Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Acosmist]

He back peddled on his claim to pretend he had the ability to kill a Day Vig/Day SK

[Acosmist]

My fourth post is the post I quoted.

Time to end Yates.

[Yates]

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.
I thought you were going to hang me on the fact I said MoI was here for post 1855 when he didn't actually replace in until 1946. That's the only "lie" I told.

[Acosmist]

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.
I thought you were going to hang me on the fact I said MoI was here for post 1855 when he didn't actually replace in until 1946. That's the only "lie" I told.

Get your vote and your fingerprints on this lynch, buddy. I accepted your deal.

Come on. Let's go.

[Acosmist]

Lynch all liars.

Okay. You lied first so we'll lynch you first and go on from there. Deal?

Let's go.

[Yates]

Sure, I'll

Vote: Acosmist

I was probably going to vote you anyway barring new information so why not.

[Acosmist]

Sure, I'll

Vote: Acosmist

I was probably going to vote you anyway barring new information so why not.

No, the reason you are doing that is you are now locked in this. If I flip town, you self-vote tomorrow and the rest of the town piles on.

Don't pretend this is about anything else.

[Yates]

Whatever, Acosmist.

All you had to do to prove you weren't backpedaling was answer post 2400. I'm pretty comfortable with this vote since you wouldn't and you couldn't.

[AngryPidgeon]

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.
I thought you were going to hang me on the fact I said MoI was here for post 1855 when he didn't actually replace in until 1946. That's the only "lie" I told.

Caught for the wrong reasons tell?

Ok, no, no NO.

Mastin V MoI was fucking stupid enough without any help.

Can we PLEASE agree on a good scum wagon? Zabriel? Elscouta?

[Acosmist]

Whatever, Acosmist.

All you had to do to prove you weren't backpedaling was answer post 2400. I'm pretty comfortable with this vote since you wouldn't and you couldn't.

You have to be comfortable, because you're dying today or tomorrow.

[Yates]

Caught for the wrong reasons tell?

Apparently.

How is Zab scummier than Acosmist right now? Also, you realize he is hinting at a PR, right?

[Acosmist]

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.
I thought you were going to hang me on the fact I said MoI was here for post 1855 when he didn't actually replace in until 1946. That's the only "lie" I told.

Caught for the wrong reasons tell?

Ok, no, no NO.

Mastin V MoI was fucking stupid enough without any help.

Can we PLEASE agree on a good scum wagon? Zabriel? Elscouta?

We have time. Zab is also scum, and Elscouta very well could be. So just lynch them after my death confirms Yates as scum. We're already ahead due to Tammy dying and Tammy killing mafia day 1. There is plenty of time to burn a day to confirm scum. Better now than endgame, right?

[Yates]

Withdraw that last sentence. I had him confused with Kise.

[AngryPidgeon]

@Yates: Who are your other scum reads? You said you didn't particularly like an Acosmist vote earlier.
Did you read my Zabriel wall? Thoughts?

[Yates]

It's not that I didn't like it, I just wanted to know the rational behind it.

I'd have to go take another look at your Zab wall to comment. Off the top of my head I still have concerns about the BC/WC slot and the shah/mykonian slot.

[mykonian]

I'm losing you guys again. I can't make sense out of these posts, I don't understand what you are talking about.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This one is easy to show. I get mislynched often and early.

So I looked at your last 5 completed Town games and looked at the game, when you were lynched (if lynched), and whether Eloscuta was in the game.

Micro 65 – No Town Lynched – You were Town, lynched Day 1, and no sign of Eloscuta in the game.

Micro 20 – Clueless Mafia – You were Town, lynched Day 2, no sign of Eloscuata. This Micro ended on Day 3.

Newbie 1282 – You were Town, lynched Day 4 to end the game, and no sign of Eloscuta.

Elemental Madness – You were Town, replaced in Day 2 and were lynched Day 2, no sign of Eloscuta.

Micro 1 – You were Town, endgamed on Day 4, no sign of Eloscuta.

So based on this I have the following questions for you.

