Two-Headed Mafia 2 - GAME OVER!

[re2fan]

At Eon

Reason eh, HELLO but i told that to explain 2 deaths. And im voted because i told truth? Thats crap TSQ.
And unlike you fan and i did more posts here, because we are trying to find any of those killer sides. I hope someone will look at your posts HERE and say how helpful they were.

Must say already you didnt talk so much like in that last game we were in, maybe in this game you have something to hide? [metagaming TSQ style]

Uh. Yeah clearly have no idea what metagaming is...

1)You trying to explain two deaths is scummy. In my opinion, the only person who gains anything about speculating about roles is scum, you speculated about roles, therefore you are scum in my eyes.

2)Uh...I have posted tons of helpful things. Why are you OMGUS attacking me here? This strategy is not going to do much to stop people from voting you.

3)No. You said "Mafia and sk" not anything else. Anything else was said later when you were back peddling and taking the easy way out given to you by other players. I find that more scummy, not less.

4) Why are you attacking me? I am not the only one voting for you. Nor am I the only one focusing on your particular misstep. I find it interesting that you cue on me. I wonder if it's because you think that you can get people to sympacize with you because I dont like you...

5) Thats not true. I play the same every game I'm in with you.

6) You are very adept at picking out one word in a post, focusing on it, and then using it in an attempt to discredit the entire post. This time, it's metagaming. Last time, it was quick lynch. I am only metagaming in so far as I don't like you, so I'd be happy to see you go. BUT and I already said this, finding scum supercedes that fact, so your point is moot, because if you were scummy I'd vote for you, and if you weren't I wouldn't regardless. This vote only has to do with metagaming only insofar as it makes me happy.

7)

You are METAGAMING, [remainder of quoted paragraph deleted pending further review ~Courk]

[Quoted comment deleted pending further review ~Courk]

At Re2fan:

umm I was clearing up the fact that he wasn't slipping up... I needed to do that because you failed to understand his post properly. You are just saying all these things from an assumption you made because you read one sentence in a post Eon made, without reading the other ones..

If that's how you catch out scum.. you're not a very good asset to the town.

1) Actually, I have read every post both of you made.

2) The point is he did slip up. He said "mafia and sk." and even if he went back and said he meant something different later, that does not change what he originally said.

3) As I have already said, the fact that he is now backtracking, and riding another persons less scummy interpretation of his words makes him seem more scummy in my eyes, not less.

4) This game is played on assumptions, sir. That is how you find scum. If you wait to have a cop investigation every time you play mafia to lynch, you will lose a lot of times, but that's the only way you can play mafia without assumptions. And well, if that's how YOU play, I too doubt YOUR ability to help the town. Course, I think you're a SK, so I don't think you want to help the town.

Yes this game involves assumptions, but it also involves common sense. I was pointing out how your assumption was wrong because it was based on one sentence and not on the point Eon was trying to make. I'm just suggesting ppl look at how Eon mentioned SK. He was thinking about how many mafia there are. He mentioned SK as an example out of the many possiblities such as vigilante etc.. The only mistake is his lack of information, and trusting his fellow town to see where he was coming from without having to be so clear and explicit. I think if he was scum he'd be alot more careful...

[re2fan]

Mafia is just weird to all focus ibesha when they could get another kill in, an SK is an obvious example of what could have happened.

/stab me now bitches!!

[Thestatusquo]

Yes this game involves assumptions, but it also involves common sense. I was pointing out how your assumption was wrong because it was based on one sentence and not on the point Eon was trying to make. I'm just suggesting ppl look at how Eon mentioned SK. He was thinking about how many mafia there are. He mentioned SK as an example out of the many possiblities such as vigilante etc.. The only mistake is his lack of information, and trusting his fellow town to see where he was coming from without having to be so clear and explicit. I think if he was scum he'd be alot more careful...

All I can say is that if you only look at what people say, and not what's underneath the words, you will not catch very many scum. I think his comment was more nefarious than you are making it out to be, but guess what, that's my perogative, just as it is yours to say I'm wrong. *shrug*

[re2fan]

All I can say is that if you only look at what people say, and not what's underneath the words, you will not catch very many scum.

