Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[pirate mollie]

I can't seem to understand

your

logic.

FIFY

Vote Count

Pirate Mollie (L-4): ProHawk
Mantis (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Adam-12 (L-4): Shrimp85, Guile

Not Voting: Code, Levi, Mantis, Mala, Adam-12

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[pirate mollie]

this is your first decent question so far and it also contradicts question #2

My first decent question? Me asking why you have a sudden town read on someone? It's pretty obvious someone was going to ask.
And how does it contradict my second question?

Mollie, seriously, this is another OMGUS vote... Do you always just vote people because they vote or suspect you?

This is about your votes against people that vote you.

May I ask why?

This is about why you have a town read...

I can't seem to understand your logic.

but I will address your points.

you asked me if I vote people just because they vote or fos me when hawk boy had his vote at the time. so obviously I am not running around voting people who vote me. that is how you contradicted yourself.

pretty sure hawk boy is town and thinking mantis is scum. it isn't based on gut like you tried to insinuate it was more that his "ack ack are watcher or tracker immune?" question that puts him in my town pile. reason being is that he is obviously reaction testing and town tend to do use this style of baiting more often than scum.

[pirate mollie]

By the way, I just realized this while skimming through ISO's...
Pirate mollie, did you seriously just claim to be a PR? post 66.

wtf is this shit I don't even. how in the fuck did you get that I soft claimed a pr role out of that post? are you telling me that your role description has the word "blacksmith" in it?

NEVER, I mean, NEVER do that...
And WTF Prohawk, I can't believe you just posted that. Post 68
You are seriously asking her to give her PR role out?

You two are messed up...
Well, you know what... I guess we'll see wether or not Pirate Mollie is indeed a town.
If tonight she does not get lynched, then bet your ass she's mafia.

let me get this straight...you think I soft-claimed a pr and you are pushing for my lynch? LOL

And Prohawk, you have been playing since July, you have the most experience in this game technically.
Why would you post something like that?!

join date is not an indication of experience level. a lot of people use alts on this site and also people can have a ton of experience on other sites too. for instance I am up to about 90 games and pretty sure mantis is up there too.

[pirate mollie]

Bah... just realized that if Shrimp honestly thinks post 68 is role-fishing a PR, he prob is obv-town. But good heavens man, you should really read things a bit more closely.

UNVOTE: Shrimp
VOTE: Mollie

Sorry Mollie, yer still not off the hook.

[pirate mollie]

also hawk boy I think you are letting shrimp guy off too easy but will you plz vote mantis with me her number one scum tell besides leaving me to die is thread avoidance and she was on this morning.

[pirate mollie]

6 poast combo!!!!!

[Majiffy]

Everyone let me know if you'd prefer the vote count to be updated with the occurrences on each page (votes added, unvotes striked out) or if you just want whatever the current vote count was as of the first post on each page.

In bold, please, so I can see it when I skim through.

[ProHawk]

Ok, I'll bite. I can't have you hogging the thread all to yourself with your combo and all...

Mantis, lets see some more from you. Hop down from that fence and place your vote with your number one scum read please. Its time.

If you don't I might have to follow scum, and that could lead to devastating results for our elite group.

Would love the current vote count as of the first post on page w/o updates until the next page plz.

[ProHawk]

Re: Letting Shrimp Off

He thought my post was about town PR's. Unless he is a very astute and tricky scummer, he is obv-town. Anyone who got the scum role would know EXACTLY what post 68 was about. With his current playstyle, I would be very, very surprised to see him flip scum.

[pirate mollie]

Re: Letting Shrimp Off

He thought my post was about town PR's. Unless he is a very astute and tricky scummer, he is obv-town. Anyone who got the scum role

or read the OP

would know EXACTLY what post 68 was about. With his current playstyle, I would be very, very surprised to see him flip scum.

FIFY

I will leave shrimp guy alone then. I have malacat as town.

[pirate mollie]

@ majiffy

no preference

[ProHawk]

Worried about #158 - The Original being self incriminating without the FIFY #159?

[pirate mollie]

haha no.

