Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Kise]

Because I would have no other reason for not being up to lynch you. I think messenger is town - I think you're messenger after the fact. There's never been a request for you to confirm or deny it, keep in mind.

[zabriel]

I hadn't planned to confirm or deny it, I just found it curious that you brought it up and wanted to find your reasons for that. I hadn't followed that discussion well when I skimmed the thread and didn't find Cheery's question to you. Thanks. That helps me feel a little better about you.

[mastin2]

Im not even going to answer you Myk. I already explained heavily why ou re scum and why your most current stance if a piece of scum crap. "You are voting for me? oh scum. You arent?!? SCUM!"

Vote me or myk people.

Its really damn simple.

to qoute Chris Jericho.

Would you please SHUT THE HELL UP!

We are not doing your stupid 1vs1. We are not going to vote either you or him.

We will vote who we think is scum, not who you bitch, whine and cry about.

Shut the fuck up about it.

Anyone who thinks jason is scum when he posts something like this is either an idiot or scum.
You can't get a much better way of saying it than this.

[mastin2]

And mastin agreed with my reasoning so I guess he kind of did too.

Indeed.

Zab lynch isn't happening.

We've got three options:

AP, Cheery Dog, and PV.

I'm reconsidering my PV read, since I got a gut feelin' all of a sudden last night that AP was town, but I need to think it through.

[mastin2]

Jumping ship.

Vote: PeregrineV.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’m not fully back yet – probably will not really get to dig into the thread until tomorrow.

Still will vote for Mykonian, Nero and jasonT1981 beyond where my vote already is.

@Kublia

– what is your Nero read?

--

How much intersection is there between people who wanted the SK to kill me and people who don't want me confirmed? Because that's deranged.

This needs to be assessed because you WILL find scum in that pool. – force 3rd party killing role to off the Town PGO (sparing them having to lose a member doing it themselves) and then keeping the role from being confirmed after the Tammy is lynched.

Reminder for self – check on at a later date.

I'm really not seeing anyone here as town. At all. No one is hammering an objective case on a single person. Wagons are forming and then disintegrating for no good reason.

MoI, when were we ever town together? Just DBZ?

From someone playing as you are this game I very much don’t think I like seeing “Everyone sucks” from you …

We’ve played in only DBZ together if I recall. Mostly it’s been a Mod-player relationship between us that I remember. The only other common game we played in was Futurama, and that was only technicaly since I replaced in long after you died.

--

And you make a list. I love lists. They tell me who's scum and who needs to force themselves to get reads on paper without actually wanting to give too much away.

Yeah – you make said list yourself. So we can see how ‘honest’ your reads are.

--

@Everone saying that Zabriel is Town due to ‘Town tells’ – No. Don’t be stupid.

Look at his ISO. Seriously, look at it. It is devoid of any significant scum-hunting. It is filled with active-lurk speculation filler that does nothing to move forward the game. His last two posts are no different. Read them carefully – he spends a significant amount of time wasting wordage on an issue that does nothing to catch scum (the fact that scum will have fake-claims). He ostensibly says he brought up the issue to catch scum slipping but draws zero conclusions from the resulting discussion.

And look at the manner of his last vote –

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with Mastin right now. AP is making some good points about PV which deserve some attention, particularly points regarding posturing. I'd like to see what happens here.

VOTE: PV

His reason for voting Peregrine can be distilled down to the following –

1. AP made good points (total abdication of any responsibility for the vote)
2. PV needs attention (which Zab never actually gives him – his subsequent posts are linked above).

Anyone wanting to sell me that Zab is disinterested Town should not bother. The Mod almost has double the posts that Zab does. That’s the world’s worst excuse. If you are disinterested Town because you don’t have a flashy power-role you should stop playing Mafia. Scum have been and will continue to be caught by VT roles who give a damn

--

unvote; vote: PV

I'm vla too until PV is lynched.

If you are Town I hate you. Just know that.

--

He buddied you quite hard. Easy to towntell, I guess.

