Kingmaker II-Game Over

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, I got way-laid by a study session I had forgotten that I had planned for my Civil Liberties class. I will be rereading the thread now. After skimming the latest posts, I will simply admit I am confused about what to do concerning the MoS/Phoebus issue (even though I have thought about this at random intervals while in classes for the past week or so).

I personally think Phoebus has been pretty scummy, and nothing he has said or done today has made me think otherwise. I don't think his votes were on "gut" whatsoever, but were rather bandwagon votes which were made under the pretense of them being "gut". When there were already specific

reasons

be suspicious of the people Phoebus voted for, Phoebs instead cited absolutely no reasons. His recent apathy tells me nothing of his alignment: I have seen both lazy town and lazy scum. I do not think he would be a bad execution at all,

except

for the fact that MoS is continually defending him (and although I have tried to understand his reasoning, I simply do not agree with his stance).

My problem is that I am trying to understand

why

MoS would defend Phoebus for reasons I don't even understand, and for reasons I think do absolutely nothing in making me think Phoebus is pro-town. If MoS is scum, I seriously doubt he would defend his partner so blatantly and so poorly (WIFOM, blah blah, I know). If MoS is town, then he might actually be on to something, and I am just plain not understanding what he is getting at. (Of course, he could easily be town and completely wrong, in which case I will have to thwack him over the head later).

Either way, I don't think I have enough time to think about this dilemma as much as I would like to, and I think this issue might become clearer if I simply left it alone for now and let nature take its course, so to say. Despite the fact that I

really

do not approve of MoS refusing to vote, I am simply not getting a scum-vibe from him.

Any input right now would be appreciated.

[Thok]

If you're really not sure, you can go another way and leave it to tomorrow. Phoebus will be under pressure to contribute tomorrow anyways, and we can judge him then.

[pablito]

Hmm, I suppose MoS and I have had somewhat similar defenses for Phoebus? I'd have to re-read to know, and I can't be arsed to do that now

[Thok]

Pablito, are you trying to do a broomhead imitation?

[pablito]

I barely skimmed the first game and that was months ago when it was still going on. So hell if even I know.

[Glork]

My problem is that I am trying to understand why MoS would defend Phoebus for reasons I don't even understand, and for reasons I think do absolutely nothing in making me think Phoebus is pro-town. If MoS is scum, I seriously doubt he would defend his partner so blatantly and so poorly (WIFOM, blah blah, I know). If MoS is town, then he might actually be on to something, and I am just plain not understanding what he is getting at. (Of course, he could easily be town and completely wrong, in which case I will have to thwack him over the head later).

One thing about this.... the only time I can recall watching MoScum extensively was CoOps Mafia, in which he defended DGB near the beginning of her implosion. Though you say you wouldn't expect MoS to blatantly defend a scumbuddy, I've seen it in person. It's a distinct possibility.

[petroleumjelly]

I'm intrigued by PJ's extremely sudden inclusion of Rosso. I like it, but I have to wonder what the thought process for PJ was. At the same time, if we're wrong about Rosso, there's nearly no evidence for us to go on from there. The only people who have voiced concerns on Rosso are Glork and me. And both of us are fairly visible enough that a Rosso execution (which turns up with Rosso as town) won't necessarily change people's minds on us. It might cause some to tip over the edge. But the progression of the Rosso wagon was so quick and so out of nowhere that if there was scum intervention, it's so obvious it hurts. And Glork and I are already so visible, so there would be no significant information on us, but it would give us info on PJ and possibly some other info.

A few things to note here:

1.) I am under a deadline, and therefore I am rather forced to make "sudden inclusions". It was either that or restrict my own options, which I do not believe is a wise course of action. To have only stuck to my own precedent would have been quite headstrong of me.

2.) I am trying to mull things over for myself while considering comments from others. I have wondered about Rosso a few times in this game (especially concerning his stance towards me), so I am not putting him on my list solely because others have mentioned suspicions on him, but also because I have been a bit suspicious of him myself.

3.) I am trying to execute scum, and seeing as I am under a deadline, any scum will do. I am really not concerned with how much "information" we can derive in the future at the moment from a given lynch.

[Glork]

*sigh*

It'd also help if the condemned weren't completely lurking.

[pablito]

I'm all for a Rosso death. But that's what my gut says and apparently that's a word that shouldn't be spoken in these here parts.