[Shrimp85]

Wow, hilarious. post 150

How is this not OMGUS?post 119
He didn't vote you, but because he said "and i am wondering about molly myself." You voted him.

it isn't based on gut like you tried to insinuate

Want me to quote where you said it was gut feeling?

haha, not scum but good try so wtf do you make of the blacksmith bizness that malacat and levianthan were banging on about

I am town it is not in my role pm nor does the term blacksmith indicate the flavour what are they talking about do you know?

Maybe I don't understand what you were trying to say, but this seems like a PR claim.

join date is not an indication of experience level. a lot of people use alts on this site and also people can have a ton of experience on other sites too.

Okay, this is true. But I did check ProHawk's profile, and saw he finished about 5 games, and is in a couple.
So he has more experience in these games then most. ( unless everyone is an alt)
By the way, are alt's even allowed?

He thought my post was about town PR's

Wow, I am an idiot... I see it now xD

@MOD, I'd rather have vote updates

without

the vote-history stuff.

[Adam-12]

@Mod: Like updating the votecount at the top of the page, however would like a timestamp for your updates. Also the current VC is incorrect, I am at L-3.

[Adam-12]

OK upon skimming the thread here, its obvious that certain people think asking questions is "baaaaad" and that somehow I MUST have scum intent because I do so. I will lay that to rest right now. I do not ask questions without a reason and the number one reason I do so is to gain information. Information is the thing we have the least of.

Those that are incorrectly attributing scum intent to my questions can just as easily see the other side of the coin and see town intent if they wished.

Of course SOME questions ARE scummy and should be lynched upon (rolefishing for instance or questions that contain a scum slip). Pointless questions can also be seen as posturing which would be scummy.

Simply, asking questions is a major way that I scum hunt. The other is watching everything that everyone does.

I will be digesting the thread anew now that everyone is present and giving my reads.

[Malakittens]

I feel bad for all of you after you read this wall. I wall when I'm in the mood to wall and it's not a bad thing for me, trust me.

Even though my vote on Levi was serious and it was designed it get us out of RVS before it even started. I was using it to get reactions from all players.

Levi

- Originally I was as if he might have been scum just due to his reaction.
His Post 31 At first I thought he was going for the approach of 'I don't have a clue what you are talking about'.
He has a completed game which is here. He could talk anytime during that game, although he did not say anything during that game.
I have already stated that I disliked his post #49 because claiming early is not beneficial to the town especially when it's a role game as this one. Claiming early gives scum a better shot at hitting a PR during night phrases.
His post here makes me think that he's probably town only because he started giving out his reads without being asked. I see less of mafia doing that during Day 1 because they are afraid to slip up, especially new mafia players. This post is another I had an issue with which was brought up. These posts are common new-town mistakes.
*This post here is why I'm labeling him as town. Mainly because quicklynches benefit scum rather than town and he's clearly not for it.

Mollie:

I would like you to answer why you have Prohawk as town. (Prohawk do not interfere.)

I don't see how ProHawk asking that is town-motivated. Not to mention that you stated that he was trying to "provoke" you.
I'm not really understanding your read on Mantis. To me she's leaning null at this point.

I'm putting you on a watchlist. >_>

Prohawk:

I think your case on Shrimp was a bit graspy.
Basically you are going after Mollie and Shrimp. As Mollie stated trying to "provoke" her and the case on Shrimp is weak.
This play is incredibly different from our most recent Micro Game.

Highest FoS so far.

Shrimp:

My vote turns serious mode because I find the reason to vote Leviathon very lacking.
It's a strategy of scum, but it's not a clear scum tell by a long shot.
That's why I assumed it was sarcasm, and the way that Pirate Mollie just joined your wagon,
makes me suspect her. Not only that, pirate mollie also just switched votes to me for no apparent reason.

Yes, but from my tone and the tones of people after you should have realized that I was clearly trying to get us out of RVS, but instead you tried putting us back into RVS.
Sometimes it is a strategy of scum, but I agree that it's not a clear scum tell, but you are able to figure out scum by their reactions to these types of posts.
I do though like the fact you are looking at Mollie and questioning for that vote.

And for the second question, Adam-12 should be able to answer this question if he actually DID read my history.
In my first game the discussion about quicktopic came up. Check it for yourself if you like.

