Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Posts 158 through 161 are tantamount to a scum claim for Matt.

Also, I see no reason to give Matt any BoP Tierce. You've shown an argument about his self proclaimed town meta, and he isn't sticking to it.

Further, you can't get fake rage past the Queen of Rage. That whole comment about your mother was loaded with tons of goodies that scum love to use. Baiting into a spiraling conversation, combined with some absurd form of AtE seeking to gain you some form of sympathy in the manner of "oh he was just in a bad mood, he was being bad town".

All of it stinks.
------------------------------

On a separate but related note, are we just going to let the voting plan go through? Because while I don't want to drag this out I'm annoyed/worried people like Tierce and Yos won't address my concerns about a pseudo voting system.

[Tierce]

Because while I don't want to drag this out I'm annoyed/worried people like Tierce and Yos won't address my concerns about a pseudo voting system.

Sorry, wanted to address this the other day and forgot. I think your plan is a bad idea, because that will result on several players with reduced health. We have limited Healing power in this game, and that would leave people far too open to attack. I understand the interest for accountability, but that just means that we have to try and study wagons a different way.

That said, I agree with the "settle on a plan

and stick with it

" idea. The most damage I've seen in previous games was from endless theory discussion that ended with both parts trying to play their way.


Did scum gain Rage/other powers from being involved in a Town death in previous games? I'm wondering if we should only let general Townreads inflict Hurts--like scumreads should be the ones Healing surprise Rage attacks.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because while I don't want to drag this out I'm annoyed/worried people like Tierce and Yos won't address my concerns about a pseudo voting system.

Sorry, wanted to address this the other day and forgot. I think your plan is a bad idea, because that will result on several players with reduced health. We have limited Healing power in this game, and that would leave people far too open to attack. I understand the interest for accountability, but that just means that we have to try and study wagons a different way.

That said, I agree with the "settle on a plan

and stick with it

" idea. The most damage I've seen in previous games was from endless theory discussion that ended with both parts trying to play their way.


Did scum gain Rage/other powers from being involved in a Town death in previous games? I'm wondering if we should only let general Townreads inflict Hurts--like scumreads should be the ones Healing surprise Rage attacks.

How would we determine whose definition of "town" is used for this?

[Tierce]

What "town" words are you referring to?

...that said, it would probably be ridiculously hard to implement. It's hard enough to herd cats (heh) into getting communal scumreads, communal Townreads are yet another layer of difficulty and slowing the game down.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What "town" words are you referring to?

...that said, it would probably be ridiculously hard to implement. It's hard enough to herd cats (heh) into getting communal scumreads, communal Townreads are yet another layer of difficulty and slowing the game down.

When you talk about "general townreads" how do you expect to get a consensus of a group, is what I meant.

[kdowns]

FoS: MattP and ZD

At the moment because holy hell... Do their responses come off as very scummy... Plus the immediate OMGUS.

[Kinetic]

I know Yos expressed some concern about voting taking too long as well. How about a compromise, no hurting someone unless they have at least, say 5 votes. That number may need to be reduced as we get less people in the game, but for now it seems like a good number to keep the game speed up, but also have at least a modicum of support before any hurting begins. Anyone who hurts outside of that we will agree to heal them.

Hell, we could have 2-3 people set aside JUST to heal people who are hurt out of turn, or to react in emergencies to heal someone if scum decide to target someone.

[Tierce]

FoS: MattP and ZD

At the moment because holy hell... Do their responses come off as very scummy... Plus the immediate OMGUS.

Why just a FoS?


LLD: Yeah, the

general

Townreads thing was the main problem with that. We can probably call two or three people obvTown, but there will neer be consensus enough for a Hurting team.

[Zdenek]

What is BoPing?

I'm pretty indifferent to Tierce's case on Matt. Yeah, it's clear that Matt's play in this game is less than optimal compared to what he regards as good play. However, he could have in some sense lived up to his ideal by shutting up, which would have made him immune to this attack, and if anyone called him on it, he could have pointed to this as an excuse. I guess I just don't see suboptimal play as scummy play.

LLD's point about Matt's AtE is fair.

