Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

When I don't immediately get into the game from the get-go, I tend to ignore the game because I'm not emotionally attached to it.

This is why I can't replace into games anymore. I'm out of energy and time. Got to make a dollar, gotta contribute to making this world suck less. Mafia games get pushed because it becomes more and more effort as pages pile onto each other.

That being said, I am now going to post content.

Matt is playing badly and reminds me of Justin Bieber here. It feels like he's spinning his wheels with every post.

I think lack of emulating that specific form of scumhunting is far more likely to come from you as scum. As Town, you'd be naturally doing it, because you trust your methods to work. Avoiding that method makes no sense as Town and creates handily WIFOM for scum Matt.

This is pretty much my favorite post in the game so far. That said, the post below is credible:

I'm inclined to beleive that Matt is distracted by the Thanksgiving holiday and shit with his family at the moment. Should his current level of play continue after this weekend, I'll re-evaluate my read on him.

I really hate when a game starts at the beginning of a holiday...I may be Canadian but our clients are mostly American so we vacation with them.

About tajo's plan or Yos' plan or Kinetic's plan, I am against them all. I just want to play mafia the good old way and scumhunt as we did for half a decade without using mathematics and tables and timestamps. Come on guys, this is meant to be entertaining, not frustrating. I won't participate in any plan.

You should Heal kdowns as per this:

scooby Heals ABR
ABR Heals scooby
LLD Heals PeregrineV
Xalxe-charter Heals kdowns

Zdenek Heals Yosarian2

and then vote MattP. Scum #2 is keeping a vote tally.


To scooby, ABR and LLD: the bolded in my quote still needs to happen.

Either we do it like cowboys and shoot off our suspects or we play the civilized normal way and vote each other. I don't understand why we need to heal and quite frankly I don't completely understand the rules yet so if someone wants to explain to me why I'm supposed to heal scooby that would be great.

Yeah, I'm rusty as hell. Don't say it.

Yes, vote MattP, VOTE: vote MattP all the way.

How does claiming simply when you use rage out power roles?

The case on Matt, while it had reasonable beginnings, has become somewhat unbelievable. For purely wifom reasons, I think he's probably town, so I guess I don't care if you want to kill him, but I'm looking elsewhere.

This is hella scummy bro.

Okay, fine. I actually don't give a shit about your read on zdnek. I do care about you dodging a question, again. Now answer Yosarian's question.

Why are you so interested in my dodging questions?

Why do you continue to do it?

(Two can play at this game mister, and it won't go anywhere)

Guys....

what are you doing

GUys...

STAHP

The fact that Kinectic and I are arguing over the proper number to "lynch" a player and 11 others seem to have no opinion or don't chime in in any way shape or form does not bode well.

Again, I'm not here to do math. Why not let it play out organically?

Posts like 517 make me think that PeregrineV is town. At least one scum attacking him for sure, most likely Kinetic retaliating against PeregriveV's seemingly genuine cowboy hit, from what apparently started as a minor argument about the right number to lynch at. My first impression on Kinetic is good acting over vicious revenge. He could be doing it just to get the game moving or to protect himself, but the dramatic posts are silly and scummy. He's more mature than that lol

Right now, top town reads are PeregrineV and Tierce, while scum reads are Matt, Kinetic and Zdnek.

[Xalxe]

How does it work if he flips town?

We know that his intent wasn't to get things off of him, and that he believed what he was saying and can proceed accordingly.

Would you say that you usually use lynched townie's reads to inform your own?

No, because I'm a shit player. Do I recognize that it

should

be done? Yes. In fact, if you pop a look at me on D2 of Matt's favorite game of mine to refer to (Newbie 1289), I spend a decent amount of time figuring out fuck-all based on the nightkill and why a random newbie was killed.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Well ok, it's only stupid in principle, not in this particular circumstance. We need to stick with the rules, we can't break them willy-nilly. In this case, it is clear that there's a consensus, so it's nbd etc.

I may have overstated things a bit, but basically, the "rules" if there is any breakdown in them, is being caused exclusively by PeregrineV.

[Kinetic]

For Peregrine, it looks like there is more than enough support, and since he's hurting back I don't really care about getting to 7, since we have at least 6 anyway. Having more votes can only be positive.

In post 464, Kinetic wrote:
PV needs to die NOW. The longer we wait the more hurts on town he can commit with impunity. Anyone delaying at this point is going to get a strong look from my book (I'm looking at you Zd with your "convenient" unvote).

Fuck off.
In post 488, Kinetic wrote:
Your scum colleagues are probably playing it smart right now and not going to out themselves to save you.

Now this?

I'd really like everyone to notice the cognitive dissonance in Kinetic's posting here: he goes from attacking me for unvoting to casting doubt on people not sticking their necks out.

The auto-killing people who hurt outside of the rules is a terrible idea and will only cause problems.

How's that for cognitive dissonance. You don't agree with yourself in the same post? Also, where is your hurt on PV? Or vote for that matter?

