Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[StallingChamp]

checking in and reading thread. at page 3 now, ill post when i finish (at some point tonight)

[Twito]

Vote: Zindaras

coz I want cop revived.

By the way, if we do have a doc, it might be a good idea to claim now, then the cop can check you out and we can revive you on day 2, to make sure the cop stays alive.

I'm doc and I request to be investigated.

[StallingChamp]

I have to go for now, so I skimmed most of it, and so i will Vote: Zindras to revive the cop.

As for others, I think that M4hem seems rather pro-town to me.

I'll post more later tonight.

[StallingChamp]

EBWODB:

Vote: Zindras

[Twito]

Oh yeah and if we have other cops counter claims now please.. ya know incase 1 of the 2 revived so far is mafia the best thing for other mafia members to do right now is try to claim good power role and hope to be revived.

[Thoth]

I'd suggest as well that we wait until everyone has posted and there are no counterclaims. If we've already got 1 scum alive we don't want to be tricked here.

[StallingChamp]

I'm not claiming anything, but should any other power roles come out now or sit passivly for the time being?

Just so we don't get any unnecessary claims that we don't want from other power roles.

[Tamuz]

Oh yeah and if we have other cops counter claims now please.. ya know incase 1 of the 2 revived so far is mafia the best thing for other mafia members to do right now is try to claim good power role and hope to be revived.

You mean like you just did with your doctor claim?

I'm not wholly opposed to the Zindaras revival it seems to match Mr. C in retrospect, but remember we have no assurance of his sanity, or if we even have a cop, that is alot of trust and alot of power put into his hands.

[chaotic_diablo]

Know how really quick bandwagons in normal Mafias (and yes, I do consider this a quick bandwagon, especially on this site) are usually bad and scum-driven? Same goes for this game, except that here, scum wants to drive themselves.

So they're scum for rushing a bandwagon? How is my vote any different?

[qoute="Zindaras"]Well, if that's the points you want to make, I can't argue with them[/quote] The point is supported by the one below it.

Read more. I quoted the post where Alko voted Thoth, as well, saying it was scummy. You, however, said you were okay with reviving Thoth, there, without stating any reasons.

Excellent point. I get the blame for

both

mentioning and voting Thoth while Al_ko has a pass for bringing it up without logic.

[qoute="Zindaras"]A self-vote without reasoning is scummy because there's no reason behind it. It's simply an attempt to start a bandwagon on yourself. [/quote] Crap logic. You can't apply reasoning to a vote that you already claimed to have no reasoning. In addition, you're using crap logic when you attempt to guess and fabricate my motives. I didn't vote to start a bandwagon, I voted in spirit of the early random vote staging. If anyone should be accused for self-voting without reason, it would be Mr.C, no hindsight included.
The sentence I was referring to was in post 288. You quoted it, then twisted it to apply to an action that is barely even related to it.

I'm skeptical about your cop claim. I can't argue that you're not a cop, but I just want to bring something up. If we revive you, then you get to investigate people in limbo. However, that sounds really broken since it would mean scum would have no chance in being revived. You investigate during the night, then the live players just revive that person. It comes to night again. You investigate, revive, repeat. Isn't there something that limits your role? Even if we assume that the godfather is immune to investigation, the odds are still in town's favor.

[ChannelDelibird]

The First-On-This-Page Vote Count:

Zindaras- 6 (CrashTextDummie, Zindaras, M4yhem, Yosarian2, Twito, StallingChamp)

Not voting [8]: Tamuz, themanhimself, chaotic_diablo, al_kohaulec, Thoth, lordy

7 to revive. A Yosarian2 or Tamuz vote is a vote for squat.

[al_kohaulec]

huh, my vote was removed and I don't remember unvoting, maybe I did.

Anyways I believe the claim, Mr. C was my best choice for being cop, but I wanted to be more sure of him before reviving him, and also make sure that he would actually help us.