I still think that we may want to force scummy people to use their rage to injure people who we've chosen to kill off, since this will hopefully reduce the amount of rage that scum have available to use for themselves.

On the other hand, Kinetic is being really obviously scum. There's clearly stuff that's happened in the thread that's worth talking about, but he's content to continue to talk about voting/hurting and healing.

[Tierce]

Burden of Proficiency - Matt is far more capable and proactive as Town than this. I'm not saying he should be

finding

scum, but he definitely should be making more of an effort.

[quadz08]

I'm inclined to beleive that Matt is distracted by the Thanksgiving holiday and shit with his family at the moment. Should his current level of play continue after this weekend, I'll re-evaluate my read on him.

Zdenek, you're wrong about Kinetic.

[Zdenek]

Hey Quadz,

Please tell me how you think that town claiming uses of rage is going to stop scum from using it secretly.

[Zdenek]

and in what way am I wrong about Kinetic. It seems pretty clear to me that he's just ignored MattP, Tierce and LLD.

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay, can the hit point we gain at rage accumulation take us over our original health?

Yes, subject to the +1 rule.

Courtesy prods have gone out; I will post another Damage Count closer to the end of the weekend, since activity is so low right now.

[quadz08]

Hey Quadz,

Please tell me how you think that town claiming uses of rage is going to stop scum from using it secretly.

It's not, except to let them know that it's easier to catch them when they do.

and in what way am I wrong about Kinetic. It seems pretty clear to me that he's just ignored MattP, Tierce and LLD.

I read him as town. We agree on almost everything without sheeping one another, his setup spec posts come from a town frame of mind. I admit he hasn't necessarily made as much commentary on other players as one probably should in a typical game, but this isn't a typical game. Especially with the history of scum winning every WiH game previously due in large part to town being disorganized with their hurts/heals, it's

extremely important

that we get our shit together in that regard.

[Kinetic]

On the other hand, Kinetic is being really obviously scum. There's clearly stuff that's happened in the thread that's worth talking about, but he's content to continue to talk about voting/hurting and healing.

Except, I've been using my iPad to read the thread/post, and I can barely do anything in the thread because I'm nearly 100 miles away from my computer. But I'm still trying to be here and participating. Oh, and I also had only one short line post since any of that happened. O wait, there are obvious, clear explanations as to why Kinetic has only had a little bit of participation in the last couple days, like a major holiday? And he even posted he'd have Limited Access, even though most didn't? I better disregard all that and stick to calling him scum, because its the only way to maybe get him off my back.

Zd, you are so obviously scum its actually getting laughable.

As for Tierce/Matt, I'm still waiting to get home to dig deeper into that, but for everyone who isn't scum, I'm trying to figure out if Tierce actually caught MattP scum, or if Tierce's timing on his attack was just a little too convenient and he is using that to chainsaw the obviously strong case against you.

Either way, calling someone out for not commenting on an issue during Thanksgiving (and the day after), when more than half the thread is currently in lurk mode is pretty

fucking retarded

ignorant at best, and obviously trying make it seem like I'm the scum somehow.

[Zdenek]

Hey Quadz,

Please tell me how you think that town claiming uses of rage is going to stop scum from using it secretly.

It's not, except to let them know that it's easier to catch them when they do.

In endgame, it will benefit scum to kill of people with the most accumulated rage, for them to not know who has spent the most rage benefits town because they will be able to kill off scum faster.

This is true. However, it is also of significantly lesser consequence than

allowing scum to be able to secretly kill someone

, especially if we're letting town players get away with doing the same thing.

All I can say is that I seriously doubt that this plan has any chance of working.

and in what way am I wrong about Kinetic. It seems pretty clear to me that he's just ignored MattP, Tierce and LLD.

I read him as town. We agree on almost everything without sheeping one another, his setup spec posts come from a town frame of mind. I admit he hasn't necessarily made as much commentary on other players as one probably should in a typical game, but this isn't a typical game. Especially with the history of scum winning every WiH game previously due in large part to town being disorganized with their hurts/heals, it's

extremely important

that we get our shit together in that regard.