1. Do you and Eloscuta have some relationship that obvious because he didn’t appear in any of the player-lists above? Is he an alt? I’m very curious as to why you answered the question for him before he could.
2. The results above are a mixed bag. Elemental Madness where you replaced in and were lynched the same Day. Micro 65 to some degree also supports it (except for the fact that being lynched as Town in that set-up doesn’t NECESSARILY remove you from the game so it isn’t a pure Apples to Apples to here). Meanwhile both Micro 1 and Newbie 1282 (and yes, I am factoring in that it is a Newbie to this discussion) suggest you professed meta isn’t accurate. Micro 20 is a push (you were lynched Day 2 when the game ended Day 3 … not exactly ‘early’ in context). Is there any other evidence that comes to mind that really makes your self-professed meta really viable?
3. What does the fact that according to Mod Vote-Counts you haven’t drawn more than 1 vote until Day 3 say in regards to your “I’m lynchbait when Town, I survive long term when scum”?

These questions, of course, all go to the heart of the mykonian - Eloscuta relationship that I see here.

--

Really? You think this has nothing to do with the fact that people were questioning name claims earlier [Solid Snake, for example]?

Who are these people and why didn’t said revelation cause you to question them about the fake-claim issue and investigate whether they should know that fake-claims are the norm in Theme games?

This goes back to what I had perceived as an inconsistency in theory. If you were against keeping Tammy [who you had marked as scum] alive to test the PGO claim only to risk a potential Town to test it later I had a case to make.

Obviously, the case is withdrawn since I was mistaken about the timing surrounding certain events.

Aside from the fact that you made your case based on incorrect facts you could have checked with a simple click of an ISO button ….

So you were all for letting a scum (and, no, scum includes both Serial Killers and Mafia … it means not-Town before you go off on another nitpick avenue as opposed to addressing the issue) with a proven kill live another day when there was ZERO percent chance that she would actually test Acosmist as claimed. Is that correct? Because the only way Tammy actually tests Acosmist is if she is Town and Benmage’s guilty rendered that an invalid possibility. Just because she said she would to get another day’s lease on life doesn’t mean it makes any sense she actually would. So yes – I didn’t want a Non-Town killer to live because they were Non-Town. But I do think having a possible scum player test the PGO claim on someone I think is Town (and therefore not lying) is a good course of action.

You going to assert that is scum-motivated?

I have already had to relink direct quotes to Tammy claiming she WOULD test the PGO and that she WOULD kill based on majority vote because people were arguing to the contrary even after she had posted she would. So I wanted to put the fake claim business to bed.

It was put to bed the second Tammy flipped. So you weren’t doing anything but stating the obvious there.

LOL @Acosmist - Quote 2451 is actually the truth and verifiable.

Direct links to the posts you think proves 2451 ASAP.

--

So you are going to say that everyone off the Tammy wagon was scummy? I mean I agree that Elscouta/Mykonian/KK are, but I don't think being on either side of the Tammy fence is a good alignment indicator.

No. People can be wrong about game theory and still Town. I would argue that all scum were not either on or off the Tammy wagon. The fact remains that Yates’s stated reasoning for wanting to wagon Acosmist is scummy given the circumstances.

@MoI: Acosmist was the leading counterwagon when you replaced in.

I agree in that he had 3 votes. There was no chance that Acosmist was getting lynched yesterday given we had a guilty on Tammy and no compelling reason not to hang. I'm going to the heart of Yates's statements - that he keeps moving the goalposts and then withdraws his accusation when pressured.

[mastin2]

Happy scumday, mod.

I dunno, I dont like that you both keep tunneling each other. Scum might be elsewhere.

Which is exactly what he wants.

I've been trying to avoid a head-on confrontation, a wall-to-wall battle, for exactly this reason: Because it makes people think townVtown, when it's not. Yes, I'm obvtown, but...

MoI im still not sure but his case on myk makes so much sense and its what ive been pointing out for a while.

...This is the exact reason that MoI is scum. He's using words which make a lot of sense to push on people who are easy to wagon.

Me, easy enough; people go "WTF?!?" with my posting and were not fond of Cyber's.
Myk, easy enough; people didn't like his predecessor and haven't liked some of his actions. (Mind you, they're ignoring mindset and intention. What's the scum motive for myk's actions? I've looked, I see the possibility, and I'll acknowledge that it

is

possible

to make a picture with a scum mindset. However, you also have to ask the counter-question: What's the town motive for myk's actions? And when looking, that is far stronger.)
El, pretty easy, since El's new to the game and El replaced RC, who was mislynch bait. (Bait I, for instance, almost fell into.)
Zab, easy, since Zab isn't the strongest player. (But this is Zab's town-play.)