I'll wait until it's confirmed there are no other cop claims before reviving though. IMO the doc and RB are the best investigation targets right now, a confirmed doc can guarantee the cop's life will succeed for a while, and then the RB can stall the mafia a bit if one is alive already.

[M4yhem]

Yos- It's not anti-town advice, it's anti-you advice, as I'm sure you guessed. I think making sure the people already revived are not scum is quite important, since they are the ones which will be doing the killing. Not to mention that we now have three good choices for the next revival. ( two so-far uncontested power roles, and the obviously pro-town M4yhem.) So on the whole, I'd rather be sure about your alignment, so that we can block/vig you if necessary, and take a chance on the revivals as we have been doing.

Zindaras- It is, of course, your choice. I can see the benefit of your plan as well.

Welcome, StallingChamp!
I would say it’s up to the individual power-roles if they want to claim. There’s no risk to them while they are in limbo, but it paints a targets on them for later. Personally I think that the quicker we all claim, the harder it is for scum to blend in. But opinions differ.

C_D- Aww, you poor scum. My heart is breaking for you. But can’t you wait until you’ve officially lost before complaining that the setup is broken?

Of course we can’t rely completely on the cop results, but it’s a good place to start. And I think that in a game like this, where the town’s early choices are kinda crucial, a godfather and perhaps a miller would be more than enough to balance it.

Fos: all those not voting Zindaras right now

Unvote,

to wait for Lordy (Hurry up, Lordy) and because I want to hammer.

[M4yhem]

Alky- I just checked your posts and you never voted for Zindaras at all. Now might be a good time?

[al_kohaulec]

No, I'm waiting to make sure there are no counterclaims. Being safe FTW?

[al_kohaulec]

Lordy and CrashTextDummy are the last two that we need to hear from.

[al_kohaulec]

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

[al_kohaulec]

...still don't have much time.

I think most of the main idea is out there, if I didn't explain the reasoning enough, some thought should be able to figure it out.

As for revivals after the RB and Doc, I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

I think that's most of what I needed to say, now I'll wait for the other two players to check in, and see what everybody's thoughts are on most of this.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- It's not anti-town advice, it's anti-you advice, as I'm sure you guessed. I think making sure the people already revived are not scum is quite important, since they are the ones which will be doing the killing.

Yes, it will be good to know the alignment of the people already revived. But the plan was to use a limbo cop in order to find people we have to revive.

If the cop finds a scum in limbo, then we can simply never revive that person, which is almost as good as a dead scum. If a cop finds a good guy in limbo, then we revive them. Both are quite useful results for the town.

If a cop finds a confirmed innocent that's alive, however, it dosn't help the town very much, other then giving us something to look at with voting records and such. It would basically be a waste of an investigation.

It would be useful to find a scum that was alive, of course, but at this point there's no reason to think there is one, and we can also use the roleblocker as a quasi-investigator of the alive without having to waste a cop investigation.

At this point, I've got a good feeling about Tomez, so my guess would be that we're going to have 3 good guys alive on day 1, in which case we just have to find 2 more good guys and revive them and we win; so long as we can avoid godfathers and have no sanity problems, we should have this one in the bag. And if by some chance Zindaras is insane, I think we'll figure that out pretty quick, as I can't picture Twito claiming at the point when he did unless he expected the cop investigation to come up on him as innocent. (IE: my guess is Twito is probably telling the truth, could theoretically be a godfather, but is probably not "vanillia" scum).

I could be wrong about Tomez being good, of course, but if I am we'll probably figure it out soon enough, and if the doc and the roleblocker are telling the truth, we should be able to deal with it without losing our cop.

[chaotic_diablo]

C_D- Aww, you poor scum. My heart is breaking for you. But can’t you wait until you’ve officially lost before complaining that the setup is broken?

You know what? I'll feel much better knowing that you're a jackass when I turn up town. Even better is that I'll officially call you a jackass if you turn up scum.
If you claim that scum have already lost, then the setup is broken. Is the opportunity to insure a town win too good to pass up? As good as the role sounds, it isn't wise to revive someone who isn't here to vouch for his own revival. I feel like he just told us something good, then went up and left, leaving us with no opportunity to question him. The way I see it, people are already filled the blanks about his role themselves. Why should they do it? Let Zindaras do it himself.

