Player Slot and Game Census

[Mr. Flay]

Also, historically there has been little-to-no wait for Large Themes to go into signups. Hoopla's era contained the only backlog I can ever think of seeing since 2004.

[quadz08]

And what I'm saying is that I think the evidence more clearly points toward not enough mods at the moment because there are ZERO games in sign ups right now.

False.

That's a Large Normal. we were talking about Large Themes.

It's not a Normal, it's a Theme. The title just happens to include New York.

[zoraster]

One thing I will say for the current situation: it solves the problem of people signing up without having everything set. Now, you know that when you sign up you'd better be 100% ready to go.

[zoraster]

so it is. My bad. that's kinda confusing and i can't imagine helps his sign ups...

[Zachrulez]

Is this a symptom of restrictive modding experience requirements, or more a product of us moving in a more restrictive direction in terms of what a moderator needs to have done before they enter the queue?

I see a lot of discussion focusing on the first, but the 2nd doesn't seem to be considered. I know I consider the changes particularly to the normal queue to be quite tedious and annoying to go through, and the recent changes to the large theme queue have certainly made me think twice about submitting a game for that one as well.

I might be way off base on my thoughts, but that's what popped into my head when I saw this discussion pop up.

[Oversoul]

Also, historically there has been little-to-no wait for Large Themes to go into signups. Hoopla's era contained the only backlog I can ever think of seeing since 2004.

What hasn't Hoopla done?

[Mr. Flay]

Um, did I name the wrong List Mod? I think I meant Kinetic.

[Oversoul]

I was just making a joke.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm just going to say I basically agree with Zoraster here.

[Faraday]

Also, historically there has been little-to-no wait for Large Themes to go into signups. Hoopla's era contained the only backlog I can ever think of seeing since 2004.

There was a backlog a few months ago when I went in signups for ADWD. I was over a month in the queue.

[Faraday]

Look at Mafiastuck, by Gorrad and I, or Politics Mafia, by Haylen and Jordan, for examples of very large games that took just ages to fill.

In fairness Gorrad isn't that well known by new players due to being absent for so long (and his last modded game he was absent for intervals too) and Haylen/Jordan are...well yeah, Haylen/Jordan. Mods can still fill large large games pretty quickly. Flavour + mod rep definitely helps and needs to be popular to attempt to fill a large large game.

I do agree with Zor, I was wanting to sign up for a Large Theme for a while but there's not been a lot of options and some of them have been unappealing.

edit:

I know I consider the changes particularly to the normal queue to be quite tedious and annoying to go through, and the recent changes to the large theme queue have certainly made me think twice about submitting a game for that one as well.

Maybe, but they're positive changes on the whole. What changes about the L Theme queue would make you not want to enter it? Is it the limited time to fill the game? Because 3 weeks is more than adequate.

[nhammen]

I disagree with almost the entirety of that post Faraday.

In fairness Gorrad isn't that well known by new players due to being absent for so long (and his last modded game he was absent for intervals too) and Haylen/Jordan are...well yeah, Haylen/Jordan. Mods can still fill large large games pretty quickly. Flavour + mod rep definitely helps and needs to be popular to attempt to fill a large large game.

So you believe that mods with poor or no reputation are part of the problem with the Large Theme queue, and yet you agree with Zor's plan to... increase the number of mods with poor or no reputation on the Large Theme queue?

What changes about the L Theme queue would make you not want to enter it? Is it the limited time to fill the game? Because 3 weeks is more than adequate.

If this change has had any effect at all recently, then that argues against Zor's premise.

[Faraday]

I don't think there are many things that can be really disagreed with? 'I agree with zoraster' is about the only opinion I offer.

So you believe that mods with poor or no reputation are part of the problem with the Large Theme queue, and yet you agree with Zor's plan to... increase the number of mods with poor or no reputation on the Large Theme queue?

No. I believe mods with poor reputations running

really fucking big games

is a problem.

What makes you think these new mods are going to have a poor reputation? Putting more mods in the queue will increase the number of good mods, since I think on average most people are at least competent at modding and can probably fill a large theme.