If it's ongoing I really can't talk about it and I'm not planning on perusing it as of yet. The answer during my first game would have been fine, but I'm not really liking the tone here.

Playing the new card here can be considered a scum tell. I actually did it a lot during my first scum game (Guille totally knows). I was at the time new to this site, but I had another site experience, but the two sites are just totally different.

I did though take asking the mod about QT as a possible scum-asking mod a question. Considering the question you asked and then I furthered asking was in Post #2. Then I read it again and didn't really see it that way anymore.

Your post #146 is something that I already covered. I already asked them to stop the conversation regarding role PM's.
I still think the whole thing against Mollie is a bit WIFOM-y in terms of her being killed during the night. I am seeing the end as lining up a lynch already on Mollie if she doesn't get killed during Night 1.

*I'm going to give you a FoS, but you are showing signs of hunting. So it's a very low FoS, but on the verge of being put on a watch list.

Adam:

Others have asked this, but I'm going to ask it in a different way. How does asking about Mafia experience and asking questions of games did you play with Player "X" help this game? What information so far have you gotten from them?

What makes me wonder is this:

Or let me put it another way, you don't think scum would not confirm because they are chatting in the Q/T & would be otherwise occupied? Isn't it a reasonable motivation for ultimately falling asleep instead of confirming?

It seems as if you took my stance very seriously, but with held a vote. I am not sure why exactly you withheld it.

Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.

The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).

When did you see that it was a good reason to vote?

You never really explain why those explanations prove each or even point that direction.

Giving an FoS. Possibly willing to vote depending on what you come up regarding lists. So pending evaluation.

Vote: Prohawk

Reads:

FoS:

Prohawk
Adam
Shrimp

Watchlist:

Mollie

Town:

Levi

Null:

Guille
Codex
Mantis

My null list consists of that because I would like to see more posts from each player. Codex has only posted once besides the confirmation post.

[pirate mollie]

#146I already asked them to stop the conversation regarding role PM's.

where did you do this?

thinking you are pretty disengaged despite my liking you intro into the game.

[ProHawk]

So Mala Am I Scum?

[Malakittens]

I'm going to do the following action in the nicest way possible.

-paws Mollie-

I think he mixed up terms, let's drop it and not discuss PM's. YOU ARE HELPING THE SCUM OUT. >.>

[Malakittens]

ProHawk:

Your ISO reads the following:

Levi is probable town.
Mala got us out of RVS stage. I was going to lean that you are probably calling me town. >.>
Attacks Mollie.
Pokes at Adam.
Tells Adam to stop taking the grilling from Mantis as Mantis is "fencesitting"
Attacks Shrimp.
Stops attacking Shrimp and goes back to Mollie.
Calls Shrimp obvstown.

So, is your play style completely different from Micro game where we were both town? Yes.
Am I completely sold that you are scum? No, but I'm planning on digging for your thoughts.

Something is off.

[ProHawk]

Answer: Meta analysis is in my experience not a good indication of alignment.

Who wants to maintain the same play-style throughout all of their games? No-one. And this is regardless of alignment.

We all learn things as we play and decide to improve on what doesn't work, while implementing things that do.

Evidence: Compare our Micro Game to my Recently completed town game here. You will see they are drastically different, just as my play here differs.

If you care to do an accurate and thorough meta analysis, you need to read my first scum game here.

When you can explain how my different meta equates to scum, I will say you might have a case. Until then your case on me is more washy than the one I had on Shrimp who scum-slipped as town.

[Malakittens]

#146I already asked them to stop the conversation regarding role PM's.

where did you do this?

thinking you are pretty disengaged despite my liking you intro into the game.

Why am I disengaged?

[Adam-12]

Ok, done.

Mala -- I like his original case on Levi and find it more likely from town than scum. His shift from Levi and subsequent vote on Shrimp was also quite good. His queries of Levi sound genuine town trying to verify alignment. I like his interjection into Mantis-Mollie early on. I think his unvote of Shrimp was warranted with the caveat. I expect he will have more content upon his return and see him as town.