A miller and godfather won't balance the game. Scum already have a handicap, so I don't see how this is a solution. If we can't rely completely on a cop investigation, then obviously we must make sure that the cop is the right choice. We have all the time we want, why rush it? We've already rushed one bandwagon, let's not make the same mistake twice.

[M4yhem]

Al- So now you want to be safe, but you didn't mind rushing to revive Yos, even though I urged caution? And Crash has already voted. TheManHimself won't counterclaim unless he's crazy, so lordy is all we need.

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

I don’t get it. Why not just investigate Twito, if we plan to revive him first? I’d rather lose the doc early than the cop. And you forget that the scum get enabled to kill at different times, so being blocked once doesn’t tell us much, even if there is no kill.

. I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

Yeah, cause if I was godfather, I would totally bring it up when no one else had mentioned it. I’m glad you underestimate my intelligence so greatly; if you are scum, it makes it that much easier for me to beat you.
And you don’t want to be investigated yourself? Not a miller by any chance, are you? Oooo, suspicious.

Since everybody is suggesting plans, I’d like to suggest TheManHimself is investigated tonight, and that he then blocks Yosarian for all eternity.

C_D, my friend, you won’t ever be able to call me a jackass, because I’m all town, baby! And why on earth does me calling you scum upset you so, Mr. Scummy scummy scum scum? I would have thought an innocent man would just ignore me.

And I don’t really think the scum have already lost. Channel is a smart guy, therefore the setup is balanced. I still don’t see why that means we shouldn’t revive the cop.

I already think Zindaras is the right choice. He acts like a cop. I suppose I will have to wait for the rest of you though.

Also: “Scum already have a handicap.” What are you referring to here?

Vote: Zindaras

Most fantastic of Mods

, may we please have a prod on Lordy, if you deem it necessary? A thousand thank yous.

[ChannelDelibird]

lordy was prodded a week ago and posted, but I shall prod him again.

[al_kohaulec]

Yay, the first response to my plan.

Al- So now you want to be safe, but you didn't mind rushing to revive Yos, even though I urged caution? And Crash has already voted. TheManHimself won't counterclaim unless he's crazy, so lordy is all we need.

Crash has already voted, but he never said anything since his claim. So his vote is meaningless in regards to whether Crash could be cop or not. I doubt Crash being cop, but I want to be sure.

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

I don’t get it. Why not just investigate Twito, if we plan to revive him first? I’d rather lose the doc early than the cop. And you forget that the scum get enabled to kill at different times, so being blocked once doesn’t tell us much, even if there is no kill.

This is why I want feedback on the whole plan. I'm assuming that if he's our only doctor claim, he is more than likely the true doctor. I don't see him being scum and then killing off our cop as a viable possibility, but I like looking at everything that's possible, and should the cop die when the doc is revived, the only possible reason I can think of short of the doctor is scum is there's a revived mafia roleblocker.

Then we'll also have a heads up on who we're going to be reviving. N1, we investigate playerA. D1 or 2 or whatever, we revive Twito. N2 we investigate playerB. Now when we have an option to revive somebody, we have two innocents to choose from. Should we end up to the point where we investigate a scum. Obv we won't want to revive him, but we'll still have one townie investigation to revive. Continuing through investigations, if we find a second scum, then we know two players we don't want to revive, and the last scum will just be guesswork on who we want to revive, if he hasn't already been revived.

As for the roleblocker, I believe I posted 3 different possible cases for the roleblocker. we won't know if scum can kill on N2 or later, but we know they can't kill on N1. But we'll have two players alive that we aren't sure of the alignment on, but we will know that at least one of them is guaranteed town (otherwise we would've lost by D1). If we block one of the players, and there is a kill on somebody, then the other player is our scum. If there's no kill, we still don't know anything more about whether they're scum or not, but I don't think there's any other townie roles we'll need to be using beyond the RB, cop, and doc, so a block on them won't hurt. It will be playing it safe.