So is Cheery scum or just a terrible player for this transgression?

--

Deff. Which is why I keep asking him to confirm what his flavor is. Wait a second....didn't you accuse me earlier of not asking the mod to clarify things is a scum tell? But when ACO doesn't clarify with the mod its not a scum tell? Hello selective scumhunting.

So you have to be scum to be this stupid. He said his kill flavor is death by Foxdie. Why should he keep answering your pointless questions?

lol.

This is lots of words but not saying anything

. I commented on Kise. Stop being dumb. Are you upset that you had to share a line with him?

Lulz, what a classic “Haha laugh it off” scum response from you Nero. Maybe if you throw crap (the bolded) it will stick, huh?

Clearly your post doesn’t show a Town scum-hunting perspective since you didn’t address a single post of Kise’s and addressed a litany of mine. Yet Kise rose above me on the scum-ladder.

Here’s a tip for the future – when you spend a post calling Player X scummy for quoted post 1, 2 and 3 yet move him below another player who you don’t quote at all for what is a purely fabricated reason that’s what’s called scum-motivated play. You aren’t really interested in finding scum – just defending yourself from your biggest critic and preteding to develop reads.

I'm so hurt MOI. I'm constantly fucking right (though not all the time) as where you powerlynch town like crazy. But then again you’re scum and just trying to ruffle my feathers so meh.

This is classic scum mud slinging and has the nice little bonus of attacking me personally (which you would be doing if you thought I was Town) and turning around and calling me scum (which would mean I’m not terrible but doing a great job if it were true).

no.

Your first post was clearly stating that you thought I was lying. How was I supposed to know that were claiming that I was lying about my alignment when I looked like you were accusing me of lying about being a nieghborizer altogether?

Did you suspect my play? No. You suspected my role. You know what this looks like? Scum backtracking to put a case on me after you found out I was confirmed. You know that I’m not that hard to mislynch but I’m experienced enough to not be “low hanging fruit” I have no chance of getting you lynched unless we 1 vs. 1 (which I’m sure you’ll back out of.) So let me congratulate you, AP and Kise on winning.

Nope.jpg. The bolded is clearly not true at all as evidenced by Kise picking up on exactly the same thing I did – that your claim made little sense as Town. I like that you try to shift (you didn’t suspect my play) when I’ve piled up a mound of “This play from Nero isn’t Town Motivated” evidence showing just that.

And the “I’m an easy mislynch” card appears (similar to mykonian, interestingly enough since both of you are scummy). If that was the case your wagon would have taken off since you are scummy. Yet that didn’t happen.

I don’t have time today but I will make a full case on you either Thursday or Friday so everything is consolidated in one place.

And how is my role any weaker than a messenger? Its not.

I’m just wanting to remind everyone of what he responded to with this -

And I'm saying that is meaningless. You aren't willing to test a hypoTown role that is weak (Neighborizor) on a hypoTown role that is deadly to scum if confirmed (PGO).

Nothing in that post by me says anything about Nero’s role (Neighborizor) being weaker than the Messenger. The messenger isn’t mentioned at all. What is mentioned is that his role is significantly weaker than Acosmist’s role if both are Town.

Straw-manning scum right there.

Only that Mastin did. Hi liar scum.

Link to where Mastin did a run-down of what Thor wrote in QT that occurred before Post 3063. I’ll be waiting.

Also funny you call me liar scum when you are a

CONFIRMED LIAR

for the whole “MoI knows I am out of shots” attack you made and that you directly avoided discussing for some odd reason.

Why is that? I clearly proved you lied about the fact that you had claimed 3-shot Neighborizor before I called out your “lack of shots”.

@EVERYONE – Nero is clearly dodging the issue as he doesn’t want to address the fact he’s a confirmed liar.

KK addresses this very fact again from his own angle in Post 3190 and Nero never addresses it. So he isn’t just dodging his scum-reads – KK is nowhere to be found in his scum list.

no. stop shadowing MOI.