Agreeing with someone about mechanics issues is not a reason to think they are town. I think his setup spec is posturing as town, and he's given no reason for us to actually think that it's anything more than that.

Except, I've been using my iPad to read the thread/post, and I can barely do anything in the thread because I'm nearly 100 miles away from my computer. But I'm still trying to be here and participating. Oh, and I also had only one short line post since any of that happened. O wait, there are obvious, clear explanations as to why Kinetic has only had a little bit of participation in the last couple days, like a major holiday? And he even posted he'd have Limited Access, even though most didn't? I better disregard all that and stick to calling him scum, because its the only way to maybe get him off my back.

You're suggesting that I am scum for not cutting you slack because your posting from an iPad. How in God's name am I supposed to know that? That is such a bullshit and garbage attack. Eat rope.

if Tierce's timing on his attack was just a little too convenient and he is using that to chainsaw the obviously strong case against you.

What is this noise? Tierce is attacking Matt, who's calling me town, to chainsaw the case against me. What chainsaw is this?

Either way, calling someone out for not commenting on an issue during Thanksgiving (and the day after), when more than half the thread is currently in lurk mode is pretty fucking retarded ignorant at best, and obviously trying make it seem like I'm the scum somehow.

Right, because Thanksgiving makes people blind to events in the game and since everyone else is lurking, it's fine for you to float by.

[Kinetic]

Except, I've been using my iPad to read the thread/post, and I can barely do anything in the thread because I'm nearly 100 miles away from my computer. But I'm still trying to be here and participating. Oh, and I also had only one short line post since any of that happened. O wait, there are obvious, clear explanations as to why Kinetic has only had a little bit of participation in the last couple days, like a major holiday? And he even posted he'd have Limited Access, even though most didn't? I better disregard all that and stick to calling him scum, because its the only way to maybe get him off my back.

You're suggesting that I am scum for not cutting you slack because your posting from an iPad. How in God's name am I supposed to know that? That is such a bullshit and garbage attack. Eat rope.

I love how you picked the one thing there that you think you have an attack against and make the entire post about that. Nope, its to point out how hypocritical you're being. I'm sorry you have so much time to spend on this thread the past couple days, but most of us don't. The fact that I'm still here and contributing but, oh look, here is one thing he hasn't said anything about, I can nail him, is pretty obviously flimsy evidence. You're grasping at straws because you know I have you dead to rights.

if Tierce's timing on his attack was just a little too convenient and he is using that to chainsaw the obviously strong case against you.

What is this noise? Tierce is attacking Matt, who's calling me town, to chainsaw the case against me. What chainsaw is this?

Perhaps my meta is a bit dated, but I'm referring to a variant of the "Tarhalindur Chainsaw Defense". See here. The normal version would be if someone attacked me directly. That person would be extremely scummy. The version that Tierce

might

be using is a variant where you distract the town/wagon that was beginning to form on a scum buddy by instead attacking someone else in the town in an attempt to distract.

Either way, calling someone out for not commenting on an issue during Thanksgiving (and the day after), when more than half the thread is currently in lurk mode is pretty fucking retarded ignorant at best, and obviously trying make it seem like I'm the scum somehow.

Right, because Thanksgiving makes people blind to events in the game and since everyone else is lurking, it's fine for you to float by.

Is that what I said? No, what I said was that I haven't been able to comment as much as I would like to because of MAJOR FUCKING HOLIDAY. Yet, I'm still trying to contribute. The fact that I literally cannot comment on every. single. thing. in the thread is ludicrous. And it also predisposes the fact that maybe I didn't want to comment yet. I've told you I'm not sure, and why I'm not sure, maybe, idk, maybe I wanted to have more to say before I commented? O wait, no, that can't be. That is so obviously a town reason, that it can't possibly be what Kinetic is doing.

Isn't that sort of the same thing you said here:

Hey Zdenek, read on Tierce, go

I'm giving this read time to develop because of events in on going games that I can't discuss. Her immediate accusation that I'm tunneling is annoying, but I can understand why she would say it.

