Mini 1397: War is Hell (Game Over)


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:23 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In post 64, Zdenek wrote:In post 23, Kinetic wrote:
No. Absolutely not! This is a terrible idea. If we keep it secret only the scum win because they can better hide their plays.

What do you think will stop them from lying? What scenario do you have in mind?

When making the decision about claiming rage, we should keep in mind the possibility of power roles like the ophans of last game, which may noit accumulate rage at the same rate as others, or stronger roles that accumulate it faster. If there are these roles in the game, they could be outed quickly if we start mass-claiming rage.


If you use rage, you should claim it. Simple. If you don't no need to claim it. This prevents someone taking a bunch of damage and no one claiming it. If someone takes damage and no one claims it, we can be sure its scum hurting someone.

In post 70, quadz08 wrote:
In post 67, Zdenek wrote:In endgame, it will benefit scum to kill of people with the most accumulated rage, for them to not know who has spent the most rage benefits town because they will be able to kill off scum faster.

This is true. However, it is also of significantly lesser consequence than
allowing scum to be able to secretly kill someone
, especially if we're letting town players get away with doing the same thing. I don't remember which past WiH it was (I think it was the completed large theme), but in mid-game, the scum basically went on a killing spree using rage, because there were so many town players who were at middling health, because town had been hurting each other willy-nilly. The same situation will occur here if we allow people to rage willy-nilly.

Rage gets claimed publicly. Period.

P-Edit: So... that thing that was suggested on the very first page that everyone who isn't LLD agrees with?


That was in WiH3, the thing was, the scum DIDNT KILL ANYONE, and yet the town REFUSED to heal the sudden dramatic and random damage. That needs to not happen here.
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:27 pm

Post by quadz08 »

That's slightly more complex this time, due to heals costing the healer health. For the most part, though, I agree with you.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In post 76, quadz08 wrote:That's slightly more complex this time, due to heals costing the healer health. For the most part, though, I agree with you.


Agreed. However, everyone should be willing to heal once per accumulation date, since they will receive that HP back.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:32 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In fact, as a show of good faith HEAL: quads. If we swap some heals around right now, we will all be at our normal life totals, and then during the first accumulation we will all be +1 our totals.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:39 pm

Post by Zdenek »

In post 74, quadz08 wrote:when somebody who we did not target to be lynched

is suddenly shown as missing health

we will know that scum has targeted them

we then follow the plan listed earlier of forcing scummyfolk to heal the person who's been targeted

anyone who cannot do so (because cooldowns) gets immediately lynched to death

Leaving aside the problems with this for now. Did you intend this to be an explanation for why we should announce rage use in the thread? Because I'm not seeing it.

We should assume that rage used for anything other than accelerating a chosen lynch is coming from scum.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:40 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In post 79, Zdenek wrote:
In post 74, quadz08 wrote:when somebody who we did not target to be lynched

is suddenly shown as missing health

we will know that scum has targeted them

we then follow the plan listed earlier of forcing scummyfolk to heal the person who's been targeted

anyone who cannot do so (because cooldowns) gets immediately lynched to death

Leaving aside the problems with this for now. Did you intend this to be an explanation for why we should announce rage use in the thread? Because I'm not seeing it.

We should assume that rage used for anything other than accelerating a chosen lynch is coming from scum.


This sounds overly broad... And for some reason my scumdar is pinging hard.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:41 pm

Post by quadz08 »

I agree, Zdenek. This helps us do so.

That is a good thought from Kinetic up there. HEAL: MattP

p-edit: more townpoints for Kinetic.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:44 pm

Post by Zdenek »

It doesn't make sense to discuss the problems with it for now because if possible, I'd like to actually try it. If you are talking about something other than the implementation of the plan, what are you talking about? Also, you are welcome to explain the benefit that you see in town knowing how rage is being used. Do you think that town should use rage for anything other than accelerating lynches?
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:46 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In post 82, Zdenek wrote:It doesn't make sense to discuss the problems with it for now because if possible, I'd like to actually try it. If you are talking about something other than the implementation of the plan, what are you talking about? Also, you are welcome to explain the benefit that you see in town knowing how rage is being used. Do you think that town should use rage for anything other than accelerating lynches?