Not that he doesn’t call Kublai scum for this despite calling Kise scum for this exact same reason. He’s got a Town read on KK. Scum scum scum scum scum ….

[mastin2]

MoI, Nero's town. Period. Stop pursuing him. On the surface, his wording seems to contradict itself. I'll give you that much about him. But if you get into the mindset, you can tell that Nero (legitimately) believes everything he's saying. Between not remembering things perfectly and things which were implied without being outright stated, he's legitimately frustrated and confused as to why, exactly, people are pushing suspicion onto him when he knows he's telling the truth.

Jason's also about as town as he can be.

And myk's not getting lynched, like, ever.


If you want a lynch on zab, do better at convincing me. Focus on him. Show me more. I'll listen. But right now, your points against zab are footnotes compared to your points against the players who I'm not going to ever support a lynch of. You have me as town (albeit weak-town), so if you want me on your side, you're going to have to persuade me.
And right now, I'm not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, Nero's town. Period. Stop pursuing him. On the surface, his wording seems to contradict itself. I'll give you that much about him. But if you get into the mindset, you can tell that Nero (legitimately) believes everything he's saying. Between not remembering things perfectly and things which were implied without being outright stated, he's legitimately frustrated and confused as to why, exactly, people are pushing suspicion onto him when he knows he's telling the truth.

Jason's also about as town as he can be.

And myk's not getting lynched, like, ever.


If you want a lynch on zab, do better at convincing me. Focus on him. Show me more. I'll listen. But right now, your points against zab are footnotes compared to your points against the players who I'm not going to ever support a lynch of. You have me as town (albeit weak-town), so if you want me on your side, you're going to have to persuade me.
And right now, I'm not.

Mastin why do you persist in believing your reads are important to me? Here's where I am at - you blew 100% of your credibility with me in your "LUZLUZLL MoI is scum via meta and I'll just repeat it hoping people listen". And you've staked too much your reads prior to this simply on "well MoI suspects them they must be Town" for me not to really ignore your stance as "Mastin is going to ignore me so vise-versa".

Jason isn't Town via play. This is his scum meta to a tee. I should know we discussed it in QT both times were were partners in the past (Newbie game and Zach's Large Normal).

You are giving Nero a "he's incompetent therefore he is Town" pass. I don't care. You are clearly ignoring eveything I posted on him (his flip flop on the messenger yesterday, the fact that his reaction to being asked to test is to say "OH NO MOI IS SETTING ME UP" not "I can't I'm out of shots", and the fact that he's clung to the fact that him being a Neighborizor should shield him when it isn't alignment confirming in the least) for you own read.

I similarly chuckle at your empty "Mykonian is never getting lynched" bravado because it at best is Anti-Town stupid play if you are Town and you should know better in that scenario.

You do get that I'm still V/LA and don't have time to make cases on all my suspects, right? And that I'm not ignoring suspects you deem not lynchable because you say so, right? And that you are doing NOTHING to convince me of your suspects, right?

We have no common ground. I don't see it developing before one of us ends up dead. I'm not ignoring three of my top scum suspects just because you think they are Town. I'm trying to not work the thread responding to you on these any more than the minimum.

[mastin2]

Jason isn't Town via play. This is his scum meta to a tee. I should know we discussed it in QT both times were were partners in the past (Newbie game and Zach's Large Normal).

Show me in more detail. I'll listen, but I don't see him as scum. Yes, you're V/LA right now (I saw the tag); I realize you'll be limited for a while. But when you can, I want more--not links to other games (quite frankly, I don't open any links in cases), but quotes. Not just quotes from the thread, but also the QTs where jason was scum.

And I want you to show me a contrast between that and his townplay. With quotes from this game highlighting and clearly illustrating why his posts mirror his scumplay and NOT his townplay. That's what I need.

