Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Adam-12]

Ya it was kind of, she was trying to say that she intentionally garnered negative attention from the beginning of the thread like Bork and that Hawk was spinning because of the hypocrisy -- a terrible terrible push.

Vote Count
Thor665 (L-2): Shrimp85, Adam-12, ProHawk
Mantisdreamz (L-4): borkjerfkin
ProHawk (L-3): Thor665, Malakittens
Malakittens (L-4): Mantisdreamz
Shrimp85 (L-4): Leviathan93

Not Voting: Guile

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Her underlying point was that she wasn't blending in. Also absolutely terrible.

[ProHawk]

You are going to have to dumb it down more for me Thor. All I see is...

Definition: Spinning is trying to misinterpret a motivation and paint it as scummy when it isn't.

But she never says

what

I was spinning (which I don't think I was spinning).

"Pray-tell what negative attention did you intentionally garner?" - How is this mis-interpreting a motivation? And how am I painting it as scummy? Mollie was the one who said that she intentionally posted in an attempt to get negative attention.

[Adam-12]

I also questioned her on this and she split her definitions by saying: 1) She started off playing well, 2) She got negative attention from Bork & Hawk and went into "tanking" mode

First, this completely changes the definition of Bork's negative attention (because he didn't bother to start out well) and second I never could really tell where Molly was really actually playing bad deliberately except for the lip service she paid to it. I saw it is a very bad excuse and I think it was to hide she was scum as evidenced by her terrible "scum perfume" defense.

[Adam-12]

EBWOP: negative attention by

Shrimp

& Hawk

[Adam-12]

My mind is still spinning on how circular and self-imploding her defense was -- definitely not a townie defense. She literally was twisting herself into a pretzel trying to keep a town image together.

[Thor665]

You guys have invented the 'spinning' tell in this game, so I'll happily admit I may be interpreting it wrong. My understanding was that it was synonymous with 'misrep'.

[Thor665]

Ya it was kind of, she was trying to say that she intentionally garnered negative attention from the beginning of the thread like Bork and that Hawk was spinning because of the hypocrisy -- a terrible terrible push.

Yet not inherently a scummy one - as discussed.
Bad play does not equate to scum play. The question is whether she believed there had been a legit twist of her actions by ProHawk - I would submit that it is easy to see that she did. I have also found (and shown) ProHawk to be twisty and dancy as well. You seem to forgive him instantly though - why the different takes there?

Her underlying point was that she wasn't blending in. Also absolutely terrible.

Considering ProHawk's comments - no, I think that was a valid point.

You are going to have to dumb it down more for me Thor. All I see is...

Definition: Spinning is trying to misinterpret a motivation and paint it as scummy when it isn't.

But she never says

what

I was spinning (which I don't think I was spinning).

By the quotes she specifically calls your reaction to her entrance to the game a spin. You can disagree with the conclusion, but you can't deny the statement.

[Adam-12]

Ya it was kind of, she was trying to say that she intentionally garnered negative attention from the beginning of the thread like Bork and that Hawk was spinning because of the hypocrisy -- a terrible terrible push.

Yet not inherently a scummy one - as discussed.
Bad play does not equate to scum play. The question is whether she believed there had been a legit twist of her actions by ProHawk - I would submit that it is easy to see that she did. I have also found (and shown) ProHawk to be twisty and dancy as well. You seem to forgive him instantly though - why the different takes there?

I think it was scum flail. She was saying, "Look at me I deliberately played bad just like Bork and you Hawk are scummy because you gave him a town pass". Why is her logic so bad here because its clear what Bork did and what she supposedly did are completely different. No, I don't think she believed it, I think she wanted everyone else to though and she used it as a reason to try and paint Hawk in a scummy way. If her logic was internally consistent she wouldn't be pushing crap cases in an attempt to ease suspicion.

I tire of defending Hawk but I think he explained himself in his recovery post and to me it reads as genuine because I was feeling the exact same frustration over the situation.

I deliberately held back initially so I could examine his defense because as Mantis said, it did raise a red flag how he called for the hammer. I believe he was truly frustrated as town over Mollie's horrendous play (I have things I still want to say about it after this game) and because of his pro-town play all game long, I maintain that read.

[Thor665]

1. She was actually challenging that he had said scum would try to blend in and noted that she clearly hadn't - I think that's a quite fair question and not a scumtell.

2. I still feel like you're brushing lightly over Hawk - what did he do earlier in the game to earn him this type of pass?

[Adam-12]

Well I posted to summary posts in my ISO where I go into detail.

[Adam-12]

Hawk -- I like his perception regarding Levi being too new to prolong the confirmation (I think Shrimp was trying to say the same thing but it was too difficult for me to understand him). I like his Mala +town points for ending RVS. I also liked his initial read on Mollie with the way she voted for Levi and completely shared that view. I think his strong push on Mollie was very pro-town. I absolutely cannot fault him for his semantic-based argument, re: Shrimp. His quick reversal out of it and town read of Shrimp is very good. Again the Mollie-Hawk interactions are quite good. Hawk's content is light but I am not too worried about it, when he does post, it is quite good and I have him as town.

