Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Phoebus]

*waits for the "why is MoS so rabid about Phoebus" questioning to begin*

Yos - was that for not posting? or was that vote for not posting = scummy?

[Yosarian2]

Eh...with the deadline coming up, I figured I should vote for the person on the execution list I felt most suspicious of. I honestly don't have a very strong suspicion on anyone at this point, but out of the 4 people the king said he's thinking about executing, you're at the top of my list.

Basically, like I said in an earlier post, my general impression so far is that you've been mostly :nothelpfull:, and the one time you did contribute content it was to shamlessly bandwagon without good reasons.

[Mert]

From the LoE that PJ posted, I would favour a Phoebus lynch. He really has been at best unhelpful and has not really responded well to criticism for this. The only slight problem is that his lynch won't give much information whatever his alignment due to the lack of substance to his posts.

After that, bird1111 is obviously next on my list. Again, not much content and strange voting toward the beginning. Not as behind his lynch as I would be Phoebus, but I would be happy with it either way.

Pab would go above CDB on my list of preference because of his weird posting throughout but I'm not sure he's scum so much as just acting a bit weird. I wouldn't be

un

happy with his execution at this point, but he'd definitley be behind the other two.

To answer Glork's earlier question, I must say that there's nobody else I'm going to vote for at this point in time. There are a couple of people I've made a note to look at in more depth tomorrow, but for today I'm going to keep things where they are.

[cardb0ardb0x]

Thanks for the explanation pablito. I'm too tired to really contribute anything at the moment, I'll try and read & give my analysis before the end of the day. Lol, I've got to learn to stop putting wierd ideas out there (blah blah blah, maybe a mafia forgot there were no masons, blah blah blah)- this isn't a brainstorm. Anyways, I'll post something with substance later today.

[spectrumvoid]

I don't get MOS reasons for 'clearing' Phoebus. He says Phoebus has played differently in other games when he's scum or town... We aren't saying Phoebus is scummy because of his difference in playstyle compared to his other games.

Also, MOS sounds like he's accusing random people. Again, giving a crap reason, 'gut'.

I went back as promised. I think bird and Phoebus are currently tied... both are unhelpful, the only thing is I don't like Phoebus's responses too.

[Phoebus]

hrm. lack of participation, lack of posting = not helpful.

lack of vociferousness, lack of scumtells = not scum?

would you be prepared to say that only because I'm not helpful today would mean that I shall be that way all days? would you go as far as making that assumption? or is it just a case of, rather Phoebus than anyone else? or is it a case of, whoever it is, don't matter to me...might as well go for someone on the "LoE"?

[Twomz]

Hey MoS, sorry I didn't respond to your suspicions of me sooner, if i'd had votes on me i might have .

But yeah, i'm accused of "lying low"? Well, i don't really have that much to contribute right now... and I've been raiding ZG for 5 hours straight everynight (no phat lewt yet) so my normal mafiascum time has been restricted, although i'm trying to keep up w/ my games, i'm not really doing anything indepth yet, especially not in games that are still on Day 1 XD.

[Mastermind of Sin]

<3 Phoebus. This is exactly why he shouldn't be executed today. Look at the way he's posting. It has obvious marks of a protown person who was prepared to play this way, at least for Day 1. I would know because I've done it before.

[Yosarian2]

hrm. lack of participation, lack of posting = not helpful.

lack of vociferousness, lack of scumtells = not scum?

would you be prepared to say that only because I'm not helpful today would mean that I shall be that way all days? would you go as far as making that assumption? or is it just a case of, rather Phoebus than anyone else? or is it a case of, whoever it is, don't matter to me...might as well go for someone on the "LoE"?

Being "not helpful" is a minor scumtell in and of itself; I would inherently expect a good guy to be trying harder to help the town and find scum then I would expect a scum to. And besides, it's in the town's best interest to encourage pro-town behavior, and one way to do that is to lynch people who are not doing pro-town behavior.

Basically, if I can't find any good scum tells, I start looking for pro-town tells (things that make me thing a certain person is more likey then not to be town), and then lynch someone who hasn't made any pro-town tells.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't get MOS reasons for 'clearing' Phoebus. He says Phoebus has played differently in other games when he's scum or town... We aren't saying Phoebus is scummy because of his difference in playstyle compared to his other games.

Also, MOS sounds like he's accusing random people. Again, giving a crap reason, 'gut'.

I went back as promised. I think bird and Phoebus are currently tied... both are unhelpful, the only thing is I don't like Phoebus's responses too.

Then why are you saying Phoebus is scummy, if not because his playstyle is wierd?

"gut" is NOT a crap reason. Gut is not a reason at all. It is merely an announcement that you don't have hard factual reasons for someone to be scum, but you still have this feeling that they are probably scum, so instead of searching for crap reasons to justify it, you admit it by saying it's a gut feeling, because

that's what it really is

. It's not a crap reason at all.

[petroleumjelly]

Oh, thank goodness, at least I have three more days to think about this. I'm pretty busy tonight, so I can't post much...

MoS, could you please explain what makes you think Phoebus is town? I don't recall ever having played with Phoebus, and I frankly cannot set aside time to look over all of his games to determine his 'normal playstyle'. I only vaguely recall one game I have read with him in it (Gotham City) where he was generally unhelpful (until it came time to lynch the unnightkillable townie), and pressed people almost primarily on 'scum-tells'. He was scum in that game, and I am really not seeing what differentiates his play in this game from that game (granted, I have not read Gotham City for quite a while, so my memory may be skewed).

