NY 160B - Welcome to Castle Zar - TIME FOR FIREWORKS!

[Baby Spice]

Stealing time while resting my back

Mehdi2277 (6): SnowStorm, Vi, Johhog, Tammy, roflcopter, Ser Arthur Dayne

I really wanted to have a look at this wagon, so I'm stealing a little time.

Snowstorm vote and later explanation seem reasonable.

Vi's vote seems to be because Medhi takes the game far too seriously at the start, and he doesn't mention Medhi again.

Joh, terribad vote and post with it. OMGUS with attitude. Insults (a personal pet peeve of mine), and strong focus on the weakest reason of Medhi's vote. But I've addresses this more earlier.

Tammy. Actually Tammy's #123 is the reason I wanted to do this.
I find it strange that Tammy calls Johog town for an action that is scummy. I find it hard to believe that she could actually miss the point being made by Mehdi, let alone question why I would point out a scummy action used as the basis for a vote on a player that appears town. Then she takes the cake for complaining about Medhi daring to scum hunt. Then calls OMGUSing, Johogs's vote, a good reason to vote.



Oh, and Tammy:

And the fact is, it's not scummy to vote someone without reasoning,

It is scummy. It's not nice to have a reason and not give it as it leaves the way for scum to vote without a reason then make something up later, but to actually vote without reason past the RVS is scummy.

ROFL appears to vote Medhi for Medi's pressuring people that ROFL thinks are town. Beginning to disagree with the Tammy read but you can't fault ROFL's reasons.

Ser Arthur. No reason given, no reason aparent. None. Admits to voting without actually reading what has happened (#151), admits that every read is based on an assumption that Medhi is scum, but is still to give an actual reason why he thinks Medhi is scum.

and took so long writing that there's like twenty ninja posts

[DeasVail]

Why aren't you trying to convince people that Mehdi is town? (I'm assuming you think he is)

[Baby Spice]

A. Why is it a weak reason? I'd say it's an unusually strong reason for page two. Empire knew that NS is considered an easy target. His vote came right after an awkward NS post. He saw his chance to start a wagon. You obviously disagree, but why do you disagree?

Was that so hard?

[Vi]

Trying this question again...
Empire, why should I believe you're Town?

[Baby Spice]

Why aren't you trying to convince people that Mehdi is town? (I'm assuming you think he is)

Context is a good thing you know DV.
For those not understanding why, try reading ISo's where someone continuously refers to the post above them and does not use names or quotes.

The biggest thing that Medhi has done/is doing that screams town to me is that he's engaging just about everyone. He's not trying to limit his exposure, he's putting his opinions out there with no qualifiers.
He's given his reasons. People might not agree with them but he's given them, and those reasons are not utter crap.

[Empire]

Trying this question again...
Empire, why should I believe you're Town?

Off the top of my head, two reasons:
1) Because you've played with/modded me as both alignments and it should be pretty plain for you to see that I'm town this game.
2) Because I feel like I've been pretty transparent with everything, especially my reasoning and the way I've shown my work, once I got the ball rolling (see above).

...actually, turn that question around. Why should I believe

you're

town this game? Frankly, you're not giving me the same vibes you did in Micro 53 where I was able to read you as town fairly quickly/easily and it's weirding me out.

[Empire]

EBWOP: Should be Micro 59, not 53, sorry.

[Vi]

Trying this question again...
Empire, why should I believe you're Town?

Off the top of my head, two reasons:
1) Because you've played with/modded me as both alignments and it should be pretty plain for you to see that I'm town this game.
2) Because I feel like I've been pretty transparent with everything, especially my reasoning and the way I've shown my work, once I got the ball rolling (see above).

...actually, turn that question around. Why should I believe

you're

town this game? Frankly, you're not giving me the same vibes you did in Micro 53 where I was able to read you as town fairly quickly/easily and it's weirding me out.

You have some idea of my meta (although really, the pitch you threw to MoI about it was a total slowball).
A lot of people here have a better idea of your meta.
Understand?

In the meantime, Wetfox is completely correct in his (initial) thoughts about you in 274.

Medhi is Today's lynch. You're welcome to make your vote less throwaway anytime now.

[Empire]

...

Ok fine, you win, you're town.

(Not going to switch to Mehdi yet though as I still want to check NS's meta and we still have some time.)

[Mehdi2277]

I'll comment longer when I'm home, but you do realize Tammy part of the argument was anyone experienced is unlikely to do it if they don't usually. I remember Moi doing it in marketplace mafia. I also remember reg saying it is part of his town meta and is a town tell. And I remember that I've rarely if ever pushed people with that reasoning in mind. This reason wasn't applicable before since I didn't what emp had read but I don't see him trying to mislynch NS when another scum tried and failed badly at it recently in a game he read.

[ArcAngel9]

What was the question you asked everyone?

next time, either name or quote to ask question becuase otherwise it ll be hard to see who your question directs too.
It was general question for everyone who they currently think most scummiest person in living.