But that's exactly wot you are doing...

[Thestatusquo]

No, I am looking underneath his words, to the subconcious meaning of them in his mind. I'm sure he didn't MEAN to call himself the SK, but I think he made the post with the information in his mind without realizing that the information that theres a sk would not be known by townies as well. That is my thought process.

[re2fan]

No, I am looking underneath his words, to the subconcious meaning of them in his mind. I'm sure he didn't MEAN to call himself the SK, but I think he made the post with the information in his mind without realizing that the information that theres a sk would not be known by townies as well. That is my thought process.

Well, I hope you can review your thought process when u find out the truth.

[Thestatusquo]

If I am wrong, then I am wrong. In a game of mafia you have to be willing to make mistakes, because like I said, barring a cop investigation, you can never be 100% sure. Therefore, whether you are scum or not will not change the way I play.

[re2fan]

I'd like to know what others think of Eon's 'slip'.

[Thok Thok]

Vote Count

Eon/re2fan (3) (thestatusquo/ubertimmy, Lowell/sprontalic , Cogito Ergo Sum/Mgm)

armlx/nightson (1) (Glork/MOS)

[Thestatusquo]

Then read the thread instead of cueing on me. Several of them have already voiced opinions on it.

[Glork]

I don't like TSQ's attacks on Eon. Period. When I first questioned Eon about the "Why did you assume an SK" thing, I wanted to see how he reacted. His reaction was a pretty typical "townie who assumed SK because that's generally more common than multiple killing groups or a N1-active vigilante" reply. If Eon/Re is scum (a distinct possibility still), I don't think that he's an SK. But look at Eon's responses to me again:

Eon: Is there any particular reason you said "scum and SK"? Both players were shot, and there is no flavor (as far as I can tell) to indicate "Serial Killer" specifically.

2 Kills? Well i cant say for sure if its SK it can be Vigilante or something i just told it like to explain 2 kills.

What about, say, two mafia groups?

Glork =[
I dont know, i just told that to explain 2 kills unless Ibaesha shot herself in head because she hated this work she had.

Maybe I'm letting someone pull the the wool over my eyes, but it sounds pretty genuine. Eon came to a conclusion that was not unreasonable, and his language is very natural. It sounds to me like he really thought to himself, "Two kills... Mafia + SK? Seems most likely. Okay, that's what I'll go with."


TSS/Yosarian look like they're trying to fuel the momentum against Eon without putting their vote where their mouths are. I just get the feeling that they're pushing the easy lynch without trying to look obvious. It's starting to give me second thoughts about my earlier Eon/Re suspicions.

[Mastermind of Sin]

*zzZZzzZZzzIagreezzZZzzZZzz*

[Mgm]

I don't like TSQ's attacks on Eon. Period. When I first questioned Eon about the "Why did you assume an SK" thing, I wanted to see how he reacted. His reaction was a pretty typical "townie who assumed SK because that's generally more common than multiple killing groups or a N1-active vigilante" reply. If Eon/Re is scum (a distinct possibility still), I don't think that he's an SK.

Night one active vigs aren't that uncommon. Some mods force their vigs to kill.

Unvote

Glork makes enough of a point to make me question my vote was in the right place.

[Courk]

Comments referring to an on-going game have been removed pending further review.

[Yosarian2]

TSS/Yosarian look like they're trying to fuel the momentum against Eon without putting their vote where their mouths are. I just get the feeling that they're pushing the easy lynch without trying to look obvious. It's starting to give me second thoughts about my earlier Eon/Re suspicions.

It's not scummy to observe some scum tells without following it automatically with a vote, Glork.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Sorry for my inactivity over the last couple of days. My computer died and I have only now been able to get it running again. Since it's running, I should not have this problem again. I still need to read the thread again before I come up with anything worth posting. My plans to do that over the last couple of days were pretty much destroyed, and right now I have a ton of things I need to catch up with. I should have time this weekend, so I'll plan on rereading the thread and posting something worthwhile then.