Hawk

-- His post volume has increased substantially and can no longer be considered a minimalist poster. His initial push of Guille was very good and very pro-town with the excellent "any last words" statement. From that statement he was able to identify 3 posters that had strange reactions to it: Mala, Mollie & Shrimp. He pointed out that Mala was only concerned about the speed of the lynch & Shrimp had earlier town slipped but Mollie had used it as a reason to vote him. I agree with his assessment it also appeared opportunistic to me and not just an isolated case. I like how he simultaneously tunnels players but yet addresses every other player at the same time. People have questioned his motivations and I have agreed with and supported his explanations; Guille hammer statement was a tarp, people need to be voted to get reads on them even without solid logic, hunting <> tunneling, a scum lynch of one of two mutually exclusive suspects will clear the other, etc. I did disagree with his stance on Bork but his calling out of Bork on content was very good nonetheless. Same content thing with Levi, Hawk is protecting the game state. I did note his mistake on Guille's case concerning Mollie where he went ott and said Guille was making a case out of his grooming meta lookup but upon questioning him and reviewing his posts, it is clear that Hawk actually believed what he was saying there. I agree with his vote of Mollie for the opportunistic vote of Levi with the terrible "those of us who are scum" debacle and it lines up with her earlier opportunistic vote of Hawk for the Guille "hammer" post and with her selectively answering Mantis' question and not even mentioning Levi in her response; it is clear she knows that Levi is an easy lynch. His calling out of Mala was very good and again shows that he is protecting the game state and his pursuit of her content post because of broken links is consistent with that. There is no doubt that Hawk is a strong town read.

[Adam-12]

1. She was actually challenging that he had said scum would try to blend in and noted that she clearly hadn't - I think that's a quite fair question and not a scumtell.

Trying to paint her own play as analogous to Bork's doesn't even fit though; its reaching and shows desperation. Desperation is inconsistent with her stated purpose so its internally inconsistent. It shows she is clearly misrepresenting herself & doesn't believe what she is saying.

[Thor665]

Trying to paint her own play as analogous to Bork's doesn't even fit though; its reaching and shows desperation. Desperation is inconsistent with her stated purpose so its internally inconsistent. It shows she is clearly misrepresenting herself & doesn't believe what she is saying.

Unvote: ProHawk
VOte: Malakittens

[ProHawk]

Mala, I would still like to see your case on me.

[Adam-12]

You guys have invented the 'spinning' tell in this game, so I'll happily admit I may be interpreting it wrong. My understanding was that it was synonymous with 'misrep'.

Ya anytime somebody is taking something that should be seen as objective reality and twists it around to suit their agenda, its spinning. That can be really anything, town behavior, scummy behavior, arguments, motivations, anything... The key is defining what that objective reality should be in order to prove the spin.

[Adam-12]

The country and governmental system under which this game was created are masters of "spin".

[Thor665]

So spin is misrepping and lying then? Cool.

@Mod - V/LA with an emphasis on the LA part. 12-17 I'll probably still post everyday, but my activity will decrease.

[Mantisdreamz]

1) Mantis never once stated that Mollie gets flustered while playing
2a) From her description of herself and opening in this game I would not expect her to be a player that gets flustered
2b) I do think that she did exhibit behavior along the lines of nervous/manipulative scum from the very beginning of this game
3) I would like to see Mantis weigh in on this

she actually does get flustered as town too.

this is why i'm torn about this, and it's not looking as clear cut to me that she's scum.

i kind of like levi's vote on shrimp right now, actually. and think that shrimp could be a possibility. i just saw that he came in and asked who thor was subbing for. that seems like maybe he's overdoing it. why not just flip back several pages to see what's going on... kind of seems like a possible clueless act. anyway, not that certain about it, but it stuck out to me.

[Mantisdreamz]

Why's Mantis town, everyone who thinks she is? I haven't seen decent reasoning for her reads, just a lot of inquisitive nudges on people without a whole lot of conclusions. Her scumlist in 1005 reads like connections mean that scum would never buddy or bus, which just really looks like someone who's fabricating anti-connections by looking to see who's had any sort of reaction with anybody and ruling those teams out.

I know that scum buddy and bus. but it was a sort of rough thing to go off of at the moment. i'm not as certain that scum would bus on day 1 (where there is only 2 of them), which is what made me make those loose conclusions.

[Thor665]

@Mantis - you should vote Mala or Shrimp.

[Malakittens]

I don't even with Thor's vote on me at this point.

Pro, I already outlined your case.

Adam, try rereading my earlier posts for the answer they are there.

As for my meta on Guile, he's probably town. As scum he looked reluctant to give reads out, but in his first post he gave his thoughts.

[leviathan93]

@mala that could have been because he wanted to appear innocent in his first post and not have to say anything later since he already seemed so town.

[Adam-12]

I don't even with Thor's vote on me at this point.

Pro, I already outlined your case.

Adam, try rereading my earlier posts for the answer they are there.

As for my meta on Guile, he's probably town. As scum he looked reluctant to give reads out, but in his first post he gave his thoughts.

Can you link?

[Malakittens]

Okay I found the bloody post that I was looking at in the beginning.

This

I was looking at Mollie's post regarding Levi's scum slip. Then I realized that it could have been a scum slip.

The "reason" was for the second thing he quoted. The reason for my lack of content.