Also, Rosso under pressure tomorrow isn't going to give us more information that we need. Rosso's defense style isn't going to give us progress. And he's also not adding anything. But that's just the "under deadline" part of me speaking. I would've preferred more from him - but knowing his defense and attack styles from other games, I feel we won't get as much as we want. So basically I'm saying that I don't like Rosso's gameplay as of late (which is ironic because many are saying that of me) and that it's reason to execute him.

Frankly if you execute one of MoS/Phoebus, scum and/or misguided townies may gang up on the surviving one and work him until he says something remotely scummy and that'll keep going until some day down the line when the other gets executed. Keeping them both in may allow us better investigation tomorrow, but that's also at a risk because if one/both are scum, that's just giving them time. This is likely wild speculation, but it's a possibility. But this is probably motivated by my desire to keep in more visible players in so that we can make more informed decisions in later days.

[pablito]

Then again, Rosso may be at risk of being replaced, so that brings my whole argument to naught. So maybe better off that you ignore me.

[Thok]

Frankly if you execute one of MoS/Phoebus, scum and/or misguided townies may gang up on the surviving one and work him until he says something remotely scummy and that'll keep going until some day down the line when the other gets executed.

Huh? This argument only applies if you think both of them are townies, and even then it's wonky.

[pablito]

Actually I do believe both to be town. But note that I also admit that it was wild speculation. Halfway through writing that post, I realized that I just really wanted a visible pair to survive together just so we can check them both out tomorrow instead of relying on one to retell the other's side of the story.

[Glork]

Freuidian Penis?

[Glork]

Curse my inability to spell.

[pablito]

Btw, total Freudian slip with the whole genitalia sing/plural argument earlier. And Jocasta was hot anyway.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My problem is that I am trying to understand why MoS would defend Phoebus for reasons I don't even understand, and for reasons I think do absolutely nothing in making me think Phoebus is pro-town. If MoS is scum, I seriously doubt he would defend his partner so blatantly and so poorly (WIFOM, blah blah, I know). If MoS is town, then he might actually be on to something, and I am just plain not understanding what he is getting at. (Of course, he could easily be town and completely wrong, in which case I will have to thwack him over the head later).

One thing about this.... the only time I can recall watching MoScum extensively was CoOps Mafia, in which he defended DGB near the beginning of her implosion. Though you say you wouldn't expect MoS to blatantly defend a scumbuddy, I've seen it in person. It's a distinct possibility.

That's because DGB was the only person in my scumgroup that could efficiently investigate people for me. I needed those investigations, so I had to stick my neck out to keep her alive for longer even though I knew it would get me in trouble. Even with what went down, I think we had a good chance at winning if not for random shit that happened afterwards.

What possible reason could I have for thinking Phoebus was more important than myself in my scumgroup, unless the mafia in this game have a bunch of special power abilities? What could I hope to gain by sticking my neck out on Day 1, knowing that once one of us died and was revealed as scum, the other would probably be executed in the near future? This isn't the sort of situation where sticking my neck out to give a scumbuddy one extra day will mean the difference between winning the game and losing it.

I would have no reason to do this except for the express purpose of trying to wifom you into thinking I wasn't scum with him, but the wifom would only come into full effect AFTER he died and was revealed as scum, so you get into the big circle of logic and points that make my head hurt, so I'm not gonna bother trying to type it all out. It's really up to you to spin the wheel of circular logic and pick a place to stop.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay, I’m just going to read everybody’s posts in isolation by the “view all posts” button, so I might refer to things out of context without meaning to do so. I will jot down some of my “spark notes” exactly as I think of them. This will probably be an unbearably long post, unfortunately, so apologies in advance.

AmeliaSlay

:
I have played a number of games with Amelia by now, and I have seen her as scum at least once off the top of my head. Although she has a few votes that I can recall, I am noticing that her comments are actually rather good, and I don’t see anything in her posts that looks overly fabricated (although the “my sentiments precisely” post was somewhat strange). I am thinking middle-of-the-pack, pro-townish.

Bird1111

:
See my previous comments. The recent non-posting almost makes me want to execute him simply to get rid of a lurker who I consider moderately scummy, but replacement might be the best option here. I really do not approve of lurkers whatsoever, but I still think replacement is more effective than lynching in the long run. Bird will probably be my default execution at this point, unless I find somebody I want to execute more as I go along.

BrianMcQueso

:
He can live… for now

cardb0ardb0x

:
Yes, his posts still strike me as a newbie-townsperson who was at first considering giving up. His original suspicions on MBL seemed genuine enough, so I am apt to believe his original “final words” to the town. He responds to direct questions, which is at least more helpful than some other players.