I think right now, no matter what plan is eventually chosen, that rage uses MUST be claimed. Unclaimed usage is scummy, and should be reason for the town to HEAL that person. I'm not taking a stance on anything else right now because the game is different enough from WiH3 that I want to think through everything else first.
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:48 pm

Post by Zdenek »

In post 83, Kinetic wrote:
In post 82, Zdenek wrote:It doesn't make sense to discuss the problems with it for now because if possible, I'd like to actually try it. If you are talking about something other than the implementation of the plan, what are you talking about? Also, you are welcome to explain the benefit that you see in town knowing how rage is being used. Do you think that town should use rage for anything other than accelerating lynches?


I think right now, no matter what plan is eventually chosen, that rage uses MUST be claimed. Unclaimed usage is scummy, and should be reason for the town to HEAL that person. I'm not taking a stance on anything else right now because the game is different enough from WiH3 that I want to think through everything else first.

Okay. So this is something that is far from being clear to me. Why do you think this?
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:55 pm

Post by MattP »

In post 73, charter wrote:I would be fine with a massclaim

Why SPECIFICALLY is this so?

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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:52 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

In post 22, quadz08 wrote:Lord, can we call to use a rage point from in-thread?
If you mean can you actually utilize Rage in-thread, no. You can 'call' for whatever you like...

In post 22, quadz08 wrote:Almighty, does this game contain similar roles as the last ones (seraphim / ophanim / erelim / cherubim)? Or did you choose to leave roles private this time around?
Broadly speaking the roles are of the same type, just reflavored. As it says in the FAQ though, the sample roles are not guaranteed to be exhaustive.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:57 pm

Post by MattP »


I am literally the worst. This won't happen again.
I am trying to keep up with your misposting... -Flay

The question to charter still requires answering.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:21 pm

Post by charter »

In post 85, MattP wrote:
In post 73, charter wrote:I would be fine with a massclaim

Why SPECIFICALLY is this so?

HEAL: KKB

I'm always in favor of massclaim.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:30 pm

Post by MattP »

In post 88, charter wrote:
I'm always in favor of massclaim.

Can I have 3 links to you stating you were ok with a massclaim D1?
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:32 pm

Post by charter »

Feel free to look through my completed games.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:35 pm

Post by MattP »

In post 90, charter wrote:Feel free to look through my completed games.

I did, there are no games where you promoted a massclaim completely unsolicited because you "are always pro massclaims"

Back in 2010 you stated that you don't understand why massclaims are necessary

Recently you have been a supporter of massclaims in several games, but all for some reasoning

So, why in this game are you pro massclaim?
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:37 pm

Post by charter »

Because in most games if you suggest massclaim the gaggle of idiots will gang up and lynch you for no reason?
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:42 pm

Post by MattP »

In post 92, charter wrote:Because in most games if you suggest massclaim the gaggle of idiots will gang up and lynch you for no reason?

So what do you generally gain from a massclaim and why is the payoff of it greater than the fact that scum are informed and know who to kill? Why have you never in the past made a case for this theory?
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Post by MattP »

You realize the disjunct here is that the players proposing a massclaim are doing it for some covert reasoning regarding mechanics while you are doing it because you like massclaims, so I'm curious as to why ty
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:25 pm

Post by kdowns »

... Why is this healing going on... It's just going to put us back to square one?
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:49 pm

Post by kanyeknowsbest »

i like this heal plan.

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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:00 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In post 95, kdowns wrote:... Why is this healing going on... It's just going to put us back to square one?


Until the first accumulation.

Thats the point, Healing SEEMS zero-sum, but that's not true. Your first heal is actually sort of a loan. You get it back, and you don't take the heal back. Its subsequent heals that don't recover. Thus, you have one free heal per accumulation, and we should use it in a pro-town way. Heal someone you feel is pro-town.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:07 pm

Post by Tierce »

HEAL: Lady Lambdadelta

More later when I'm not half asleep.

Remember that we don't know whether accumulation hits all at the same time (and I don't think we should claim it--scum probably get to know it due to their own accumulation periods, but claiming ours may our PRs due to different recovery times).
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:10 pm

Post by Kinetic »

In post 98, Tierce wrote:HEAL: Lady Lambdadelta

More later when I'm not half asleep.

Remember that we don't know whether accumulation hits all at the same time (and I don't think we should claim it--scum probably get to know it due to their own accumulation periods, but claiming ours may our PRs due to different recovery times).


Perhaps, although it makes more sense that everyone gets accumulation at the same time, while scum may get more accumulation or different abilities.
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