You've already decided that the best way to defend yourself is by just calling everything I do as scummy. That bullshit response just proves even further how much you need to die.

[Tierce]

if Tierce's timing on his attack was just a little too convenient and he is using that to chainsaw the obviously strong case against you.

What is this noise? Tierce is attacking Matt, who's calling me town, to chainsaw the case against me. What chainsaw is this?

Perhaps my meta is a bit dated, but I'm referring to a variant of the "Tarhalindur Chainsaw Defense". See here. The normal version would be if someone attacked me directly. That person would be extremely scummy. The version that Tierce

might

be using is a variant where you distract the town/wagon that was beginning to form on a scum buddy by instead attacking someone else in the town in an attempt to distract.

ITT we lean that voting a scumread when someone else has two votes on them (omg! And I haven't even given a read on him, too~)

might

be "an attempt to distract". Uhm... what now? If I was attempting to distract from

anything

, the attempt to defuse MattP's ad hominem attitude would be spectacularly out of place. I could have fanned that one spectacularly, and if there's something people who have played with me know, it's that I can get in catfights with my scumreads like nobody's business.

I understand your worry, but look at the facts. I was clearly voicing a scumread, and yes, I'd much rather lynch MattP than Zdenek, but that's because I have a scumread on MattP. The way events developed doesn't match with any "attempt to distract" from me re: Zdenek, because I was very clearly not brewing a distraction when I had motive and opportunity to do so.

[Tierce]

PS: vote MattP. Let Zdenek stew a while, he gets extremely OMGUSy while under pressure and is actually harder to read then.

At least for me.

[Kinetic]

if Tierce's timing on his attack was just a little too convenient and he is using that to chainsaw the obviously strong case against you.

What is this noise? Tierce is attacking Matt, who's calling me town, to chainsaw the case against me. What chainsaw is this?

Perhaps my meta is a bit dated, but I'm referring to a variant of the "Tarhalindur Chainsaw Defense". See here. The normal version would be if someone attacked me directly. That person would be extremely scummy. The version that Tierce

might

be using is a variant where you distract the town/wagon that was beginning to form on a scum buddy by instead attacking someone else in the town in an attempt to distract.

ITT we lean that voting a scumread when someone else has two votes on them (omg! And I haven't even given a read on him, too~)

might

be "an attempt to distract". Uhm... what now? If I was attempting to distract from

anything

, the attempt to defuse MattP's ad hominem attitude would be spectacularly out of place. I could have fanned that one spectacularly, and if there's something people who have played with me know, it's that I can get in catfights with my scumreads like nobody's business.

I understand your worry, but look at the facts. I was clearly voicing a scumread, and yes, I'd much rather lynch MattP than Zdenek, but that's because I have a scumread on MattP. The way events developed doesn't match with any "attempt to distract" from me re: Zdenek, because I was very clearly not brewing a distraction when I had motive and opportunity to do so.

Hence why I said I'm not sure. Its something that goes through my mind, but it's not something I'm sticking to yet because I want to see more develop. It doesn't help though when you then make this post...

PS: vote MattP. Let Zdenek stew a while, he gets extremely OMGUSy while under pressure and is actually harder to read then.

At least for me.

And make think again about whether I hit a chord...

[Tierce]

You're looking at behaviors over motivations. Think deeper.

If Zdenek usually irritates me and I have issues reading him, won't I be trying to read him in my own time, and trying for a situation in which my read won't be biased? A player lashing back at his attackers just because he's frustrated is hard to read, as that frustration can be Town or scum. I deal better in seeing Zdenek produce his own work and getting a read from that. Forcing him into a reactive position is hell on my scumhunting and devolves into walls upon walls upon walls. He's fairly ignorable once I have a read, but until then,

I have to read his posts

. He does the same thing I've been trying to cut from my play: argue pages on end with scumreads. It's pointless, drags the game and kills Town motivation.

I'd rather pick my bones with Zdenek inwardly and get a clean read, instead of lynching him for things that are annoying yet don't make him scum. So I don't want you or anyone else to engage in behavior that will inevitably lead to the latter.