Quite frankly, I don't really have suspects at the moment. (Note the bold in my wagon hop rather than the vote tag.) I DO, however, have townreads. Jason's one of them. And no matter how little credibility you give me, if you think I'm town and you want me to follow you, you still need to convince me my townread is wrong. So show me why it is.

[mastin2]

Basically, I know you can't right now, but when you can, I want a jason case (preferably with the above format) and a zab case from ya.
I'll listen. More so now than at any other point in the game, given that I lack direction towards suspects.

But I'm not going to ever support a Nero lynch or a myk lynch.

If you want common ground, focus on jason and zab. I'm not so stubborn that I'll refuse.

[mastin2]

Also, hai, PV. You're the main wagon right now.

What say you to that?

[AngryPidgeon]

Anyone who thinks jason is scum when he posts something like this is either an idiot or scum.
You can't get a much better way of saying it than this.

It looks like posturing. I dont see why he is so pissed off at it. Disappointed, maybe. That said, I don't think hes scum for it.

@Everone saying that Zabriel is Town due to ‘Town tells’ – No.

Don’t be stupid.

Easier said than done.

If you are disinterested Town because you don’t have a flashy power-role you should stop playing Mafia. Scum have been and will continue to be caught by VT roles who give a damn

Yes, lurking and being disengaged are anti-town. And annoying. But that doesn't mean it isn't what is happening.

@Mastin: Thats probably because Zab isn't actively posting.

The above is why MoI is obvtown.

MoI, you think PV is town?

Re Nero: Did he ever explain why he said MoI knew he was out of shots and was setting him up? And ya, his opinions on testing Acosmist/messengerTestingAcosmist are scummy as hell.

@Acosmist: IIRC Yates wanted Tammy to shoot you. And possibly KK, but I think Yates was the one pushing it actively.

P-edit: you don't think Acosmist/Kise/MoI are scum any more?

[PeregrineV]

Back at work, and haven't read anything in days, but here is why Myk is town:

Spoiler: Mykonian's posts re:Tammy

I love you tammy, but you have to go.

vote tammy

unvote

Well, this one is easy to figure out. Tammy gets shot in the face within a day: she wasn't the dayvig. Someone else gets shot: she is!

I think benmage might want to fullclaim before he's shot (so if you are town tammy, please don't act too quickly)

I can bold who I want to vig in thread or email it and it will happen.

Well I guess it is multiball, or I caught the SK... either way Tammy hangs.

Fire away tammy. If you are town you can prove it now. He isn't a gunsmith or something which could explain a possible false guilty.

If you are fakeclaiming... well, I guess benmage doesn't die very quickly then

I love how in 5 minutes we'll have certain scum.

nero, if tammy is town, that's a flat out fakeclaim from ben, and he isn't taking it back in any form. She should shoot that if she's town.

Wait, my mouse battery dies. You want me to shoot Benmage?

Yes. If you are the vig, he must be scum, and visa versa.

Mykonian- But wouldnt town vigs crumb something? You know, in case THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE LYNCHED LIKE RIGHT NOW.
Anyway that's still a fucking dumb reason to want me dead but nice tunneling there brah

Because you don't lynch them. That's kind of the point. If she's scum, she gets shot by the real vig. If she's town, she doesn't get shot.

And I'm perfectly happy to wait for this situation to resolve itself. If I was wrong about benmage, I don't have to tunnel so hard.

It is rather advisable to unvote though. You don't want to lynch a claimed vig, really. If she's scum, she'll get shot. So don't be silly, as you can only mislynch her.

The series of posts quoted show exactly how I thought.

1. Ben claims guilty on Tammy
2. Tammy claims Ben is wrong.

If Tammy is town dayvig, and Ben is wrong, Tammy shoots Ben. It's really that simple. The fact she didn't meant that Tammy was not town.

Myk calling her out to do it is the natural town thought process. We don't know if Ben is lying, Tammy is lying, they are both lying, or they are both telling the truth. So we revert to logic, and what we would do in her spot as a Town dayvig. As town, if someone claimed a guilty on you, and you can shoot them, you do.

