Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[ChannelDelibird]

Prodding Mr. Cesar.

[Thoth]

Tamuz was not my top choice for revival, but let's see how it works out. Difficult to decide who to go for now. Probably still C_D as my first choice. I always dislike people putting on a 'lynch + 1'-vote, but lordy was not on my potential voting list anyhow.

[M4yhem]

Since this particular corner of the universe hasn’t ended (yay!) I’m pleased to announced that we have so real information at last: Tamuz and Yos are not scum together. That’s news to me, if not to the two of them. Of course, either of them could be scum on his own, but it does mean we can trust what they say about each other. To a certain extent.


The choice today is easy and obvious.

vote:M4yhem

I'm still remembering some scummy behavior from him early on.

Be more specific. I can refute you if you explain what you mean.

Also note that he also had a somewhat odd looking vote for Mr. Ceasar.

1. Until Mr.Cesar is dead and scum, you have no reason to assume that voting for him is scummy.
2. I did it for kicks. So sue me.

How much more protown do I have to be before you revive me, Yos? What do I have to do, explain or answer to get you to change your mind?

Can you not see that the fact that Al_Kohaulec has been agreeing with popular opinion

all the time

is a bad sign? Or are you in cahoots?

[M4yhem]

EBWOP: sigh, 'some real information' not 'so real information'.

[Yosarian2]

1. Until Mr.Cesar is dead and scum, you have no reason to assume that voting for him is scummy.

No, we don't have enough information to really "assume" anything. But like I said, it seems wierd to me that a few people voted for him for such weak reasons. Because of the nature of the game, that naturally makes me suspicious of him and, to a lesser extent, some of the people voting for him.

How much more protown do I have to be before you revive me, Yos? What do I have to do, explain or answer to get you to change your mind?

It's hard to say, really. I'm mostly going on gut feelings here. Early in the game, I was suspicious of you, and I've learned not to avoid early day 1 gut feelings in mafia games. That being said, I am always willing to be convinced, and like I said your later behavior does look more pro-town , but I'm not sure what offhand you could do to convince me at this moment. Sorry.

Can you not see that the fact that Al_Kohaulec has been agreeing with popular opinion

all the time

is a bad sign? Or are you in cahoots?

Heh. Well, I kind of see what you mean, but it's worth mentioning that he was just accused of the exact same thing in another game I'm playing with him. Of course, he might be scum there for all I know, and I'm not going to discuss ongoing games in any detail, but at the moment I'm thinking that he might just have a "consider all points of view" kind of playstyle.

[yellowbounder]

Sorry guys, haven't posted recently, everything moving far too fast. Should be able to create an analyitical post soon within the next twenty four hours.

[al_kohaulec]

@M4yhem, I've been agreeing with what I agree with, not what's necessarily popular opinion.

I'm interested in hearing what yb has to say.

[M4yhem]

No, we don't have enough information to really "assume" anything. But like I said, it seems wierd to me that a few people voted for him for such weak reasons. Because of the nature of the game, that naturally makes me suspicious of him and, to a lesser extent, some of the people voting for him.

I’m pretty sure voting for Mr.Cesar was a joke/reaction getter on my part. I don’t consider that weird at all. But I think I’m less serious about my votes than other people. Similaraly, themanhimself voted for Mr.Cesar. That seems to have been just for fun. This is a game after all, and so I expect a certain amount of clowning around, espicially in the early stages or at point when disscussion slow down. The only Mr.Cesar voter who

I

fing suspicious is Crash, because he seems serious about the whole thing. But if he was scum with Mr.Cesar, I’d be dissapointed. Pretty sure Crash is a better player than that.

Now, if you find the Mr.Cesar voting suspicious, imagine how your interaction with Al_Kohaulec looks from my end. He’s one of the first to vote for you and since then you and him have been saying nothing but nice things about each other. You agree with the claiming thing when it comes from him, but not when it comes from anyone else. You’ve got a cute little mutual support club going.

There are other people who fit this pattern as well though. Take Chaotic and Thoth. Thoth turned on me once I got in a fight with Chaotic, and said that he’d agreed with

everything

Chaotic said. C_D tried to revive Thoth for much of yesterday, and Thoth is now trying to revive C_D. I find that amusing. And sinister...