. I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

Yeah, cause if I was godfather, I would totally bring it up when no one else had mentioned it. I’m glad you underestimate my intelligence so greatly; if you are scum, it makes it that much easier for me to beat you.
And you don’t want to be investigated yourself? Not a miller by any chance, are you? Oooo, suspicious.

I don't remember who brought it up at first, but that's besides the point. I don't see how that underestimates anybody's intelligence, you're just overreacting there. I don't care if I'm investigated or not, but since Zindie is the cop, we need to investigate who we think is most likely to be pro town, and Zindie doesn't trust me, I'm not one of his better options. If I was a miller, I'd still be protown, so that's besides the point. But no, I'm not a miller. If I get investigated as scum, I won't get revived, if I don't get investigated, I shouldn't be revived as long as there's a townie result, which should be the case almost every day.

It would probably be best if any millers claimed now beforehand, so it won't come to any surprise later.

[Yosarian2]

Al- So now you want to be safe, but you didn't mind rushing to revive Yos, even though I urged caution?

Ummm...but you cast the last vote to revive me.

I don’t get it. Why not just investigate Twito, if we plan to revive him first? I’d rather lose the doc early than the cop. And you forget that the scum get enabled to kill at different times, so being blocked once doesn’t tell us much, even if there is no kill.

Agreed. The goal should be to only revive people we've investigated from now on.

Since everybody is suggesting plans, I’d like to suggest TheManHimself is investigated tonight, and that he then blocks Yosarian for all eternity.

(shrug) Well, it's be better to revive the doc first, because that should ensure the cop stays alive for a while at least, while a roleblocker would only have a chance at stopping any kill. But once the roleblocker is revived, sure, I'd expect him to block either me or Tamuz.

[chaotic_diablo]

C_D, my friend, you won’t ever be able to call me a jackass, because I’m all town, baby! And why on earth does me calling you scum upset you so, Mr. Scummy scummy scum scum? I would have thought an innocent man would just ignore me.

You've been implying lots of crap about how I'm scum, yet haven't provided a single shred of evidence. About the only thing you got was the exact same thing as Zindaras, and you even downplayed those clues. I've already been ignoring you for quite a while on that regard, but I'm afraid your last comment was pretty much just an insult. If you're going to end up provoking someone, don't question why he's "aggressive."
If you do turn up scum, then I'll get my wish yet. We're just have to see if the title is well-deserved or not.

And I don’t really think the scum have already lost. Channel is a smart guy, therefore the setup is balanced. I still don’t see why that means we shouldn’t revive the cop.

I already think Zindaras is the right choice. He acts like a cop. I suppose I will have to wait for the rest of you though.

Also: “Scum already have a handicap.” What are you referring to here?

Usually, I would agree that the set-up would be balanced in some way. However, we don't know how. Therefore, I'd like to have a direct source tell us first before we revive him. This might include a possible delay in his investigation or a sanity problem. I don't care what it is, but there has to be a catch and I'd like to know beforehand.
Intricate plans are made with sufficient information, not with little bits of scrap iron. That's why they are more effective end-game, it's because all the information has been revealed. The way I see it, it's too premature and I think they will all backfire sooner or later.

'Scum already have a handicap' refers to the delay in which they can kill. I can't honestly see any other benefits for scum other than prevention of identification. Like town, a no lynch would harm them, so I don't see how a no kill will help scum either.

I'd say the biggest issue as of right now is the part where people are directing the cop. It would be better to convince Zindaras to take the course of action, not tell him what to do.

[Zindaras]

So they're scum for rushing a bandwagon? How is my vote any different?

Your vote is not different. It is simply part of a sum of actions that are, in my eyes, scummy.

Excellent point. I get the blame for

both

mentioning and voting Thoth while Al_ko has a pass for bringing it up without logic.