When she didn't, the fact she killed AV meant she was probably some form of SK.

Anyone pushing for "Myk said to shoot the cop" is either scum, or needs to find a better argument.

pedit: Not much right now, since I'm supposed to be reconciling 12 months of international eliminations, but it's boring as hell, and I've been trying to post my Myk=town quotes for 2 days.
Why am I the lead wagon?

[AngryPidgeon]

Cool, I ALSO said that Tammy had to be scum because she wouldn't shot Ben. And I wasn't even actively prodding her to do it for town cookies. Go me!

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublia – what is your Nero read?

Scum. I'm genuinely confused as to how/why his role works as town and he's replying with hostility. If the AngryPidgeon wagon isn't happening (and doesn't seem to since mastin2 jumped ship), then I'll join you on the Nero Cain wagon.

Not going to change vote yet though. Only skimmed the last page or two. I'll read up after work tonight.

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV:

Put simply, I need to know exactly where you stand.

You seem to be agreeing with all the right players, agreeing a lot with me, agreeing a lot with Nero, agreeing with Khan and all that, but...

Where, exactly, do you, yourself, stand on all players?

So yeah, from you I want a list of scumreads. Like with Nero, ordered strongest to weakest, along with reasons why they're scumreads. It can be anything from a sentence to a long paragraph long, but I need it from you, since you're one of the few voices of strong reason in the town right now.

Strongest town:
8. PeregrineV
4. mykonian
6. mastin2
21. Nero Cain

Weaker town:
19. Kublai Khan
16. jasonT1981
9. Amrun pidgey

Not sure reads:
3. zabriel
10. Acosmist
11. MagnaofIllusion

Weak scum:
5. Kise
12. Yates

Strong scum:
14. AngryPidgeon
17. Cheery Dog

[PeregrineV]

I've given reason why I'm still unsure on Acomist and MoI. If they've made any arguments in the last few pages, I haven't read those yet.

Zabriel is just plain null. Unfortunately, this is a good indication of scum a lot of the time.

Kise- Early game was mostly uncomfortable gut. I later got townvibes from some posts, but others seemed to be posted primarily for distraction purposes. Probably the final straw was the Esclouta turnaround from 2117 to 2765, apparently for the reason of "The Esclouta wagon picked up".

Yates-Mostly for the fact that despite his 213 posts, I don't feel like his contribution level matches that of his posting level. His votes have mostly been wagon jumps, when I'm used to hearing original case material from him.

AP- I've given that before. If something changes in when I catch up, I'll update this read.

Cheery Dog- Not sure if I've given why, let me go check.

[PeregrineV]

Cheery Dog- Was never too happy with snifit, as some of his early posts seemed contradictory in nature. Cheery's replacing in, while appreciated, also included the fact that he never read the thread, and has pretty much stated he has no intention to. While following the advice about reading the first few pages, he ignored the actual scumhunting part. How can you catch scum if you don't know what's going on?
You can't.

If any of this has changed, I'll update also.

So, I'm back to page 125, and I'll read from there.

[PeregrineV]

Tunnel vision is not a scumtell.

It allows you to focus all of your game on a single player, to the exclusion of other players, including your sumbuddies. Why would scum not use it when it gives them an out to actual scumhunting?

[Yates]

Alright - I can be convinced to vote for Zab or Nero. I had Nero as Town due to his role claim but there are valid points being raised about his "x-shot" ability suddenly being spent when we have an opportunity to test it. So I'm actually leaning Nero over an admitted POE + OMGUS vote on Zab.

[PeregrineV]

I had a townread on him for the longest. The first time I thought to reconsider was when

he was telling Tammy in the QT

that jason may be right about me lurking as a scum tactic - I should point out that that same phase, I mentioned scum would be lurking after having their roleblocker daykilled. I didn't begin to "lurk" until the last week or so of day 1. The thing is, I literally spoke to Nero the day before signing up for this game. He asked why I stopped playing mafia and I told him I wouldn't devote enough time to it. But, I popped online the next day, saw he signed up for this and said why not, so I joined. I feel Nero should know I wasn't lurking as a scum thing,

but the way he was playing Tammy in the QT made me pause.