[Zdenek]

In fact, if you pop a look at me on D2 of Matt's favorite game of mine to refer to (Newbie 1289), I spend a decent amount of time figuring out fuck-all based on the nightkill and why a random newbie was killed.

Well, there is a difference between NK analysis, and lynched townie analysis, but whatever.

[Zdenek]

This is hella scummy bro.

Which of my points did you disagree with?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Which of my points did you disagree with?

The part where you're like "this case started good". It's day one and with no additional info, if someone is scummy it sticks to them, forever. It's not like you claw your way out of a bad spot. You post scummy things, people attack you for it, that's the normal way of things, and even if people invent bad extra reasons that you're scum, that doesn't cancel the original reasons people had for suspecting you.

[Zdenek]

How's that for cognitive dissonance. You don't agree with yourself in the same post? Also, where is your hurt on PV? Or vote for that matter?

What are you talking about?

I'm not voting or hurting him because apparently he's claimed, and I couldn't find his claim in his posts, and there's no way that I am going to vote or hurt him until I've seen it.

[Zdenek]

Which of my points did you disagree with?

The part where you're like "this case started good". It's day one and with no additional info, if someone is scummy it sticks to them, forever. It's not like you claw your way out of a bad spot. You post scummy things, people attack you for it, that's the normal way of things, and even if people invent bad extra reasons that you're scum, that doesn't cancel the original reasons people had for suspecting you.

There are piles of cases that get made at the beginnings of games that are reasonable. That doesn't mean that as the game goes on those cases remain good cases to base a lynch on.

[Kinetic]

How's that for cognitive dissonance. You don't agree with yourself in the same post? Also, where is your hurt on PV? Or vote for that matter?

What are you talking about?

I'm not voting or hurting him because apparently he's claimed, and I couldn't find his claim in his posts, and there's no way that I am going to vote or hurt him until I've seen it.

He claimed "town" that's it. He hasn't claimed anything else and he's lying otherwise. I can't find a claim, you can't find a claim, Yos can't find a claim. One of us might have missed it, but all three of us? I will be quite surprised if he pulls up a post where he claimed and I missed it as well. Maybe he posted it in his Scum QT a forgot it wasn't in the main thread...

[Albert B. Rampage]

Which of my points did you disagree with?

The part where you're like "this case started good". It's day one and with no additional info, if someone is scummy it sticks to them, forever. It's not like you claw your way out of a bad spot. You post scummy things, people attack you for it, that's the normal way of things, and even if people invent bad extra reasons that you're scum, that doesn't cancel the original reasons people had for suspecting you.

There are piles of cases that get made at the beginnings of games that are reasonable. That doesn't mean that as the game goes on those cases remain good cases to base a lynch on.

In theory, that's true, but it's enough to suspect. And in Matt's case I think he's the best candidate for lynch today.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Damn, Yosarian, how do you still kick it the same after all these years? You don't get bored lol

[Tierce]

Zdenek--still won't be tonight. I'd prefer to evaluate Kinetic after PeregrineV's flip, but let's see if I can be bothered to :effort: tomorrow.

As for PeregrineV's claim, the only thing he did was claim Duke Berith, and essentially claimed VT by saying he had already claimed after that. The fact that he did it on a Hurt, when supposedly he was hoping to brake things down and get more 'discussion', frankly does not impress me.

[Tierce]

Pseudo Votecount 1.6

(5)

PeregrineV

- Tierce, quadz08, Kinetic, Voidedmafia, Yosarian2
(2)

MattP

- Xalxe, Albert B. Rampage
(1)

Kinetic

- PeregrineV

(0)

Albert B. Rampage

-

(Yosarian2)

(5)

Not voting

-

(Albert B. Rampage,)

kanyeknowsbest, scooby, MattP, Lady Lambdadelta, Zdenek


Let me know if there are any mistakes.

[Tierce]

Either we do it like cowboys and shoot off our suspects or we play the civilized normal way and vote each other. I don't understand why we need to heal and quite frankly I don't completely understand the rules yet so if someone wants to explain to me why I'm supposed to heal scooby that would be great.

We lose one HP per Heal we do to others. However, we also gain one HP at Rage Accumulation if we first used it on a Heal; so you would be losing one HP now, but would regain it when you accumulate Rage. It's a way of topping everyone's health, though it takes time--we essentially have one free Heal per Rage accumulation period.

[Albert B. Rampage]

HEAL: Scooby

[Yosarian2]

Now that we've started, and he's started shooting back, we need to kill him quickly before he does much damage.

Why didn't you heal Kinetic instead? He was down one, and you think he's town.

I intend to heal Kinetic as soon as I regenerate the hitpoint I used at the start of the game. Of course, you will hopefully be dead before that happens.

If you want to convince me that hurting Kinetic is somehow justified, then explain how hurting Kinetic and thus forcing the rest of the town to waste resources healing him back up helps the town.

[Yosarian2]

Either we do it like cowboys and shoot off our suspects or we play the civilized normal way and vote each other. I don't understand why we need to heal and quite frankly I don't completely understand the rules yet so if someone wants to explain to me why I'm supposed to heal scooby that would be great.