For instance...you can get a good idea for the answer to this question by looking at the vote counts as people re generally voting the person they think is scummy. The question you asked is bad for a couple of reasons and isn't going to really get you answers. One it looks like you're trying o look busy when you're not really being proactive. Second this isn't going to be met favorably because asking this of everyone looks like you're trying to figure out who it's okay to suspect because it's not you voicing any of your thoughts.

How do even make statementsl ike i am not being proactive, you don't even know what my suspects and views about each one properly.
This is Mafia, a place i can ask, accuse, argue with players around me. so, don't tell me what not to do. Being a townie I would expect my town to find me and its important to act as team. you can't on your win get the town win. so my attempt was to see how many people have common opinion it is an effort to see who the most scummy but it doesn't change what my opinion one each one based on observation, but it is not always safe depend on self opinons becuase the rest town may have information than i do and i am trying to get what i need to identifiy mafia.

[Mehdi2277]

Oh and deas I think it's a dumb reason and would mean I get policy lynched every game when a person is readable without it.

[ArcAngel9]

Trying this question again...
Empire, why should I believe you're Town?

Hello, What exactly your reasons for being townie?

[Zar]

There are many eerie stories to be told about the Castle Crypts. It was pressumed that Prince mykonian had his direct family buried alive with him, believing that he would continue as a ruler in the afterlife.

Day 1, Votecount 9

Mehdi2277 (6): SnowStorm, Vi, Johhog, Tammy, roflcopter, Ser Arthur Dayne

Johhog (2): Mehdi2277, Baby Spice
Nobody Special (2): Empire, Konowa
Vi (2): DeasVail, ArcAngel9
Empire (1): MagnaOfIllusion
Konowa (1): Nobody Special

Not Voting (1):

Kingmaker

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline

: Friday, December 21st, 2012 1:00 PM New York Time. (GMT-5) (End of the Mayan Calendar! )

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-12-21 13:00:00)

[Zar]

Prodding Kingmaker

[Konowa]

Forgot about the short deadlines in this game. Stating intent to put him at L-1.

Why haven't you done this already.

No reason.

unvote;
Vote: Mehdi

[Konowa]

In case context doesn't imply, L-1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i know, like said i haven't crossed my ways with all the players yet. we have this day phase going until the Friday. so i am not rushing in voting yet.

Here’s a bit of site meta for you to consider – MS in general regards withholding of votes til deadline to be at best anti-Town and with a scum-tell with enough players that it will get you heat regardless of whether it is your natural playstyle or not.

Also – when addressing Vi it is best to NOT capitalize the i. VI (both in caps) is shorthand for Village Idiot here on MS.

--

Add the word a between Vi and vig. And yes I think the fact he's pushing on it is bad since so far it just seems like complaining about someone annoying (if it was someone really scummy then why is Vi not voting her).

Disagree that saying AA is a good Vig shot doesn’t make sense. This is a Large game (yeah, on the smallish side but a Large). The more players in a game the more it makes sense Night 1 for any potential Vig to not go “Hero Mode” and instead Policy shoot. And the roster as it stands is very, very light on good Policy shots outside of AA.

Your next line in this very post (AA’s reads are light on any commitment) support this, actually.

@Mehdi

– given you stance on Empire’s wagon please analyze who you think is most likely scum on your current wagon (6 deep).

--

@Ser Arthur

– please link me to your common games with Vi. I need to see evidence that you think Vi’s playstyle (especially Day 1) is to be heavy-handed and rule the Town. Also why do you think Vi asking for the Vig to shoot AA was in any way not serious? It is a logical policy shot coming from Vi who understands that drawing a Vig role has a tendancy to make even the smartest player stupid (see EBHOBANWOOF).

Why do I have feeling that AA is a She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (for the sake of less confusion, BabyBlue) alt?

I now hate you for planting this seed in the back of my head.

I don’t think so … but …

I hate you.

--

holy overreaction batman. must have struck a nerve. now i know i'm right.

Interesting analysis. Funny, but interesting.

Why is medhi scum? Please articulate your reasons in at least a sentence that isn’t fluffy rhetoric.

--

Erm, thought I explained why in #112 but to elaborate a little more: when reading newer players,

I put more emphasis on tone than I usually do

. This is because, well, they're newbies - they often do dumb things and they often haven't developed their skill at scumhunting so a lot of the stuff about "passivity" is something I tend to see in newer players a lot. Hell, even if you've played elsewhere, you still need to get used to the site culture/meta (I know I spent months casually following ongoing games here before I even made an account).

Aha – now I see why I find you scummy – the bolded. I find tone to be a fluffy non-word that people use to justify reads that can’t otherwise be justified (aka more likely to come from scum than Town).

I also disagree completely with your “new players are passive” theory in that passivity is mostly a function of playstyle (I was damn active the second I joined MS and subsequently got Nightkilled in my first two games N1, meanwhile NS is an inactive lump of terrible-ness despite being on site for so long) and personality than ‘newbiness’.

- The Vi comment was basically me fucking around since he's a friend and one of the few people I talk to off-site so I just wanted to take a little jab at him. It wasn't meant to be any sort of reaction test which is why I never brought it up again.