[Glork]

TSS/Yosarian look like they're trying to fuel the momentum against Eon without putting their vote where their mouths are. I just get the feeling that they're pushing the easy lynch without trying to look obvious. It's starting to give me second thoughts about my earlier Eon/Re suspicions.

It's not scummy to observe some scum tells without following it automatically with a vote, Glork.

I just didn't like the timing/placement of it. It struck me as fueling the wagon. I've logged/noted it in case the issue of your scumminess comes up again.

[ambic]

Incidentally, I cannot think of a sane reason for scum to target Fritzler on account that even when he is town he inadvertently helps the mafia consistently. I have seen him, as a tracker, post the phrase ":knows stuff:" while starting a bandwagon that cost the town the game. He knew absolutely nothing, and was lying and or didnt know how a tracker role worked. Either way, I doubt the mafia or an SK would feel threatened by him. Ibby on the other hand is an unknown quatity to me, since I have only seen him/her on AIM chat - and I don't play on that often.

[sprontalic]

Just with the overdefensiveness issue. I think it has to judged on a case-by-case basis. Some accusations are so ambiguous that they are meant to just be ignored, in which case an aggressive defense against it would be scummy...this is of course unless the accussed it a newb in which case they will naturally be overdefensive especially in light of 3 votes...this has happened to me before as Glork'd be familiar with.

On the contrary some accusations have basis, and they can't be ignored. Simply disregarding them can be considered scummy because they're obviously hestitating, not wanting to slip up.

The point I'm trying to make is, this isn't something you can explain by a universal formula, it changes with circumstance.

Looking at TMH's situation, his defense started at post 152. I think that looks fine to me. He enquired about having three votes for 6 or so pages. I think that's reasonably protown to me.

~~~~~~~~~

Next up, spectrumvoid. Originally I didn't have much of a problem with her vote on Eon since I believe that reasoning also. I find it entirely plausible that she found some change in her thinking and abandoning the metagaming thing. But I think post 401 and 405 is scummy. If she's that sure Eon/Re aren't scum, why vote them especially in light of a deadline and risk getting them killed?

~~~~~~~~~

some PBPA

Re2fan 68 still jumps out at me. I still can't see where it came from. Could be nothing but noted for future reference.

Ambic 86: H2 was already on 3 votes without good reason so theres no good reason to stick another vote on him. Besides the fact that he tried asking for permission to do it means he doesn't want it to be completely random. That in itself doesn't site right with me.

Ambic 96: His idea about day 1 seemed pretty protown to me...but then I don't like his exploration of a quick day 1 lynch to get it over with. But then again he is a newb and I think newbs are more likely to look at conventional day 1 strategies (that is discussion or lynching). He's discredited the potency of discussion so it's only natural that he'll look into lynching.

YES: Pretty sure ambic is telling the town his opinions on things as well as talking to his partner.
--Not only this. If we all only talk to our partners the game will die on account of nothing to analyse. No one can be caught being scummy by not posting. Lynch the lurker will become our only method of finding scum and thats pretty worthless.
One of these: Pretty sure I could be wrong and ambic will enlighten us, or ignore us altogther.

I just thought of something interesting in light of this. I think we should rigourously lurker hunt in this game. Since there are two heads for each player scum would most likely discuss the game with each other outside the thread so they don't slip up. If we pressure them hard I think they'll slip up more readily, exposing their scumminess.

TMH 196: He was already voting me...but then he says the post he quoted wasn't worth a vote. I really looks like mega backpedalling to me that seemed to have escaped most people.

Re2fan 261: Blatantly playing the newbie card.

Eon 262: The most half assed response I've ever witnessed.

Eon 265: Blatant attempt at appeasing Ibby...surely that's a scum tell because townies have need to appease.