My main bone with Phoebus is that his "gut votes" just happened to be done while hopping on the largest bandwagons. Gut votes, in my experience, are often used to strike out in an odd direction (such as, if I were to vote somebody who has not been under much suspicion [say, Thok] on the basis of 'gut'). Gut votes which simply add to somebody who has already been suspicious (and against people who

already

have cases presented against them) do not sit with me, especially when the same person does it on

four people

. I am more than willing to consider what you are saying, but I am going to need more basis than "I will regret it" and "he is always unhelpful" (severely paraphrased).

[spectrumvoid]

I don't get MOS reasons for 'clearing' Phoebus. He says Phoebus has played differently in other games when he's scum or town... We aren't saying Phoebus is scummy because of

his difference in playstyle compared to his other games.

Then why are you saying Phoebus is scummy, if not because his playstyle is wierd?

I'm saying he isn't scummy due to his DIFFERENCE in playstyle compared to other games (in response to what you said about his playing differently in other games), I'm saying he looks scummy due to his style in THIS ONE. With that said, I don't even know if he's unhelpfulness etc. is a playstyle... I read it as a scum-tell

I stand by point that 'gut' is a bad reason. You should have good reasons for voting someone. If it's just a feeling thing, you should explain what gives you the feeling. Also what PJ said, Phoebus's gut just so happened to point him to the wagon. In this case, gut sounds like an excuse to vote.

[Thok]

I will say that MOS's actions don't really make sense to me if both MOS and Phoebus are scum together (I think MOS would let Phoebus hang out to dry in that scenario). MOS's play fits best with me if Phoebus is protown and MOS is scum (in which case MOS is buddying up with somebody he knows in protown but is likely to be lynched anyways), although I could see the alternatives being possible.

@PJ-I played with Phoebus in Mini's 205 and 232 where he was protown both times. I remember him being more active the early part of 232, but then being a lot more lurky/disinterested at the end of 232. I've suppressed memories of mini 205, so you'd need to read that one on your own.

That said, this close to deadline I should clean up my votes to reflect who I think would be the best/most useful execution, so I will

unvote pablito, bird, Dead Rimikaru and Nightson

, leaving Vaughn and Ameliaslay on my set of votes, and then add a

vote MOS

, given his recent activities.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I stand by point that 'gut' is a bad reason. You should have good reasons for voting someone.

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Oh, thank goodness, at least I have three more days to think about this. I'm pretty busy tonight, so I can't post much...

MoS, could you please explain what makes you think Phoebus is town? I don't recall ever having played with Phoebus, and I frankly cannot set aside time to look over all of his games to determine his 'normal playstyle'. I only vaguely recall one game I have read with him in it (Gotham City) where he was generally unhelpful (until it came time to lynch the unnightkillable townie), and pressed people almost primarily on 'scum-tells'. He was scum in that game, and I am really not seeing what differentiates his play in this game from that game (granted, I have not read Gotham City for quite a while, so my memory may be skewed).

My main bone with Phoebus is that his "gut votes" just happened to be done while hopping on the largest bandwagons. Gut votes, in my experience, are often used to strike out in an odd direction (such as, if I were to vote somebody who has not been under much suspicion [say, Thok] on the basis of 'gut'). Gut votes which simply add to somebody who has already been suspicious (and against people who

already

have cases presented against them) do not sit with me, especially when the same person does it on

four people

. I am more than willing to consider what you are saying, but I am going to need more basis than "I will regret it" and "he is always unhelpful" (severely paraphrased).

I think his play is this game is generally different from his play as both scum and town. By itself, i think that his play shows that he's a protown player who doesn't particularly want to think much on Day 1, but came into the game knowing the kind of responses he'd get to that kind of play. That's what I've read out of his responses.

Also, even Thok said Phoebus is probably protown, so you shouldn't execute him.

[spectrumvoid]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

[CrashTextDummie]

I've skimmed through the thread (long 12 hours, I know...), and the most scummy person on the LoE is bird1111. He has been under fire for a long time, yet he never felt the need to really respond to the accusations against him. Scum shouldn't be allowed to do this just because they can't be pressured via bandwagons, and therefore I think that our mighty king should present him with an ultimatum.

Pablito has confused me entirely with his play, enough so that I don't think he should be killed anymore.

Unvote: pablito

Another person who stood out to me during my quick reread is ubertimmy. Just check out his isolated posts and you'll see what's wrong with him. If we can't get it done today, I would like to see some pressure on him tomorrow.

Vote: ubertimmy

I'll try to do a propper and thorough readthrough and will post a longish post before the deadline hits.

[Glork]

Unvote Everyone

Back a little earlier than expected. Re-read coming in the next couple of hours.

[Nightson]

Pablito has confused me entirely with his play, enough so that I don't think he should be killed anymore.

Unvote: pablito

Being confusing = protown?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I'm not voting anyone, am I?

Hey, his wording, not mine

[Mastermind of Sin]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

[Thok]

Why 'even Thok'?

Sorry about that, I meant to say you need good reasons for accusing someone. (My defence: vote counts are so confusing this game... I went by tone of posts instead of vote numbers )

Well, yes, his play could be different. But different play does not = scum or = town, it's just a matter of playstyle, not alignment.

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

I didn't say that Phoebus's play suggests that he is protown; I said that the interaction of his play with yours suggests that it's not the case that both of you are scum. I am not ready yet to rule out the case that your scumdar is just off.

[Thok]

EBWODP "I am not ready yet to rule out the case where you are a townie, and that your scumdar is just off".

[Yosarian2]

That's exactly my point. the fact that he's playing differently does not in and of itself point towards a particular alignment, but if you look at the particular playstyle he's using, while it may not be optimal protown play, there are earmarks here and there that point to him being protown, as I've already pointed out.

Could you be a little more clear on that? What has he done, exactally, that makes you think he's pro-town?