Early in the game, I was suspicious of you, and I've learned not to avoid early day 1 gut feelings in mafia games.

Ah, the good ole ‘gut feeling’ arguement. There’s nothing I can say to disprove that, as you well know. All I can suggest is maybe you had too much cheese for lunch? Or perhaps you need more fiber in your diet?

As for my gut, I try to ignore it, cause it’s wrong as often as it’s right. Having said that, in the newbie game I was in I had these strong feelings that Crash was scum, but I left him alone because there was no evidence against him. It’s a similar thing now with Al_Ko; he’s done nothing that I can point to as scummy, but I feel like there’s something wrong.

Heh. Well, I kind of see what you mean, but it's worth mentioning that he was just accused of the exact same thing in another game I'm playing with him. Of course, he might be scum there for all I know, and I'm not going to discuss ongoing games in any detail, but at the moment I'm thinking that he might just have a "consider all points of view" kind of playstyle.

The problem is that this is exactly the arguement you

would

make if you were scum with him.
I am also in another game with him, and I’ve come to a totally different conclusion than you. But we can discuss ongoing games, so we’ll have to wait and see.

Al_Kohaulec- My problem is that what you agree with covers

everything

at one point or other.
Here’s your chance to take a stand:
1. If you had to dayvig two people

right now

who would it be? Give reasons.
2. If you had the power to revive two people, apart from yourself, who would they be? Give reasons.
3. If you had to unvive either Yos or Tamuz, who would you pick? Give reasons.

[al_kohaulec]

Now, if you find the Mr.Cesar voting suspicious, imagine how your interaction with Al_Kohaulec looks from my end. He’s one of the first to vote for you and since then you and him have been saying nothing but nice things about each other. You agree with the claiming thing when it comes from him, but not when it comes from anyone else. You’ve got a cute little mutual support club going.

I don't believe he's been saying anything nice about me, or been in favor of reviving me until after my mention on the mass claim. Before that I don't remember any mention of him wanting to revive me.

Your C_D/Thoth interaction is something I'm going to look into myself.


Yay! Questions:

1. If you had to dayvig two people right now who would it be? Give reasons.

There's only two ppl alive, so them both obv.

Ok, seriously now. Earlier in the game I would've leaned towards YB, but I'm going to have to wait more before I make more of a decision there. I was thinking he's scum before, now I think I need more information. For now the two I'd probably dayvig would be CTD and M4yhem probably. CTD has done a lot of bandwagonning and as you two say about the Mr. C votes, joking, and so he hasn't really helped us. I could see him as scum, and he's not contributing much to any discussion.

As for you, I had given you the benefit of the doubt before, but then you start attacking me and others on some very horrible logic, I still don't believe that a Mr. C was "just a joke" and even if it was, that could've started an easy bandwagon (see CTD) and didn't help us at all. You guys were posting actual reasons for wanting him revived, I don't think it was just a joke.

I've also thought about Lordy. He's helped some, but not a whole lot. He hasn't contributed much. He's been acting protown so far, but I need to see more from him.

2. If you had the power to revive two people, apart from yourself, who would they be? Give reasons.

Well, Yos is already revived, but two players still in limbo...
Hmm... C_D was probably one of my best choices earlier, but I didn't want to revive him at first due to his interaction with player's like Yos, and since then I haven't been too sure of him. I'll have to get back to you on this question after I look people over some more.

3. If you had to unvive either Yos or Tamuz, who would you pick? Give reasons.

I'm happy with both of them revived, I would like to keep them both revived if I could, but if I had to unvive one... maybe Yos. Like I said, I'd like to keep them both revived, but I've seen a lot of good insightful and helpful posting from Tamuz lately. He may not be making as many or as big posts as Yos is, but he is providing a lot of his own insight.