Just noticed that he seems to be copying my votes lately (Phoebus/Bird1111), and this comment:

If only I were scum, I would be a genius

makes me grimace slightly, but I currently don’t think he is scum.

ChannelDelibird

:
Hmm, his posts don’t seem as bad as I remembered them to be. His dialogue with cb0x actually looks fairly reasonable (i.e. it does not read to me like scum attacking an easy target), although I personally did not agree with his Mert vote. Considering he said he would “cover his thoughts ASAP” over a week ago, I certainly wish he had gotten to that so I might have a better general read, but right now he is on my neutral list. I can’t really place his alignment.

CrashTextDummie

:
Hunh, I never really realized how few posts CTD has this game. I am actually more used to having CTD present cases against people in particular, and he doesn’t seem to have done that this game. I haven’t caught anything from him that strikes me as scummy, but he also does not strike me as town as he usually does. I will slide him into the neutral category, with a note to myself to poke at him later.

Dead Rikimaru

:
Wow, almost absolutely nothing of substance posted. His entrance post doesn’t seem that bad, but his other two posts are pretty much saying “I will post soon” and “sorry I haven’t posted soon”. Not sure how I am supposed to read somebody who never posts. This is another person I would ask the

Mod

to possibly replace. Gonna have to be another neutral.

Fritzler

:
Really no reason to think he is scum at this point, although I would certainly like to know

why

he is so adamant in thinking CTD is scum. I don’t listen to arguments when they are simply forms of argumentum ad nauseum (repeating the same thing over and over). Fritz is actually still in my neutral category, since I generally can’t read Fritz enough to determine if he is town or scum this early.

Glork

:
I won’t bother looking over these posts, I am thinking Glork is town for today.

Machiavellian-Mafia

:
ARGH. These lurkers are annoying me.

Mod

, another person you might think about replacing right here. I have absolutely no read on him. Neutral.

Mastermind of Sin

:
Pretty much discussed him rather thoroughly in my last few posts, and I don’t think he is the right execution for today.

Mert

:
I’ve played a full game with Mert once before (in the now semi-infamous newbie game), and I am seeing a lot of similarities in his play. He is not afraid to go after connections or say things against the grain in general, and I think his views are definitely good for discussion in general. I want to keep him around, although I can’t really read him (I am thinking he would make awfully tricksy scum).

MrBuddyLee

:
Ugh, MBL, what am I going to do with you? I think I just have to give up on trying to read you, because you have this annoying habit of always striking me as somewhat scummy, but hardly ever scummy enough to pursue a lynch (or there always seems to be a better alternative). I am still a bit sore over WoT, so I think I will just keep my eye on you. Neutral.

Nightson (replacing Vikingfan)

:
Nothing much I can say about Vikingfan’s play, and the same pretty much goes for Nightson. Today really seems like it has just been about seven people talking, and everybody else throwing two pennies into the well and then promptly leaving before listening to them hit bottom. Yet

another

neutral (this is getting annoying).

Pablito

:
For as much as I thought Pabs was simply being strange town originally, his latest play (in the past week or so) has struck a very bad chord with me. Using a variant of “I was purposely acting scummy, so I could find scum by looking at who jumped on me” is an insanely old scum excuse, one which I myself employed in Back to Gambits II. My problem is:

If you are purposely acting scummy, how can you possibly find the people who find you scummy suspicious?

That pretty much makes no sense to me: you should

expect

people to find you scummy if you are going to purposely be scummy. His latest hint that I am acting “suddenly” also left a sour aftertaste, enough so that although I do not think I will execute him today, I will want to look at him tomorrow.

Phoebus

:
See my other posts.

PookytheMagicalBear

:
Hrm, Pooky really does seem to have a thing with lurking in all of his games lately. Although I certainly appreciated his defense of me (really, it was a defense), I suppose I shouldn’t be so quick to set him aside as being huggly ol’ Pooks, who is obviously never scum-scum. I honestly have never been able to have a consistent read on Pooky, so this’ll have to be another neutral. I would certainly like to see more participation from him.

Rosso Carne

:
Came into the game attacking me with circular logic (which was essentially “PJ is scum because PJ is scum”), and then repeated it over and over, with the caveat that “he would hammer Glork” (which doesn’t even make sense in a Kingmaker game). He seems to imply that both Glork and I are scum (see: “goodposting” to Pooky’s statement, which is inconsistent with Rosso’s own stance on myself), and although he promised to “get his shit together” over two weeks ago, he has not posted since. I am actually thinking this is probably my best bet at a scum execution, but I will finish making this post to see if I don’t find a better candidate I had not previously considered.