[Kinetic]

You're looking at behaviors over motivations. Think deeper.

If Zdenek usually irritates me and I have issues reading him, won't I be trying to read him in my own time, and trying for a situation in which my read won't be biased? A player lashing back at his attackers just because he's frustrated is hard to read, as that frustration can be Town or scum. I deal better in seeing Zdenek produce his own work and getting a read from that. Forcing him into a reactive position is hell on my scumhunting and devolves into walls upon walls upon walls. He's fairly ignorable once I have a read, but until then,

I have to read his posts

. He does the same thing I've been trying to cut from my play: argue pages on end with scumreads. It's pointless, drags the game and kills Town motivation.

I'd rather pick my bones with Zdenek inwardly and get a clean read, instead of lynching him for things that are annoying yet don't make him scum. So I don't want you or anyone else to engage in behavior that will inevitably lead to the latter.

Except, I feel pretty strongly on my read of him.

At the same time I'm not going to force you to see my vision, I'm sure it'll be apparent on your own. I'll leave off him for now so you can get better reads, but I'm not changing my vote. As soon as we have some consensus I want to start hurting him.

[Kinetic]

You're looking at behaviors over motivations. Think deeper.

If Zdenek usually irritates me and I have issues reading him, won't I be trying to read him in my own time, and trying for a situation in which my read won't be biased? A player lashing back at his attackers just because he's frustrated is hard to read, as that frustration can be Town or scum. I deal better in seeing Zdenek produce his own work and getting a read from that. Forcing him into a reactive position is hell on my scumhunting and devolves into walls upon walls upon walls. He's fairly ignorable once I have a read, but until then,

I have to read his posts

. He does the same thing I've been trying to cut from my play: argue pages on end with scumreads. It's pointless, drags the game and kills Town motivation.

I'd rather pick my bones with Zdenek inwardly and get a clean read, instead of lynching him for things that are annoying yet don't make him scum. So I don't want you or anyone else to engage in behavior that will inevitably lead to the latter.

Except, I feel pretty strongly on my read of him.

At the same time I'm not going to force you to see my vision, I'm sure it'll be apparent on your own. I'll leave off him for now so you can get better reads, but I'm not changing my vote. As soon as we have some consensus I want to start hurting him.

[Zdenek]

I love how you picked the one thing there that you think you have an attack against and make the entire post about that. Nope, its to point out how hypocritical you're being.

I'm pretty sure I've not been hypocritical and certainly not in way that you telling me your posting from an iPad is some how going to demonstrate, so this is just rhetorical nonsense.

Perhaps my meta is a bit dated, but I'm referring to a variant of the "Tarhalindur Chainsaw Defense". See here. The normal version would be if someone attacked me directly. That person would be extremely scummy. The version that Tierce might be using is a variant where you distract the town/wagon that was beginning to form on a scum buddy by instead attacking someone else in the town in an attempt to distract.

That is lulzy. Trying to tie people together before flips works rarely and on day one is just foolish. The stronger version of this tell is even questionable, so you are really grasping at straws with this, especially since you don't seem to have an independent read on either Tierce or Matt yet.

Is that what I said? No, what I said was that I haven't been able to comment as much as I would like to because of MAJOR FUCKING HOLIDAY. Yet, I'm still trying to contribute. The fact that I literally cannot comment on every. single. thing. in the thread is ludicrous. And it also predisposes the fact that maybe I didn't want to comment yet. I've told you I'm not sure, and why I'm not sure, maybe, idk, maybe I wanted to have more to say before I commented? O wait, no, that can't be. That is so obviously a town reason, that it can't possibly be what Kinetic is doing.

The issue is what you are choosing to comment on, you picked something soft and easy. When I pointed out that is what you did, your reaction was to go over the top - explaining that you're on an iPad, 100 miles away from a computer, but still trying to post, and to pull out that ridiculous attack on Tierce for possibly chainsaw defending me, by distracting town's attention on to Matt.

You've already decided that the best way to defend yourself is by just calling everything I do as scummy.

I can't help that you're scum and everything you do is imbued with your scum nature.

Tierce,

what's your read on Kinetic?