Shadowlurker 268: It makes sense to be unforgiving of playing the newbie card in a full sized game...except when the game is full of newbies. The fact that we have so many newbies means that most of them are going to be inexperienced and inevitably play the newbie card. Although I'm not saying we should ignore it, but if we were to smite everyone who uses the newbie card with a lynch we are essentially shooting ourselves in the foot. Surely that can only benefit scum.

Eon 286: Typical scum WIFOM argument (with the lynch me and you'll see I'm wrong).

Eon 326: I swear I heard some psychologist say once that quantifying things excessively means that they're hiding something.

Ambic 426:

FOS you (Ambic)

for even considering a no lynch. No lynch is always bad!

That's basically all of day 1...it's very simplified but rereading 25 pages of crap is always annoying. There were also things that I was specifically looking out for. Anyway with the day 2 action so far, I think Glork has a point about Eon. Although I'm not entirely convinced since selective knowledge can so easily be faked, I not that sure he's scum anymore after reread...more like an unhelpful townie that's playing poorly.

So right now I'm going to hop back on SV's wagon because it seem so appealing right now.

vote: Spectrumlord

for blatantly looking for a kill regardless of circumstance during deadline.

*phew* that was tough work.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, writing this post as I’m rereading this game… and man, I forgot exactly how much spam was in this game. Yargh.

My other head seems to have gone to bed. Oh well... I disagree with meta-gaming, by the way, since Glork is always a pretty much unpredictable person.

I don't like the Eon wagon either. He plays like this everywhere.

I do not support meta-gaming. But in other games I'm in with him, he also irritates me a whole lot (as I'm sure I'm irritating him). I can't help but let it influence my judgement since his hyper-defensiveness is very consistent. But I've tried not to have too much an impact on my decision.

These seem somewhat contradictory. Would you explain whether or not you consider these types of statements (i.e. “they always play like this”) as metagaming, SpectrumVoid?

While I’m reading, I’m noticing Ibby/Fritz going after Eon/Re2 a lot very early in the game (with Fritzler using his “know how I know you’re scum?” line), and a direct interrogation from Ibaesha on Eon, and this type of interaction continued until about page 15. Now that Day Two has started, Eon/Re2 are speculating that Ibby/Fritz might have died because SpectrumVoid killed them. I usually don’t bother with the WIFOM “who would kill so-and-so?” game, but I am marking the possibility that Eon/Re2 is the culprit trying to pin the nightkill on the next most convenient person.

This comment in particular:

poor ibesha =[ /never liked doctors

Bothers me. It seems like we had a lot of people talking about how the nightkills were pretty bad, but Re2 lamenting Ibby after having been

attacked

by Ibby on Day One is not sounding very genuine to me. Also, the fact that Ibby/Fritz were not even a Doctor is just confusing.

Also, I don’t know if anybody else is catching this vibe, but it looks to me like Glork/MoS are coaching Eon/Re2 as the game is progressing. Whenever Eon/Re2 starts to get themselves in trouble, one of them seems to come to the rescue in some way (by either giving a distraction, or directly explaining something for them). As it is, I actually agree with Sprontalic’s original assessment on Eon: I thought his way of answering the two nightkills problem was fairly scummy, despite his “explanation” afterwards.

great.

So we have 3 competing wagons...

This post has been noted. The three wagons at the time were Eon/Re2, Lordy/SpectrumVoid, and Bird1111/Shadowlurker. TSQ’s vote was on Lordy/SV at the time. This is simply to note a possible Eon/Re2 + TSQ/UT pairing for later, since this is exactly the type of post I forget about.

In general, the four pairings of Eon/Re2 (aided by Glork/MoS), Lordy/SV, and TSQ/UT are sticking out the most to me, although it’s rather jumbled around, since there seems to be quite a lot of contention between these four pairings alone… I would wager that there are probably two-three scum (not necessarily of the same alignment) in this list.