Ok, I can see that as long as Vi doesn’t say “Screw that, I don’t know this joker IRL”.

- Over-explanation is what I do. The running joke is that I basically play like a version of Regfan and it's (embarrassingly) true. Here are some instances of me over-explaining stuff: Micro 34 (here and here, Micro 54 as a replace-in here, and Mini 1373 here and here (on my now discarded main, satire). Furthermore, given that we only have one week deadlines you better bet that I'm going to try and draw as much as I possibly can from each game day.

So if this your normal style I’m back to my original position – that I don’t see the reasons for your ‘Town clearing’ of AA to be logical and reasonable. I think it’s been put well that you are grasping for reasons to say AA is Town. Everything you put forth is either based on premises that are not valid (new players prefer Town and that in general new players all conform to behavior patterns when AA’s own posts refute that she should be considered inexperienced) or based solely on your own personal experiences (which apply to you not necessarily to others).

The only thing I think would be a strong Town tell for AA would be her constant antagonizing of Vi through calling him bad and saying VI instead of Vi. And even that is predicated on knowing it is stupid to do so as Scum which requires her to know Vi which apparently she does not.

- MoI, I asked you the question because my impression was that you still posted during your V/LAs, only less frequently (sorry for the mistake).

Sometimes I do. It depends on how much free time I have to myself which is very swingy. Currently with my daughter recovering from a broken wrist and holiday activities it is more constrained than usual.

Honestly, as against the grain as this is going to sound, I'm liking AA9 more for town.

1. How is this against the grain? I don’t recall anyone directly calling AA anything other than Newb Vigbait.
2. How exactly are you liking AA MORE for Town when Post 112 reads a pretty definitive?

[Kingmaker]

Sorry, had a few busy days. I skimmed the thread, will post more though in a few hours hopefully.

[SnowStorm]

I just don't like how it formed so quickly around the (bad) reason that you were being opportunistic.

So do you feel that going after ‘easy targets’ isn’t a scum-tell at all or do you simply disagree that Empire was not scummy in his suspicion of NS?

I think it was too early to judge Empire and his vote based on the fact that NS is an easy target. Actually, Johhog using that argument gave me some bad feelings about him. Easy targets can be scum too, so putting a first vote on an easy target isn't being opportunistic. Also, easy targets are easy for a reason, the mafia don't need to rush into trying to lynch them like that, because they'll get themselves in a possible lynch position sooner or later. As for Empire's reason, I don't remember thinking it was bad, at least for the beginning of the game when we were just getting started.

You realize you're adding to point 3. I don't think you're dumb enough to make reasons and why you suspect me different. Those are the reasons I suspect you. And how you still can't understand something when I explain it a thousand times

(such as quick lycnhing is a stupid motive when it rarely happens so being on an easy mislynch early is dumb)

.

Why do you keep on talking about quicklynches? I mean, what's the point of it?? Btw, the only time we we're even close to one was when you jumped on the Empire wagon...

How do even make statementsl ike i am not being proactive,

you don't even know what my suspects and views about each one properly.

This is Mafia, a place i can ask, accuse, argue with players around me. so, don't tell me what not to do. Being a townie I would expect my town to find me and its important to act as team. you can't on your win get the town win. so my attempt was to see how many people have common opinion it is an effort to see who the most scummy but it doesn't change what my opinion one each one based on observation, but it is not always safe depend on self opinons becuase the rest town may have information than i do and i am trying to get what i need to identifiy mafia.

I think that's the problem right there. In your position you should be more worried at getting your proper opinions and suspicions out there than asking random and possibly irrelevant questions.

[Kingmaker]

As he has the highest post count, I'm starting with Mehdi.

His early stuff is meh. Interaction with Johhog is not making my read about him better. I don't know why he is taking vig direction thing so seriously though, I assumed it was a joke. Anyway, vig power belongs to vig(assuming there is one, of course) and it is his decision. I'm okay with vig shooting anyone who is not VPI/CI.

Only thing made me worry was his high activity, since mafia usually avoids it, especially at first day. But since he said his town and mafia play are not so different(IIRC), I can count that off too.

I'm okay with Mehdi lynch, and I can hammer after I finish all of my reads.

[Mehdi2277]

Quick replies being, from my wagon vi and joh I think are scum (although that isn't connected to the wagon too much). SAD and tammy I think are town. Kon meh. Can't remember who else

And quick lynch = easy target since if you're pushing someone as scum it's likely for a lynch and easy kind of shows you think it won't take too much time or won't be too hard.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Only thing made me worry was his high activity, since mafia usually avoids it, especially at first day

See Black Flag.

[Kingmaker]

Arthur is town. Half gut-half meta based. I find his play similar to his town play and though he is spamming a little (:P) I think he is town.

#194 coming right after #188 and #189 is kinda ironic though.

[Kingmaker]

Only thing made me worry was his high activity, since mafia usually avoids it, especially at first day

See Black Flag.

I'll take a look when I have more time, thanks.