Did I miss something, or are you a part of Nero's neighborhood now? I thought he added Tammy then Thor& Mastin. You're talking like you're reading it.

[zabriel]

For two minutes I thought that PV's points on Myk were making sense, but Tammy was self-aligned, which means that Myk could totally make that argument from a scum perspective. If he encourages Tammy to shoot Ben and she does and he flips, the cop is dead and everybody is pissed at Tammy for killing the cop and we lynch her because we tend to assume our cops are sane unless we're derping and mistaking "not mafia" for "town". Anti-Tammy =/= Town though. Eliminating one faction from the game is a positive event no matter what your alignment is.

[PeregrineV]

I suggested that the messenger do it. And the point would be to have a MOD CONFIRMED NK-IMMUNE TOWNIE. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT. Or if hes scum then hes scum. Great!

ITs functionally equivalent to a useless PR using their PR as a 1-shot hide on someone. (Except they die if hes town, but same idea). And we are in EVENS so that hide doesnt cost us a lynch if Acosmist is town. Ill take Hider over Neighborizer ANY day.

You suggested the messenger not claim.
You suggested the messenger target Acomist, the claimed PGO.

Based on your two statements, how would we ever know the action took place and/or wasn't interfered with by scum?

For this reason, your previous statement "Messenger shouldn't claim" and current statement "Unclaimed messenger targeting claimed PGO will tell us if PGO is really town" seem HIGHLY CONTRADICTORY.

[AngryPidgeon]

Tunnel vision is not a scumtell.

It allows you to focus all of your game on a single player, to the exclusion of other players, including your sumbuddies. Why would scum not use it when it gives them an out to actual scumhunting?

Ok, then why is pidgey town?

Sure its a viable scum strat, but town do it all the fucking time. Its just not a tell by itself.

[AngryPidgeon]

I suggested that the messenger do it. And the point would be to have a MOD CONFIRMED NK-IMMUNE TOWNIE. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT. Or if hes scum then hes scum. Great!

ITs functionally equivalent to a useless PR using their PR as a 1-shot hide on someone. (Except they die if hes town, but same idea). And we are in EVENS so that hide doesnt cost us a lynch if Acosmist is town. Ill take Hider over Neighborizer ANY day.

You suggested the messenger not claim.
You suggested the messenger target Acomist, the claimed PGO.

Based on your two statements, how would we ever know the action took place and/or wasn't interfered with by scum?

For this reason, your previous statement "Messenger shouldn't claim" and current statement "Unclaimed messenger targeting claimed PGO will tell us if PGO is really town" seem HIGHLY CONTRADICTORY.

My original reason for saying the messenger shouldn't claim was that Nero was already claimed and could do it. And if he flipped scum, the messenger is likely town via setup spec, so why have them claim?

But since Nero is 'out of shots', that doesnt matter. Let them claim. Admittedly, Acosmist saying his kill may not (wont) happen immediately or even in an established timeframe makes this more complicated. But Im guessing that scum interfering isnt an issue. Tammy had distinct kill flavor. Scum seem to have something similar. Acosmist is claiming FOXDIE as his kill flavor. If someone flips messenger or w/e and dies from something that looks remotely like foxdie, then cool. If the scum kill the messenger to interfere then thats ok.

1. They were forced to direct their NK on the messenger instead of using it somewhere else.
2. The messenger dies with appropriate kill flavor so we know that it happened and ignore the resulting WIFOM.

Assuming both are town. IF the messenger is town, there should be no reason to not do it.

Forcing the messenger to claim right now is good if they are scum. If they are town, the right play would be to trust that they target Acosmist privately and then report back if they live. So, eh. Im all for having the messenger claim and target Acosmist. Not doing so is a scum claim from them.