoy.

I feel like there's this wall of misunderstanding that is causing a lot of unnecessary animosity between us. Can we agree, which should've happened pages ago, that we enjoy the game in different ways?

Commander decks seem silly to me, but I appreciate the suggestion. But you see, I dislike what little luck is already

in standard magic

why would I want to play a format has only 1-ofs? Sure it'd allow me to use more cards "I enjoy" but I haven't been playing long enough to have 60 cards I enjoy, so maybe sometime down the line to consider (even though I don't see myself playing magic for years).

[Fate]

On an unrelated note, this guy might be my new favorite player to watch:
Tomoharu Saito, who went 5-0 with this decklist:
12 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Rancor

3 Traitorous Blood
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Reckless Waif


The only thing I don't understand is 4x Reckless Waif. I understand WHY, because in control matchups the control player usually doesn't do anything, but his other side of the strategy: (early burn+BTE+Flinthoof Boar) will make his Waif flip immediately back at the end of turn 2 most times. I mean sure if he has ash zealots that'd be preferable, but what if his hand is

1 Reckless Waif, 2xBTE, 1 Flinthoof Boar, 1x Hellrider, 2x lands?

just seems like it would work against himself. sometimes that'd it be significant? Also I'm not sure why he doesn't have mugging in this deck and pillar of flame side-boarded for zombies or something? PoF seems good against zombies/re-animators but mugging seems better overall against all other decks.