[Yosarian2]

I’m pretty sure voting for Mr.Cesar was a joke/reaction getter on my part. I don’t consider that weird at all. But I think I’m less serious about my votes than other people. Similaraly, themanhimself voted for Mr.Cesar. That seems to have been just for fun. This is a game after all, and so I expect a certain amount of clowning around, espicially in the early stages or at point when disscussion slow down. The only Mr.Cesar voter who

I

fing suspicious is Crash, because he seems serious about the whole thing. But if he was scum with Mr.Cesar, I’d be dissapointed. Pretty sure Crash is a better player than that.

I don't like the "pretty sure crash is a better player then that" argument. Scum really need to get at least one of their own revived soon if they're going to have a chance. So I wouldn't be suprised if scum give each other more direct support then you'd see in a normal game; sure, it's a risk, but they might think it's one they have to take.

As for your vote, yeah, I didn't find your Cesar vote quite as scummy as Crash's, which is why I didn't make as big a deal about it.

Now, if you find the Mr.Cesar voting suspicious, imagine how your interaction with Al_Kohaulec looks from my end. He’s one of the first to vote for you and since then you and him have been saying nothing but nice things about each other. You agree with the claiming thing when it comes from him, but not when it comes from anyone else. You’ve got a cute little mutual support club going.

Again, your mass claiming plan and his plan looked very different.

Look at it from my point of view, ok? At the point when he proposed it, I knew that the town had revived a good guy, me. If we had then went on to revive a cop and a doc, I knew we would be in amazingly good shape. Can you see how tempting that plan looked from my point of view?

In fact, I eventually came to the conclusion that any game-breaking plan as seemingly obveous as "cop and doc claim, town wins" would probably have been prevented by the mod in the game design; perhaps by not having a doc, or by having an insane cop, or by some other method. Still, unless the scum have some way of knowing that for sure beforehand, I wouldn't think it likely that a scum would suggest a plan like that.

There are other people who fit this pattern as well though. Take Chaotic and Thoth. Thoth turned on me once I got in a fight with Chaotic, and said that he’d agreed with

everything

Chaotic said. C_D tried to revive Thoth for much of yesterday, and Thoth is now trying to revive C_D. I find that amusing. And sinister...

That is true. It is a fact that you're inherenlty more likely to trust someone who seems to trust you, which is why many scum stratagies to "win someone over to your side" can work. However, let me go back and take another look at them.

Early in the game, I was suspicious of you, and I've learned not to avoid early day 1 gut feelings in mafia games.

Ah, the good ole ‘gut feeling’ arguement. There’s nothing I can say to disprove that, as you well know. All I can suggest is maybe you had too much cheese for lunch? Or perhaps you need more fiber in your diet?

As for my gut, I try to ignore it, cause it’s wrong as often as it’s right. Having said that, in the newbie game I was in I had these strong feelings that Crash was scum, but I left him alone because there was no evidence against him. It’s a similar thing now with Al_Ko; he’s done nothing that I can point to as scummy, but I feel like there’s something wrong.

(shrug) My guts' not always right, but I've found that it's right more often then i would expect, and I've very often regretted not trusting my feeling about someone more.

Having said that, you have been looking more pro-town lately then you were at the start of the game, which is why you moved up from my "Will never revive" list, where you were on day .25, to my"probably won't revive" list.

The problem is that this is exactly the arguement you

would

make if you were scum with him.

(shrug) You asked a question about what I thought about his general playstyle and behavior so far this game, and I'm giving you my best interpretation based on what I've seen. Interpret that any way you like.

[chaotic_diablo]

m4yhem, your trying awfully hard to prevent my revival, not that I would consider it due to my recent lack of posts.

Aside from that, support for Thoth was brief, as opposed to what you said as "much of yesterday." In fact, you can claim that I supported Tamuz the longest and that is probably more truth than with Thoth.

Mr.C is going overboard. No matter the arguments behind it, there is nothing there that suggests that he will be a good person on the podium.

As of now, no one is a good candidate. However, I could say that I'd only consider Thoth just to mock m4yhem.

