Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Thor665]

maybe borkjerfkin should be lynched.

Why can't I get your vote on ProHawk?

Vote Count
Thor665 (L-2): Shrimp85, Adam-12, ProHawk
Mantisdreamz (L-4): borkjerfkin
Leviathan (L-4): Malakittens
ProHawk (L-4): Thor665
Malakittens (L-4): Mantisdreamz

Not Voting: leviathan93, Guile

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Mantisdreamz]

maybe borkjerfkin should be lynched.

I found this humorous. just saying. =P i have nothing of any worth to add to this, but it settles the dispute between adam and thor right now. =)

if he turned up scum, yes it would! ...maybe.

[Adam-12]

You're engaging in VCA, which is pretty subjective enough as it is, but we don't even have a flip!

How is that quality play?

By you asking this I can only presume you don't even understand what I'm doing.

My points are quite sound and require no flips. Seriously, again, if I'm scum, where do you think my buddy is considering there is *no other wagon with steam* nor has there been for some time. This is not rocket science.

If you are scum and your partner is a newb, it is very easy for them to be incapable of pushing a case on you or on anyone else. Does that mean I should be lynching Leviathan? He made a whopper of a "slip" back there about if we think you are scum we should lynch you and "suffer" the consequences??

1. Are you saying Leviathan is my scumbuddy? That would be the same Leviathan you had issues with how both Mollie and I voted?
2. The only way that is a slip is if he is scum and I am town.

No. But you are using your phony VCA hypothesis to push a bad case on Hawk.

I'm not happy.

Nor am I. You just dimissed that entire thing for no real reason - much like how you've ignored half of what else I've said today.
You have noticed how you complaints of bad case pushing and not responding to cases pushed on me are actually more applicable to Hawk than to me, right?

Do you think he actually looks town?
If so, how?
If not, why do you fight so hard the idea that he is scummy?

1) Because I have been playing with him every page for the last 40+ pages.
2) Because your initial case on him was good as a scum hunting probe
3) Because he adequately explained his actions with a substantive post
4) Because you keep pushing his case but now with phony VCA
4a) The point about it is there are other possible reasons for your scenario other than "Hawk must be scum"; I pointed out one such possible scenario. Its still VCA regardless of how you spin it and we do not have a flip
5) Because your entrance into this game lacked an honest appraisal of your slot & your bad case on Hawk is further example of this.

[Mantisdreamz]

maybe borkjerfkin should be lynched.

Why can't I get your vote on ProHawk?

because his stubbornness doesn't seem all that scummy.

i'm waiting on malakittens, and her referencing of scum guille. and also what she has to say in response to guille.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4526264
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4526178

[Thor665]

@Adam - fine, you're too tunneled right now to be of any use.

@Mantis - you did note how he came at me with his master case of the "contradiction" (which wasn't even a contradiction.
Then admitted that his "this is enough to lynch you right now" came from a place where he also asmitted that HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF IT WAS OR WASN'T A VALID SCUMTELL.
He then challenged me to prove it wasn't valid (the opposite of how reality is supposed to work.
And that I then did so...and he NEVER SPOKE OF IT AGAIN.

Town?

[Adam-12]

What would you consider good play?

You are using your lack of reading the game as a handicap to dismiss solidly established scum tells on principle & misstating the facts as you go. If you actually had read the game you could actually respond to the points

in the context of the game

instead of declaring the majority of the town "derps" for suspecting a scummy slot. The fact that you are dismissing the points in this way is bad and I don't find it indicative of a good honest replace in; it leans towards lazy scum.

Not having read the game, it would be hard for you to play well because you can't speak from the perspective of the players that have been here for the full 40+ pages but yet you want a pass for misstating points and pushing bad cases because you refuse to read. I don't give a crap about your meta, you are in this game now. That's how the town gauges replacements by their take on the game as it has transpired from the beginning; you are holding yourself above the rest of us.

You are also using your replace in as an excuse to prolong your life because you have no valid reads until people post; your slot was at L-1 for a reason and its not because the majority of the town are derps. You don't get to just come in here and say, "Ok I'm here stop everything because I refuse to read -- oh and by the way this guy is scum because in the last 2 pages he did so and so."

So don't give me this crap about good play.

[Adam-12]

I would expect good play to actually analyze their slot as an independent player and give an accurate and honest take on it along with the play of the other players

in the context of the game

. That would require reading though, so whoops I guess we won't be getting that; instead the case on Mollie is just derp on principle and this guy over here is scum.

[Adam-12]

You are treating over 40 pages of game is if it is just RVS and it shows.

[Thor665]

What would you consider good play?

You are using your lack of reading the game as a handicap to dismiss solidly established scum tells on principle & misstating the facts as you go.

I have not done this.