He's making cases which appear to be logical based off of words, based off of surface-play, but his cases at their core are not addressing the fundamental nature of motive*.

*Okay, so he does paint a picture with myk to show scum intent, but only myk. He hasn't shown why I-as-scum would do anything I've done, nor any other suspect than myk. And as I said, though he paints the picture for myk-as-scum, and while I can

see

the

possible

picture, it's weaker than the town picture, the town reasons and the town motive.

In other news - was there anything of value in the message you received?

It's exactly as Tammy said--the messenger gave me a list of reads. That's the best way to summarize it. Sure, I could easily paraphrase what the reads were, but for obvious reasons, I would prefer not to. The messenger is town, and giving contents of the message can help the scum identify who the messenger is.

Feel like town MoI would agree in a 1v1 with Mastin, while continuning to argue with anyone else about everything. I feel like that is his normal scumhunting style and right now he's phoning it in or faking it.

Exactly my point. >_<
This is not his normal scumhunting as town.

She had proven she wasn’t going to test Acosmist’s claim when she shot ThAd.

Saying this more times won't make it any more true than it was the first time. She

was

willing, but most of the people telling her to shoot Aco suggested it

after

she had already shot ThAd, and she only shot ThAd because she was pressured into proving her claim then and there. Had she not been pressured to make a kill immediately, had people been allowed to get a consensus on her shooting Aco, she would have.

and then being lynched for not following orders.

Tammy shooting Aco: probability of living, compared to possibility of dieing.
Tammy shooting someone other than Aco, despite town ordering her to: Certainty of dieing, no possibility of living. We spelled this out yesterday. She could shoot Aco and be playing to her wincon. By

not

shoot Aco, she'd be playing

against

her wincon. This is not rocket science, and we laid this out yesterday. It's no less true now than it was then.

He’s saying that Acos (who he calls scum in that post) is only thinking about voting him because I am “crusading” against him (aka he is getting an unexpected avenue of possible attack from an unexpected source). Yet I’m scum (that where his vote currently is). So why is Scum-Acosmist only considering voting mykonian because Scum-MoI is on a crusade? It wouldn't be unexpected if we were scum together. That doesn’t make any sense if Mykonian actually believe that.

Quite the opposite to me. I don't see any contradiction at all.

I do find it likely that one of them is scum and one is Town given the fact that an anonymous Messenger (and both Tammy and mastin have said the person is anonymous) and Neighborizor could create a rather potent synergy with a Cop if all are Town (Cop and Messenger are Neighborized – Cop gets results and Messenger relays those results via anonymous message to an outside party which also serves as a scum-hunting tool the first time by seeing the reaction of the play to the message).

MoI, if you wanted to prove that the roles weren't town, this was not the way to do it. Role synergy like this is

exactly

the kind of thing a mod would have in a game. Town roles are meant to augment and compliment each other in a well-designed setup, with scum roles designed to disrupt and break them apart. Synergy-->town. So you just helped prove that Nero and the messenger are town.

Guys, we are somehow derping harder with Mastin on Vla.

There's a reason for that:
It's called I'm making sense, I'm town, and I'm one of the only voices of good reason.

---

Aco versus Yates is a Yates win.
Why?

The answer's with AV. Look at his iso--the only two he attacks are jason and Yates. Neither's scum.
More than that, Yates has consistently been raising good points, been scumhunting logically, and been showing a good thought process. His train of thought is so incredibly easy to follow as town it's amazing, but his train of thought as scum is broken and jarred.

Aco, on the other hand, has been consistently OMGUS'ing the entire game. No, seriously. Name one suspect. ONE. I dare you to. That Aco has attacked. Who didn't attack him first. I can't really think of any, since every time Aco attacks someone, it comes

after

that player has attacked him. Never before.