CrashTextDummie: logic deficiency, revive Mr.C? no way
yellowbounder: lack of post
Thoth: lack of posts
M4yhem: egotistic, "I'm the only good candidate for revival!"
al_kohaulec: indecisive, 5-10 pages of stuff that all ended with "screw this"
Twito: lack of posts
themanhimself: questionable claim
chaotic_diablo: jerk, screw you
lordy: not enough contribution
Mr. César: don't ask

[Twito]

I wonder if I will ever have time to reread all the posts..
Anyways I'm around.

And still I wish not to be revived yet.
Then again who I want revived? Hmm..
Someone who doesn't try too hard to be revived I guess. For townsperson it shouldn't matter that much. And who fits to this category? Dunno need to read the thread first..

[Tamuz]

I'd recommend to the town choosing someone who neither Yos or I support (Mainly Yos from my perspective, but I sympathize with the town, so someone I don't support as well) so that there is a smaller chance of us losing so quickly.

Of course, I understand opposal to this reccomendation.

I'll come back and reread Pg 10 because I haven't read closely or addressed anything from this page forth.

[Twito]

I'd recommend to the town choosing someone who neither Yos or I support (Mainly Yos from my perspective, but I sympathize with the town, so someone I don't support as well) so that there is a smaller chance of us losing so quickly.

Of course, I understand opposal to this reccomendation.

I'll come back and reread Pg 10 because I haven't read closely or addressed anything from this page forth.

And Tamuz is revived? Good sounds good. Yos's revival I didn't really support..

[Yosarian2]

As of now, no one is a good candidate.

I understand the sentiment, but we are going to have to revive someone today. If you had to pick someone, who would it be? Which person do you distrust the least at this moment in time?

[chaotic_diablo]

If I had to choose someone, it would be CTD. Not only does is he not in favor of both players who have been revived, but he is also the one who thinks differently. Whether he is scum or not, I'm not sure.

At the moment, I distrust Mr.C. He's had people argue for him on the reasons on why he should be revived.

[M4yhem]

Al_Kohaulec- Thank you for your answers. I’ll put them in my files _.
As for the Mr.Cesar thing, I can’t believe you really think it wasn’t a joke on my part. In the actual post where I vote Mr.Cesar, the only reason I give for the vote is ‘aye aye captain Crash’ or some other such nonsense. Then I spend the rest of the post attacking Crashie’s case for reviving Mr.Cesar. As for starting an easy bandwagon, I was the only vote on Mr.C at the time. Am I really supposed to believe that six votes would appear for him out of thin air? Consider how long it took to revive Tamuz when there were actual good reasons for reviving him.

You day-vig selection does not make me happy Attacking people I how I play the game. There’s not much evidence floating around at this stage, so naturally some of my logic will look crappy. That’s ok by me, because I’m more concerned with getting people’s reactions than building a credible case at this stage. This seems to be a clash of playstyles to me. I’m guessing you like to have lots of evidence before attacking someone. I don’t have the patience for that.

I don't like the "pretty sure crash is a better player then that" argument. Scum really need to get at least one of their own revived soon if they're going to have a chance. So I wouldn't be suprised if scum give each other more direct support then you'd see in a normal game; sure, it's a risk, but they might think it's one they have to take.

Consider it analogous to your ‘Al’s playstyle’ argument. I’ve seen Crash as scum, and he’s subtle and devious. He’s more than capable of building a proper case on his scummbuddy if he needs to. I would be genuinely disappointed is he was scum with Mr.Cesar. Think about it. If the scum come in threes like normal games, Crash would have another buddy somewhere, who presumably is acting less wacko than Mr.C. So what would he gain from trying to revive the guy that it’s obvious no-one wants to revive? I agree that scum will be more direct in this game, but there’s direct and then there’s

stupid

. Crash is not stupid.

Too lazy to quote the rest of your stuff but some quick points:
I know the plans look different on the page, but I had actually thought of Al’s plan in my head, which is why I overreacted to you praising him for it. Of course you’re unlikly to believe me but I thought I’d tell you anyway. I agree it’s a good plan, but it’s really up to the cop & doc to decide, isn’t it. I imagine that our marvellous mod will have thought of something to counter it, like the cop can only investigate living people, so that we’re still in the dark when reviving people.

Doesn’t it bother you at all when I accuse you of being scum with somebody? I would be up in arms if you falsely accused me.