I may or may not have got facts wrong, but I've restated the facts *as I understand them* and offered opinions thereupon - that is all anyone can do.
I have dismissed the case on me - but that's because the case is dismissible. I have addressed it, and have explained the case against me as I see it, and then further explained how those things are not scumtells
NO ONE has asked me for further clarification of any point and had me deny them.
If you have issues with how I've addressed a point - bring it up specifically. Otherwise receive a general response to a general complaint.

The fact that you are dismissing the points in this way is bad and I don't find it indicative of a good honest replace in; it leans towards lazy scum.

The fact that you seem to think those terrible points against this slot make this slot scummy is bad and I don't find it indicative of a functional and useful town player, and find it leans towards a player who is tunneling and thinks his case is far more impressive then it really is.
:shrug:
Hint: just because you disagree with my conclusions, does not make my addressing of my case bad. I addressed the case. I found it laughable, yes, but there's a *chance* that maybe the case...just is laughable. AT the point, having someone call the case laughable is what is going to happen. It doesn't make them bad, it makes them accurate. You should probably try to find out *why* I find it laughable, maybe demand that I explain why I find some things to be town tells? Maybe address the SPECIFIC EVIDENCE that I have provided to show why I find stuff to be town tells?

You are also using your replace in as an excuse to prolong your life because you have no valid reads until people post

I have presented multiple viable reads (more, I suspect, then about half the players in this game) also, no one has been saying they would not vote me until I presented those reads (besides *maybe* Mantis) and if you have an issue with that - talk to her. I'm not the one preventing her from voting me.

I would expect good play to actually analyze their slot as an independent player and give an accurate and honest take on it along with the play of the other players

in the context of the game

. That would require reading though, so whoops I guess we won't be getting that; instead the case on Mollie is just derp on principle and this guy over here is scum.

I have analyzed my slot - but I can't do it as an independent player because (shock) I know what role PM the slot received.
I have given an honest take on the slot - you just disagree about whether I've done it honestly.
Game context has not been shown yet to be relevant to anything I've addressed - if it was you would be able to specifically point out how I was able to change a situation without context and have it matter to the tell.
My reading or not reading the game is currently quite immaterial to anything but discussing the case on me...but besides you no one has really even tried to have that conversation...and I've responded to your case with specific answers to your points. Again, you're harping on stuff in a very general sense - you will keep getting general answers.

You should vote ProHawk.

[Thor665]

@Adam - even look at how you respond to my VCA (while having 'context')

"It's bad"

That is a more general call out then I have done to you, I've been much more clear in my reasoning.
I challenged you on that and got as an answer a theory with Thor/Vint scum showing it was bad...and that's a theory I easily showed could not be happening.
My VCA is not 'bad' I just don't think you understand it. In the same way, my answers to your case on me are not bad either - you just don't understand them. You should probably be asking yourself what you could do to put yourself in a position to understand them to make sure you have context when assessing my slot.

Also, could you address 1079 and your read of ProHawk?

[Adam-12]

You have not commented on her play regarding any of the accusations against her in the context of the game. You have simply dismissed them by spinning the townie view or the catch-all "null tell". That's lazy and not how genuine town replaces in.

[Malakittens]

I just realized that I have a possible hole in my panda sock. This does not make me a happy camper.

I'm going to wait for Guile's meta analysis on me before I give you mine on him.

How would genuine town replace in Adam? How do you even know what a genuine town looks like when replaced in? I have only seen a game where you replaced in as scum.

[Adam-12]

@Adam - even look at how you respond to my VCA (while having 'context')

"It's bad"

That is a more general call out then I have done to you, I've been much more clear in my reasoning.
I challenged you on that and got as an answer a theory with Thor/Vint scum showing it was bad...and that's a theory I easily showed could not be happening.
My VCA is not 'bad' I just don't think you understand it. In the same way, my answers to your case on me are not bad either - you just don't understand them. You should probably be asking yourself what you could do to put yourself in a position to understand them to make sure you have context when assessing my slot.

Also, could you address 1079 and your read of ProHawk?

VCA analysis tends to be subjective as it is but when you don't even have a flip, its pure BS. I gave a specific example of how someone who was a newb wouldn't be able to push another case and wouldn't in a position to bus you. I have also stated in this thread that your wagon languished throughout the day and it wasn't clear you would be the lynch & that your move to L-1 was rather sudden. Here's another example: 3 people have been away from this thread all weekend and have not been able to even comment on the recent goings on -- they wouldn't be able to bus you either. Your VCA case on Hawk reeks.

[Adam-12]

How would genuine town replace in Adam?

Please review my posts regarding Thor's replace it contains most of my views.

How do you even know what a genuine town looks like when replaced in? I have only seen a game where you replaced in as scum.

I've played over a number of years and I've also studied a good number of games on this site.

[Malakittens]

Goin to make the counter argument that everyone replaces into a game differently. Not every player is the same. Just sayin'.

[Thor665]

You have not commented on her play regarding any of the accusations against her in the context of the game. You have simply dismissed them by spinning the townie view or the catch-all "null tell". That's lazy and not how genuine town replaces in.