If this change has had any effect at all recently, then that argues against Zor's premise.

It's probably filled games slightly quicker, the effect is negligible I'd imagine.

[nhammen]

Specifically, the new mods will have no modding reputation, which is one of the points you raised against Gorrad (that he has no reputation among newer players). You raise a good point that your post was facts not opinions. I guess it would be more correct to say that I disagree with the implications of your post, which are what I argued against above.

[Faraday]

Specifically, the new mods will have no modding reputation, which is one of the points you raised against Gorrad (that he has no reputation among newer players).

Well, see. zoraster thinks we need more mods, the problem with Jordan et all is there games fill super slow. I don't really think they're the same problem? I was basically just saying 'yes those games filled slowly but there are counterpoints see: adwd/gay mafia which both filled super quick'. Even if the new mods are 50/50 bad/good you'll still get a lot more game variety, right?

[zoraster]

increasing the number of mods coming through will increase the number of mods with good reputations in the end. sure, some will be bad or forgettable, but some will be great examples of mods. It's not that being somewhat more generous about requirements means that we're really scraping the barrel or anything. Just that they won't have had two games experience.

I'm really open to suggestions for different policies to achieve this; I have no set way I think is superior at the moment.

[Ythan]

We can either tell people they can't join games with potentially shit mods or we can let people decide if they want to join games with potentially shit mods.

[LlamaFluff]

Large Themes are odd from a LM standpoint.

Most will fill within a couple days of opening, or barely fill. There tends to be almost no middle ground, if the game doesnt fill within a week it probably gets the "one week or its gone" warning. Most games that are like this are due to the mods being viewed as poor, incompetent, the theme being an unpopular one, or a mix of all of them.

Getting the LT queue moving again, or anything like that, is not something we should force though. Large games take time, lots of time, especially if there is flavor attached. A common LT for me, from the point I decide I want to run one, usually is two months or so before I put it in the queue. They simply require more of a modding commitment, and if concept to game ending is six months, there wont be a ton of games being put out by core mods. Making it so more mods can run might increase the quantity, but not necessarily the quality of games. When its quality that is coveted, thats what we need instead. More established mods that can attract a crowd running a game. If anything I would try to raise the modding requirements instead of lower them, but neither of those is going to happen anytime soon. Basically dont look for the requirements to fall, they wont.

I guess my biggest thing here is - Is there actually a problem with not a lot of LT games taking signups? It fluxuates quite a bit, a couple of months ago there was a decent queue and over ten games running. Now the queue is basically a day for me to notice the game, get modding privlages out and then release it. Why is that a bad thing though? If the games that do get ran are all good, thats almost the perfect queue.

And because it was brough up - modding alts/hydras/etc (that havent met past requirements) are required to reveal who they are alts of in order to run games.

[zoraster]

My concern about the large theme queue is an ecumenical one so to speak. It's about the overall effect this has on the site where we're low on active players (or at least player slots).

I suspect you're right about the sign ups, LF. Either things are popular and fill or are unpopular and don't easily. That can be a large problem when we have a full queue. Less of problem when we don't.

My issue is that we put pretty artificial caps on Large Themes. Yes, moderating a game before taking on the responsibility for the design and moderation of a 20+ player game is a very good idea.

But I think there's a real question at what additional utility having a second game makes.

If we were forcing mods who wanted to do large themes to do large normals first, this helps. But letting them do a second Mini-Normal or Open? or even a Mini-Theme? Not huge differences.

I'm okay with that fairly artificial barrier when times are booming and we really have a Thok's law scenario across the board. But when they're not, I think we should try and reduce barriers to the point where the barriers only exist to make sure we have as quality a game as the barrier can provide.

My suggestion would be to have some sort of waiver system after a game experience where the arbiter (LT List Mod or some other person) can look at things like number and quality of micros run, the suggested theme and whether it's likely to pull in lots of players, who the proposed backup mod is and whether that backup mod can vouch for the quality of the game, etc.