Levi -- There is no doubt whatsoever that Levi is a very new player that would be incapable of understanding what stalling of confirmation is. There has been accusation in this thread that he does not have a town role pm (Blacksmith Gate) and that as a new player did not know how to properly claim town (as scum). I think this is possible. Even though my read on Levi is as very new town, I think this accusation could have merit and we need to keep it mind going forward. As it is I think he is town.

Mollie -- I did not like her early "asking of permission" to vote Levi which gave me an early possible scum read. I think its good to note her early calling out of Mantis. Even though her vote was not explained for Shrimp initially, she did so later on in the thread and sounded genuine about it. She also explained her initial vote for Levi and made me feel better about it as well. I think she might of misunderstood about Blacksmith Gate in her calling out of Mala which is evidenced by her later calling Mala town. Being consistent with her initial calling out of Mantis, she votes him on meta, at the very least this should bring Mantis to provide more definitive content which should be helpful. I like her appraisal of Shrimp, finding it quite accurate. I like and share her Hawk town read and find her explanation of it genuine. I especially like the interaction of Mollie-Hawk and find it quite genuine. Mollie has become a strong townread for me.

Shrimp -- I didn't like Shrimp's fencesat vote of Mollie (not because I had a town read on her at that time but because of simply what it was). I think he completely misread the Levi case which caused alot of confusion in this thread because of his reactions regarding it. At this point, I actually believe his Mod query on the QT as genuine based on his overall posts. I find his "wall of posts" style difficult to deal with and riddled with so many innacuracies that would require a larger wall to properly address. It took me quite awhile to finally understand what he was trying to say about the Blacksmith issue and I think that is a problem of imprecise/difficult wording; the same thing with his stance on the Levi issue and vote for Mollie. His OMGUS case on Mollie is completely inaccurate. His PR Gate is completely inaccurate. He has not understood Mollie's stance on Hawk. Ultimately his case on myself boils down to asking questions (which he has failed to understand the import of) and OMGUS. However, I must agree with Hawk regarding his town alignment. Based on what I have gleaned from his posts (it was very difficult), I must hold that he is town. I think it will help us to be able to look elsewhere for scum.

Hawk -- I like his perception regarding Levi being too new to prolong the confirmation (I think Shrimp was trying to say the same thing but it was too difficult for me to understand him). I like his Mala +town points for ending RVS. I also liked his initial read on Mollie with the way she voted for Levi and completely shared that view. I think his strong push on Mollie was very pro-town. I absolutely cannot fault him for his semantic-based argument, re: Shrimp. His quick reversal out of it and town read of Shrimp is very good. Again the Mollie-Hawk interactions are quite good. Hawk's content is light but I am not too worried about it, when he does post, it is quite good and I have him as town.

Mantis -- He asks Mollie for her summary of the game but adequately explains that it is also to get a read on her; based on their meta-playing history, I think I buy that. I think he has clearly misunderstood how I scum hunt; asking questions are not bad unless you can actually show that they have scum intent and this includes negating town intent. He defends Shrimp which I think shows insight because its not easy to do. I don't like how he didn't read Mala's link, re: confirmation stalling, but yet dismisses Mala's case. His post count is very light and I am not able to get a read on him. I think this is partly because he entered the game late and was not able to participate in the early game with the rest of us. I agree with Hawk that we need to see more content from Mantis.

Code -- One post. Not liking this. Obviously this can't continue.

Guille -- One post. He has obviously misunderstood my method of scum hunting; blanket labeling questions as "scum loaded" is too easy. Has a scum read on Mollie?? I think its clear he has simply skimmed this thread. We definitely need to see more content from him than this.

I actually was quite confused about this game when I first started this post. But now I am able to see that we have established a good block of reads based on solid information. I think scum reside in the following:

Code, Guille, Mantis

Towards this end:

Vote Guille

[ProHawk]

Aside from the fact that you think everyone here is a male (I hope the ladies don't hold a grudge for it). Wow, talk about a lot of work (writing and thought) Adam! If you are scum, you

really

want to win this game... +Townie points for you elitist.

I can ride this wagon for a while.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Guille

Mollie, still not off the hook. We can help Adam see eye to eye on you later if needed.