Which dismissals are particularly galling to you?
Specifically?

[borkjerfkin]

Prohawk's responses to Thor getting up in his shit are town (#914, #927, #997, #1008) -- I would think scum would more try to get into it with the point by point rebuttals instead of holding himself above it.

ProHawk #926 is a bad post and shows a lack of big picture thought, but I fail to see how it's scum motivated to say what he said there. #1045 too -- I don't see how scum makes the "you or me" gambit after being so bold and getting resistance, unless you guys are fucking bussing for supercred and I really don't think you are.

As far as Thor, Everything through #888 is pretty null for Thor. #909 is a good response to #896. #915 is a bit scummy -- it's an ineffectual argument as it's not gonna stop a lynch, and it's not going to truly cause an ardent believer in Thorscum to even consider that question until Thor flips town; I feel like Thortown should KNOW that and not try to work that AtE angle.

I started skimming after that point, but #987 did stick out -- Thor:

The truth is there actually is info to get if I flip town, but I don't think you'd like those conclusions.

So is prohawk scum knowing you're flipping town and just really good at WIFOM here since he's under fire immediately after that or are you just barking up the wrong tree? This only gets cred if he's bussing or if he's town really convinced you're scum. Something is wrong here.

anyway:

Thor's mildly scummy here but I never had a great read on the slot pre-Thor.
Prohawk's towntelling overall imo. Not voting him.

Why's Mantis town, everyone who thinks she is? I haven't seen decent reasoning for her reads, just a lot of inquisitive nudges on people without a whole lot of conclusions. Her scumlist in 1005 reads like connections mean that scum would never buddy or bus, which just really looks like someone who's fabricating anti-connections by looking to see who's had any sort of reaction with anybody and ruling those teams out. It's also looking like she's going out of her way not to look like she's OMGUSing me (OMGUS isn't a scumtell but paranoia regarding it is scummy) in 1072.

Other hot seats: I haven't looked at anything either Mala or Levi has posted in the past two days. I'm probably not voting for Levi no matter what he said.

This game is moving too fast for some of the people with more limited availability to keep up with and still post relevant content, imo.

[Malakittens]

I don't even know where my head was going with that. Differently is supposed to be similarity.

[Thor665]

Prohawk's responses to Thor getting up in his Smurf are town (#914, #927, #997, #1008) -- I would think scum would more try to get into it with the point by point rebuttals instead of holding himself above it.

Him ignoring rebuttals he asked for and still sticking to the same case in light of new information is blatantly not pro-town.

I started skimming after that point, but #987 did stick out -- Thor:

The truth is there actually is info to get if I flip town, but I don't think you'd like those conclusions.

So is prohawk scum knowing you're flipping town and just really good at WIFOM here since he's under fire immediately after that or are you just barking up the wrong tree? This only gets cred if he's bussing or if he's town really convinced you're scum. Something is wrong here.

Did you notice the flow of the wagon? It was a go, then I replaced in, then he tried to push it over the edge on questionable logic, then I challenged him, he avoided discussion and tried to bulldog it through...and then recently claimed some sort of 'backing off' moment even though literally nothing changed in how he's acting. He's trying to disassociate himself with the wagon.

Why's Mantis town, everyone who thinks she is?

For me it was when she disagreed with Adam and said she thought my slot should have time to talk.

This game is moving too fast for some of the people with more limited availability to keep up with and still post relevant content, imo.

[Adam-12]

Goin to make the counter argument that everyone replaces into a game differently. Not every player is the same. Just sayin'.

His bad dismissal of the accusations and bad case on Hawk is not indicative of a townie replace. I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt by pointing out that if he had read the thread he would be better able to assure us of his alignment. As it is, he just expects us to trust him but he hasn't done anything to earn that trust.

[borkjerfkin]

As it is, he just expects us to trust him but he hasn't done anything to earn that trust.

this is a towntell if anything.

[Thor665]

You have not commented on her play regarding any of the accusations against her in the context of the game. You have simply dismissed them by spinning the townie view or the catch-all "null tell". That's lazy and not how genuine town replaces in.

Which dismissals are particularly galling to you?
Specifically?

[Adam-12]

Why's Mantis town, everyone who thinks she is?

For me it was when she disagreed with Adam and said she thought my slot should have time to talk.

Well we agree on Mantis being town but she wasn't disagreeing with me about not giving you time to talk.

[Adam-12]

You have not commented on her play regarding any of the accusations against her in the context of the game. You have simply dismissed them by spinning the townie view or the catch-all "null tell". That's lazy and not how genuine town replaces in.

Which dismissals are particularly galling to you?
Specifically?

Yes I saw this. Will be posting at some point. Just got onto lunch break.

[Adam-12]

As it is, he just expects us to trust him but he hasn't done anything to earn that trust.

this is a towntell if anything.

LOL. You and Thor are one of a kind.