[Mr. Flay]

Eh. Ideally a completed Large [X] and a completed [X] Theme (2 if Micro) would qualify you for a Large Theme, but I'm not sure that would fly with the userbase. We have enough trouble with the chokepoint of Mini Normal. And then there's the possibility of just making a Large Normal with 14p. *shrug*

I'm not sure how the current scenario ISN'T subject to Thok's Law, though. If anything playerslots being down is making it worse sitewide, yes?

[zoraster]

Eh. Ideally a completed Large [X] and a completed [X] Theme (2 if Micro) would qualify you for a Large Theme, but I'm not sure that would fly with the userbase. We have enough trouble with the chokepoint of Mini Normal. And then there's the possibility of just making a Large Normal with 14p. *shrug*

I'm not sure how the current scenario ISN'T subject to Thok's Law, though. If anything playerslots being down is making it worse sitewide, yes?

First, yeah. That's what I meant. We can't really put in that policy because there isn't much demand for Large Normals.

Second, that's why I qualified it as "Thok's law across the board." We still have Thok's law* in other queues. But that doesn't apply to Large Themes where we have no queue. That's been true in the past too. So in a way, Thok's law in the upstream queues make it so that we don't have them in the downstream ones.

*Though the extent to which this is true as stated has always been somewhat suspect.

[LlamaFluff]

My suggestion would be to have some sort of waiver system after a game experience where the arbiter (LT List Mod or some other person) can look at things like number and quality of micros run, the suggested theme and whether it's likely to pull in lots of players, who the proposed backup mod is and whether that backup mod can vouch for the quality of the game, etc.

Im REALLY against this one, even though it looks like mini/open + 2 micro = LT status in the future, im not even too thrilled with that. I still would be happy with MORE requirements (2+ games ran, 5+ games played, 1+ year on site or something like that)

There is a difference to me in being able to run game from someone who says "I have ran six micros varying from 5 to 9" and someone who says "I have ran two 13 player games" when they are showing up with a 21 player setup. Even if they have more experience in modding games, the time commitment both length wise and day to day duties isnt comprable.

[zoraster]

but why? If we have too many mods, sure. But the harm is fairly low otherwise. Yeah, we might get a few more "bad" games than normal, but we'll probably also get more good games than we do now (since we have more games offered and not all games will be bad).

The mod we're talking about has:
(a) been here for at leats 3 months (and likely 5-6 with normal/open queue waits)
(b) already shown they can mod a 13p game
(c) has shown they have a workable theme concept
(d) has modded more in the micro queue
(e) has a backup that vouches for the quality of the game

I don't think this is exactly opening pandora's box.

And I'm having a pretty hard time figuring out where you're coming from wanting the requirements to be even more onerous. What is the real gain in that rather than the artificial feeling that we're "doing something" to improve quality not unlike the TSA making a six-year-old remove his sweatshirt.

[LlamaFluff]

but why? If we have too many mods, sure. But the harm is fairly low otherwise. Yeah, we might get a few more "bad" games than normal, but we'll probably also get more good games than we do now (since we have more games offered and not all games will be bad).

There has been a lot of issues with games being ran as of late, way too many so it has me wanting to be far less forgiving about things and more unwilling to let the "maybe" things few. One of those where a few people screwing it up hurts everyone, but when I have had to step in as many games as I have in the last few months, thats bad. For Micros, maybe if a mod had been doing those solidly for a long period of time with no incidents, but im just a little wary about them suddenly tripling their gamesize with no intermediate steps.

And I'm having a pretty hard time figuring out where you're coming from wanting the requirements to be even more onerous. What is the real gain in that rather than the artificial feeling that we're "doing something" to improve quality not unlike the TSA making a six-year-old remove his sweatshirt.

Well im not going to raise them, im just saying I would raise them before I even considered lowering them. Two games modded is NOT a hard thing to do really.

[zoraster]

but those are people who qualify. Would relaxing those standards really let more of that through? It's possible, but I don't know that it's really much more likely.