I agree about the trust issue. If you are town, Al could still be scum that’s buttering up to you. I like to see a little more paranoia.

And oh wow, I’m all the way to ‘probably won’t revive’ already? Let’s start dancing!

m4yhem, your trying awfully hard to prevent my revival, not that I would consider it due to my recent lack of posts.

Because I think you’re scummy.

I’m sure you can understand, if town, since you’re doing the same thing to me.

Aside from that, support for Thoth was brief, as opposed to what you said as "much of yesterday." In fact, you can claim that I supported Tamuz the longest and that is probably more truth than with Thoth.

Ok, I exaggerated. The mutual support is still there. Plus, Tamuz was the popular choice. Your support for him is therefore meaningless.

However, I could say that I'd only consider Thoth just to mock m4yhem.

Go ahead. As long as you understand that you’re setting yourself up for pages upon pages of ‘ZOMG!!! C_D and Thoth are scum!!11!!!! type spam.

M4yhem: egotistic, "I'm the only good candidate for revival!"

Look at your own list. I

am

the best candidate for revival.

I'd recommend to the town choosing someone who neither Yos or I support (Mainly Yos from my perspective, but I sympathize with the town, so someone I don't support as well) so that there is a smaller chance of us losing so quickly.

Well I do believe that would be me. Although it also fits Mr.C and Crash, to a certain extent. Yos doesn’t seem to be all that fond of my revival, anyway.

Twito- Badlogic. I’m town and it matters to me. I want to win.

If I had to choose someone, it would be CTD. Not only does is he not in favor of both players who have been revived, but he is also the one who thinks differently.

And I suppose I’ve always been the one agreeing with popular opinion? Never had any controversial ideas of my own, and so forth?

[chaotic_diablo]

Because I think you’re scummy. I’m sure you can understand, if town, since you’re doing the same thing to me.

Yes, I'm doing the same thing minus the effort.

Ok, I exaggerated. The mutual support is still there. Plus, Tamuz was the popular choice. Your support for him is therefore meaningless.

Yes, you exaggerate. That makes your point meaningless. Don't try to make a small point important by stating that it is still 'there.'
My support for Tamuz isn't meaningless since I was the first to endorse him. Popular or not, I had him on my list before anyone else. You probably supported him out of popular opinion so that makes your own support meaningless.

Go ahead. As long as you understand that you’re setting yourself up for pages upon pages of ‘ZOMG!!! C_D and Thoth are scum!!11!!!! type spam.

Sure, go ahead. Make yourself look stupid.

Look at your own list. I

am

the best candidate for revival

I looked at my list, and your

not

the best candidate on my list.

And I suppose I’ve always been the one agreeing with popular opinion? Never had any controversial ideas of my own, and so forth?

Nope, not one. Sarcasm gets you nowhere.

[ChannelDelibird]

Zindaras replaces Mr. Cesar as soon as he picks up his role PM.

[Zindaras]

This is a big game.

I will need time to read it.

[M4yhem]

Hi Zindaras

C_D- What I find interesting is the way you seem to be playing down your connection to Thoth. This is in contrast to the way Yos straight-up admitted that he looked more favorably on Al_Ko because they agreed with each other. Why would you want to play down your connection to Thoth? I wonder...

Some of your remarks are bordering on flamebaiting again, which is odd because I thought I was being polite-ish when I addressed you.

Anyway, the main arguement against Crashy is the Dummie/Mr.Cesar interaction. So what do you make of that?

Alky, Yos- You both said you'd look at the C_D/ Thoth thing. What did you find?

[Zindaras]

Did a really quick skim, and I must say I agree with my predecessor:

I HAVE to revive omfglol!

Or something.

Whatever.

I did a complete read up till Page 5 or something, made notes, will post more extensively later, but until then, this will have to suffice.

I can see Yos as scum, at this point, though this may change as I read more. I don't trust M4yhem. I don't trust alko. I'm seeing interactions between theman, yellowbounder, M4yhem and CTD.

Not for reviving alko, M4yhem. For reviving myself. I'm not seeing a whole lot of town vibes here at the moment, so noone else.