Everyone healing everyone will boost everyone to HP+1 as soon as the next rage point comes.

Over the course of the game, the only kill the scum are likely to get is based on them doing hitpoint damage to us, probably with rage (or possibly rage + actual attacks, depending on how blatent they want to be). They might get more rage then we do, we don't know. In any case, everyone being at hp +1 should make it harder for scum to kill anyone, and it doesn't significantly interfere with our being able to lynch people.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The second you hurt him Kinetic, even if it's within the rules, it opens him up to hurt you back if he thinks your scum. No player should ever have to sit there and watch as the town kills them without being able to present their own case.

No.

If you are town, and the town has decided to lynch you, your job is to A: convince the town to not lynch you, and B: convince the town to lynch someone else instead. Just like in any other game. Firing random shots at that point is totally unhelpful, and is pure anti-town behavior.

Keep defending yourself until the point of death, sure, keep making cases against other people, but attacking is bad, and could easily push us in to MAD syndrome.

I have a major problem with this once people start hurting someone I find it VERY unlikely they'll stop. I don't know, you might be right about the MAD thing but I am still very very concerned with accountability in this game. (If you haven't noticed from all my theory posts basically being about this >.>b).

Can you suggest to me a better way of making people who hurt onto a wagon accountable for their hurts? I mean as always I'm all ears to suggestions about theory for this game, especially if it gets the theory crafting out of the way so we can actually scum hunt.

Peregrine, was the QT not released by Flay or one of the scum members?

[Yosarian2]

And I've already claimed, so why the fake request?

I went back to look at your posts, and this is all I see:

That's cool. Bring it bitches.

From the lowest depths of hell, Duke Berith unleashes the pain of a thousand lost souls. It strikes the warty hide of the disguised angel Kinetic, and pain shoots through him like fire and short-circuits his hidden halo.

HURT: Kinetic

Was that supposed to be a claim? Are you planning to do anything more then a name-claim?

I mean, if you don't want to claim, then fine, we'll just continue killing you, but all this thrashing around about me "shutting off discussion" and calling me giving you a last chance a "fake request" just makes you look more scummy to me.

If you wanted to discuss stuff more, if you didn't want to force our hand, then you shouldn't have shot. And the fact that you're STILL saying you are going to continue shooting just makes it worse. Do you really think the rest of the town is just going to sit back and let you and Kinetic slowly ping each other to death? That would be pretty much the dumbest thing we could possibly do.

Here, let me make this simple for you: confirm right now that you're not going to shoot at all again today unless the votes agree with you, or else it's time to post any last words you want to say before you die. We have no time for anything else.

[Yosarian2]

Can you suggest to me a better way of making people who hurt onto a wagon accountable for their hurts?

I'm not sure how that's really an issue. Everyone can always be held accountable for any decision they make in a mafia game. When I decide to hurt someone, then I would expect everyone to analyze it and decide if my action had a pro-town or an anti-town motivation. Conversely, if someone is voting for someone but is reluctant to hurt them even at majority vote, then that is also something I would consider suspicious if the target of the wagon turns out to be scum. Also, I'll go as far to say that I don't really care if we start shooting at 5 votes or at 7; so long as a plurality of people seem to be in favor of lynching someone, then I think you're free to use your judgement.

Once someone starts spazzing out and shooting people on their own without support from the rest of the town, though, then we need to put them down like a mad dog as quick as we possibly can. That's just the nature of the game mechanics; we can't afford to have anyone going rogue on us, or the whole system will break down into a bloody melee, probably quickly followed by a scum win.

[Mr. Flay]

It has come to my attention that there is a small error/ambiguity in the Town Role PM. Where it says something like:

Duke Astaroth

Note that in this particular game, Healing someone will subtract a HP from you until the next time you gain Rage!

it should say:

Note that in this particular game, Healing someone will subtract a HP from you which will be replenished 1:1 when you next gain Rage in the standard way.

(this also incorporates the earlier question about whether ALL Heal damage is replaced at once)

[Voidedmafia]

Dislike Rampage now, especially his "lone cowboy" like attitude.

Yos, I get where you're coming from with the "kill the lone star" mentality, but why didn't you wait until after someone else voted Pere? You're acting like Rampage, in a sense.

Pere: What rules do I need to say Kinetic and Xalxe and a couple others have been saying them often enough that you don't need me to be another broken record, and I'm not going to say them just because you apparantly like hearing them.

While on the topic of rules, I don't like LLD's 1v1 accountability thingy. Unless there are honest grievances against anyone on said wagon, those on the wagon should not expect to be hurt, and such actions should be considered as if coming from scum, if not an outright scumclaim.

[Yosarian2]

Dislike Rampage now, especially his "lone cowboy" like attitude.

Yos, I get where you're coming from with the "kill the lone star" mentality, but why didn't you wait until after someone else voted Pere?

I'm not sure what you mean; once I voted for him, I believe he was at 5 votes.

[Voidedmafia]

He's been at 4 for awhile, now. Else PV wouldn't have raised such a stink this afternoon.