Spectrumvoid

:
I don’t know exactly when SV made her posts this game in relation to mine, but wow, I am catching too many similarities between SV’s thoughts and my thoughts. I am thinking most of her reasoning in this game has come almost primarily from myself, which I find rather disturbing (this has happened to me with other players in other games, and it never fails to freak me out). She also seems to be slightly fawning (“I really should start learning from PJ”), although this could have been made in tandem from another game we were just in (Leper Mafia), where SV also mentioned that she had learned something about why longer days are better for towns (although she

was

scum in that game) due to my extending Day One in that game to roughly 30 pages.

I am actually thinking SV is being slightly scummish, or at the very least, too sheeplike. I will be taking this into consideration.

Thok

:
This seems to be another game where Thok’s brainwaves seem to coincide with mine for much of the game, although not on all issues. The fact that he is hanging around at deadline makes me feel better about him as well (I suppose the same can be said of Glork and Pablito, although Pabs’ comments have disturbed me more than anything). I know I have trouble catching Thok-scum in the first place, but I’m thinking Thok is town.

Twomz

:
I still have not played in a game where Twomz is scum, and he is actually participating

more

than I am used to. I think this is a fairly welcome change, although he needs to learn to take things slower sometimes. Surprisingly, I haven’t found Twomz very scummy in this game at all. Hmm… wonder if that is a scumtell?

UberTimmy

:
WOW, what the hell. I honestly do not know how I have missed UT’s posts, that is absolutely bizarre. He has got away with saying practically

nothing

today, instead only voting. Jebus. I will definitely want to poke at him tomorrow, but there is absolutely no way I can get a read from those posts whatsoever.

Vaughn

:
I have to agree with Thok: Vaughn’s latest lurking is simply too reminiscent of Kingmaker I for me right now. I never found him exceptionally scummy today, but he should not be allowed to continue with his non-posting. He also seems to be trying (ever so carefully) to set me up for an execution later in the game, which makes me feel uneasy about him, but I think I would rather have him explain himself tomorrow than execute him today. Neutral-scummy, on account of the fact that I

know

from experience that he purposely lurks as scum, and may be doing the same thing this game.

Yosarian2

:
(Finally at the end, *phew*). In general, I find absolutely nothing wrong with his attack on MoS for refusing to vote, and in many ways, I whole-heartedly agree with him (I have discussed this in earlier posts). His posts seem pretty genuine in general, and he seems to be in absolutely the same boat as me in concerns to the Phoebus/MoS issue (i.e. thinking Phoebus is scummy, and not having a clue what MoS is trying to show through his defense of Phoebus). I’m thinking town.

Now to see if I can’t gather my thoughts.

[Glork]

YES!! I have achieved "I won't bother looking over these posts" status with PJ.


My life's work is complete.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm.

*goes to look over Glork's posts*

[Nightson]

I tend to lurk for awhile when games start or when I replace into them. Participation picks up over time and if people ask me questions. If I'm lurking too much feel free to call me on it and ask me to comment, I often don't even realize I'm doing it.

[petroleumjelly]

While you're here, Nightson, would you mind sharing your suspicions, please?

[Nightson]

While you're here, Nightson, would you mind sharing your suspicions, please?

Sure, I need to reread but I'm looking for excuses to avoid starting to work on my massive Economics homework >.<

[Nightson]

While you're here, Nightson, would you mind sharing your suspicions, please?

Sure, I need to reread but I'm looking for excuses to avoid starting to work on my massive Economics homework >.<

Bah, I lied, got seven pages in when someone just told me this Econ homework is going to take 3 hours. As it's 11:42 here I'll postpone this until tomorrow, but right now I'd still support a phoebus kill over the others. I'll make sure to comment on Rosso when I reread.

[petroleumjelly]

Oookay. Well, I just saw Nightson sign off, so I am going to guess I won' be hearing back about those suspicions anytime soon.

I doubt another fifteen minutes of thinking is going to change my mind at this point. Let's end this day.

Do not post after this post, in accordance to the rules.

Execute: Rosso Carne

[BrianMcQueso]

Rosso Carne

has been executed. He was an ordinary Townie. King petroleumjelly steps down from the throne.

I need two night choices: the assassins', and the Kingmaker's. Remember, Kingmaker, that I need two names from you. I'll be working on prodding inactives in the meantime.

And a thanks from the royal staff for adhering to the "no talk after execution" rule.