Alko's the one who added logic.

Crap logic. You can't apply reasoning to a vote that you already claimed to have no reasoning. In addition, you're using crap logic when you attempt to guess and fabricate my motives. I didn't vote to start a bandwagon, I voted in spirit of the early random vote staging. If anyone should be accused for self-voting without reason, it would be Mr.C, no hindsight included.

Yes, I attempt to guess and fabricate your motives. That is the way I play Mafia. Behaviour may differentiate scum from town, but motives do that on a far greater scale.

Also, about Mr. C: For him, the move and reasoning behind it was obvious. He was the Cop.

This is exactly why I like to make a difference between motives and behaviour. Mr. C and you displayed the same behaviour, but in my eyes for different motives.

The sentence I was referring to was in post 288. You quoted it, then twisted it to apply to an action that is barely even related to it.

Ah. I see. I view self-voting as bad. You should not try to get revived by placing votes upon yourself, but by reasoning.

I'm skeptical about your cop claim. I can't argue that you're not a cop, but I just want to bring something up. If we revive you, then you get to investigate people in limbo. However, that sounds really broken since it would mean scum would have no chance in being revived. You investigate during the night, then the live players just revive that person. It comes to night again. You investigate, revive, repeat. Isn't there something that limits your role? Even if we assume that the godfather is immune to investigation, the odds are still in town's favor.

Yes, I've been wondering about the borkenness of my role. There are no clues whatsoever to any sanity problems in my PM. I've got a few theories, but I'll reveal those later (or even in this post).

Actually, I have a really good plan right now, please refrain from reviving the cop until I say it (if i have time, I'll say it all in this post).


We revive the cop, we go into night.

Investigate the roleblocker, see if he's really town or not. Revive the doc, if there's a cop death, the doc is scum and needs to be lynched. Otherwise assuming we get town on the RB, we revive him next, so we'll have a living RB and a doc protecting the cop. The RB will tell us which of the two unkown revived players he chooses to target, if there's a death, the other person must be scum. If there's no death, either we have no scum revived, they chose not to kill, or we blocked the one that is scum. This should prevent...

We revive a not-investigated player?

As for revivals after the RB and Doc, I would suggest investigating somebody other than M4yhem, he has started looking better in my eyes since the game first started, but if a godfather exists, he is my prime suspect for being a godfather.

I will investigate whoever I want to investigate, thankyouverymuch.

I'm okay with suggestions on which roles to investigate, but not with which players.

For obvious reasons (cause they'll be who we want to revive), I think we should investigate players we think to be protown, to prove they're protown before we revive them, I believe we mentioned this before. I know Zindaras thinks I'm untrustworthy, but since I don't need to be alive to win, I don't mind not being investigated and not being revived. I say we should try to investigate most likely protownies in limbo because it's when we investigate a mafiate that deciding who to revive could get complicated.

But in the previous post you wanted to revive the doc without an investigation...

You know what? I'll feel much better knowing that you're a jackass when I turn up town. Even better is that I'll officially call you a jackass if you turn up scum.

Relax, man (goes for M4yhem as well). There's no reason to get personal.

If you claim that scum have already lost, then the setup is broken. Is the opportunity to insure a town win too good to pass up? As good as the role sounds, it isn't wise to revive someone who isn't here to vouch for his own revival. I feel like he just told us something good, then went up and left, leaving us with no opportunity to question him. The way I see it, people are already filled the blanks about his role themselves. Why should they do it? Let Zindaras do it himself.

I like this point of view. Let my point out why I claimed. I claimed because I didn't want to come back and see someone else revived.

A miller and godfather won't balance the game. Scum already have a handicap, so I don't see how this is a solution. If we can't rely completely on a cop investigation, then obviously we must make sure that the cop is the right choice. We have all the time we want, why rush it? We've already rushed one bandwagon, let's not make the same mistake twice.

Why would the Cop not be the best choice?

I've made up my own plan, and I will follow it.