My opinions are suspect to change.

[Zindaras]

Oh yeah, Thoth. Seeing a link between Thoth and Yos/Alko as well.

[M4yhem]

Bah. Nobody trusts me.

Zindaras, any reason you want to be revived so bad?

[Yosarian2]

As for the Mr.Cesar thing, I can’t believe you really think it wasn’t a joke on my part. In the actual post where I vote Mr.Cesar, the only reason I give for the vote is ‘aye aye captain Crash’ or some other such nonsense. Then I spend the rest of the post attacking Crashie’s case for reviving Mr.Cesar.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to think of your cesar vote at this time. If we ever do find out what Ceaser/ Zindaras's alignment is, I'll take another look at it then.

I know the plans look different on the page, but I had actually thought of Al’s plan in my head, which is why I overreacted to you praising him for it. Of course you’re unlikly to believe me but I thought I’d tell you anyway.

(shrug) Well, I don't disbelieve you, but the way you had proposed the plan on day 1, you had suggested a mass claim, which has several negitive features tat would have hurt the town that Al's plan didn't have. For example, in Al's plan, people like vigs don't claim; we really might need a vig later in the game, it's a quite important townie power role in this setup, but I think having a vig claim now would hurt the town a good deal.

I agree it’s a good plan, but it’s really up to the cop & doc to decide, isn’t it. I imagine that our marvellous mod will have thought of something to counter it, like the cop can only investigate living people, so that we’re still in the dark when reviving people.

Yeah, agreed.

Note that we could actually still put the plan into effect if we wanted to; we could revive the cop today, then revive the doc day 2; it'd come out to the same thing doing it on day .5 and .75 because scum can't kill night one. At this point, though, I'm not sure it's a good idea, for the reasons you and I have mentioned..

However, the thing I was pointing out was that most of the possible problems I could see with the plan, like a cop with sanity problems, or a cop who can't investigate people in limbo, or not having a doctor, ect, are all things that the scum most likely wouldn't know. So, if scum have no way of knowing what could go wrong with the plan, why would a scum suggest it? (shrug) Again, this is just based on the way I think, but I know that when I'm scum the one of the last things I would want to do would be to actually propose a plan that could win the game for the town unless the mod had carefully planned for it in advance.

Doesn’t it bother you at all when I accuse you of being scum with somebody? I would be up in arms if you falsely accused me.

Eh; you've been accusing me of being scum for most of the game (although you did suddenly turn around and revive me at the end of day .25, which still confuses me). Why would I get all upset about it now?

And oh wow, I’m all the way to ‘probably won’t revive’ already? Let’s start dancing!

Alky, Yos- You both said you'd look at the C_D/ Thoth thing. What did you find?

Hmm. Thoth seemed to be supporting CD, using much the same words he was using to support me on day 1.

The one thing I do find odd on the subject is this one post of Chaotic Diablo.

m4yhem, WIFOM already covered by al_ko, I won't go over it again.

No backpeddling, because I disagree that good scum wouldn’t be predictable. They will use the behaviour that helps them win, even if I say in thread that that is what they’re doing.
4. The problem with this argument is that I didn’t suggest a plan at all. I explained how I thought scum might act and you freaked out for some reason.
5. I’m not sure you’re reading what I write. I would notice them, because by being overaggressive they draw attention to themselves, including my attention..
6.This point is basically useless flamebait, isn’t it?

4. You accused me of not having a plan. Here are you exact words:

And what’s your alternative plan? Oh, I’m sorry, you didn’t make one, did you? NOT HELPFUL.

Your definitely backpeddling.
5. I'm reading, but your straying off your main point.
6. Yes, it is a flame. However, I'm not the only one who can be accused of it. If you want, I can pick out several examples.

Thoth, you took out 9 people on your list. The only ones left are al_ko and I. Is there a chance that you might reconsider adding more onto that list in the near future?

I don't quite agree with the random thing for reasons already explained by others.

At the moment, Thoth is on top with Tamuz second. No one else is on the list yet, but I'll add more.

vote Thoth

CD, was there any spcific reason for your Thoth vote at this point? You never really laid it out.