I’ll go with a:

Vote: Eon/Re2

. I still think their interaction with Ibby/Fritz yesterday was pretty bad (I would urge others to read it over again), and they still never really went to much lengths in finding scum. Now on Day Two, instead of looking for scummy things, they seem to be instead looking for scum based off the

nightkills

, which strongly implies to me that Eon/Re2 may have been part of a group (or the person) responsible for the death of Ibby/Fritz (which is only compounded with Re2’s “lament” over Ibby). The possible slip about killing groups is practically sealing the deal for me.

Sorry this post isn't more organized, just writing as I was thinking.

[Eon]

Actually thats stupid, IF I would be scum i wouldn't KILL ibby seriously she is the one who got some protective words about fan and me in the end. So why would we kill her?
I love how people attack me and fan for my post i did, i told That thing to explain 2 KILLS and yet people attack us for that. Yeah, indeed why not to vote against EON and FAN when you have the chance. Right people =]

Listen FAN could write mistake by confusing who ibby really was. You people should look under text a more often.

[re2fan]

"Bothers me. It seems like we had a lot of people talking about how the nightkills were pretty bad, but Re2 lamenting Ibby after having been attacked by Ibby on Day One is not sounding very genuine to me. Also, the fact that Ibby/Fritz were not even a Doctor is just confusing. "

poor ibesha =[ /never liked doctors"

Actually, the slash is there to seperate ibesha and the doctor. i.e: I was sad ibesha died, but I didn't care about the doc.. and that was a joking type remark.

Now that Day Two has started, Eon/Re2 are speculating that Ibby/Fritz might have died because SpectrumVoid killed them.

When did we say spectrum void killed them? :p


And while I'm at it.

I said STFU

I said that since MOS couldn't understand the previous post I had made. I told him what its basic meaning was: STFU.

[Yosarian2]

Heh...I'm sure Glork's going to accuse me again of "fueling a wagon without being on it", but eh, whateva.

Actually thats stupid, IF I would be scum i wouldn't KILL ibby seriously she is the one who got some protective words about fan and me in the end. So why would we kill her?

Quite often, I've seen a scum kill a good guy he considers to be a threat right after the good guy says something positive about the scum, in order to make himself look better.

[spectrumvoid]

I think trying to pick out scummy things and poking people to see their reactions is pro-townish.

and? what's your point? care to reference someone you see doing this, or are you just bring Captain Obvious?

This was in reference to the posts above mine saying someone is scummy for doing this.

[spectrumvoid]

Next up, spectrumvoid. Originally I didn't have much of a problem with her vote on Eon since I believe that reasoning also. I find it entirely plausible that she found some change in her thinking and abandoning the metagaming thing. But I think post 401 and 405 is scummy. If she's that sure Eon/Re aren't scum, why vote them especially in light of a deadline and risk getting them killed?

Here is my reason:

We're at deadline. No lynch is always bad. And if I don't vote for you, I have to vote for me.

Next point:

These seem somewhat contradictory. Would you explain whether or not you consider these types of statements (i.e. “they always play like this”) as metagaming, SpectrumVoid?

I've tried to explain this here:

I do not support meta-gaming. But in other games I'm in with him, he also irritates me a whole lot (as I'm sure I'm irritating him).

I can't help but let it influence my judgement since his hyper-defensiveness is very consistent. But I've tried not to have too much an impact on my decision.

A clarification: Basically, I do not use metagaming as a MAIN factor in voting someone/thinking he's scummy because of playstyle, but I do take it into account when the player's playstyle has been very consistent in other games. (Note: Yes, I've changed my mind a little on meta-gaming due to some issues in other games where it's been proven that meta-gaming helps a little.)

I agree with this.

Also, I don’t know if anybody else is catching this vibe, but it looks to me like Glork/MoS are coaching Eon/Re2 as the game is progressing. Whenever Eon/Re2 starts to get themselves in trouble, one of them seems to come to the rescue in some way (by either giving a distraction, or directly explaining something for them). As it is, I actually agree with Sprontalic’s original assessment on Eon: I thought his way of answering the two nightkills problem was fairly scummy, despite his “explanation” afterwards.

vote: Eon/re

I have other reasons for doing so, but that's the main one. More from me tomorrow if I'm not too tired after work.