[mykonian]

1. Do you and Eloscuta have some relationship that obvious because he didn’t appear in any of the player-lists above? Is he an alt? I’m very curious as to why you answered the question for him before he could.
2. The results above are a mixed bag. Elemental Madness where you replaced in and were lynched the same Day. Micro 65 to some degree also supports it (except for the fact that being lynched as Town in that set-up doesn’t NECESSARILY remove you from the game so it isn’t a pure Apples to Apples to here). Meanwhile both Micro 1 and Newbie 1282 (and yes, I am factoring in that it is a Newbie to this discussion) suggest you professed meta isn’t accurate. Micro 20 is a push (you were lynched Day 2 when the game ended Day 3 … not exactly ‘early’ in context). Is there any other evidence that comes to mind that really makes your self-professed meta really viable?
3. What does the fact that according to Mod Vote-Counts you haven’t drawn more than 1 vote until Day 3 say in regards to your “I’m lynchbait when Town, I survive long term when scum”?

1. I don't know him. Pretty sure I have never played with him.
2. it is when you compare it to the scumgames. Further, I'm sure there are more games. It's something that has been with me from 2008 Micro 65 is the most extreme example obviously, but it's a clear case. I step out to make a case, to get things moving, and it makes me a target. If people want a quick read to confirm it, that would work.
3. That yesterday was dominated by another discussion. Without that, the wagon would have seen 3 or 4 votes (depending on kise).

[Yates]

It was put to bed the second Tammy flipped.

Was it?

Direct links to the posts you think proves 2451 ASAP.

Already done in post 2400. Which I already linked to in post 2507. Which further reinforces my point that I have to

keep

leading horses to water.

[Elscouta]

If people care about my meta, all my games are on my wiki page. I'm not an alt and I have no alt.

[AngryPidgeon]

I've been trying to avoid a head-on confrontation, a wall-to-wall battle, for exactly this reason: Because it makes people think townVtown, when it's not. Yes, I'm obvtown, but...

Myk, easy enough; people didn't like his predecessor

IIRC, everyone said Shah was obvtown. Some people didn't like Myk's Melmond hammer. And some (me included) didn't like his unexplainable lie wrt lynching Tammy.

and giving contents of the message can help the scum identify who the messenger is.

But you already narrowed down the messenger pool heavily >.>

Aco, on the other hand, has been consistently OMGUS'ing the entire game. No, seriously. Name one suspect. ONE. I dare you to. That Aco has attacked. Who didn't attack him first. I can't really think of any, since every time Aco attacks someone, it comes after that player has attacked him. Never before.

OMGUS isn't a scumtell though.

Ok, lets not talk about Tammy. (Except that Mykonian's stance on it was obviously fake and he deserves death for that alone). But, in general, people's opinion on the correct play wrt Tammy is not alignment indicative. And Tammy may or may not have cooperated. Both sides of the argument are valid and NOT indicative of alignment. I'm goign to start calling for a PL on anyone somkescreening with more Tammy lynch spec. Mastin, is there no way I can convince you to lynch Mykonian today? He won't flip town. And a scum flip from him essentially clears MoI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

*Okay, so he does paint a picture with myk to show scum intent, but only myk. He hasn't shown why I-as-scum would do anything I've done, nor any other suspect than myk. And as I said, though he paints the picture for myk-as-scum, and while I can see the possible picture, it's weaker than the town picture, the town reasons and the town motive.

Um, no. Now I know you dodged comment on my Post 2238 directly earlier behind your typical limp-wristed rhetoric earlier but now that you say this you’ve gotten to put up or shut up time.

I’ve laid out quite clearly why mykonian’s play surrounding Tammy does not come from a Town perspective because he lies about his motivations for unvoting.

He votes at 1259 based on the Guilty.
He unvotes at 1268, says that Tammy should prove her ability (which makes little sense as she wouldn’t fake-claim Dayvig with a real one around), and fishes for a full-claim from Ben.
He pushes that Town Tammy MUST shoot Ben – Kise has already addressed this but this is Win-Win for scum mykonian as a stance. He knows she isn’t his partner (and after the fact we know the guilty was valid) so no matter what Tammy does she’s screwed. Either she shoots Ben (and helps out scum) and is lynched because of it or she refuses to shoot Ben and gives himself a reason to re-vote regardless of who she shoots.
He revotes Tammy at 1405 with the following directly taken lines from his ISO …

The problem is still that she makes the last choice (as she did with thadmiral here), which wasn't the choice of a majority of town. I'm doubtful that she'll act like a second lynch.

If it's indeed day-sk/one scumteam, we should lynch her today, or in two days, to end up at a uneven number. After that, the fact that the SK is gone simply means more mislynches for us as there are less townies getting shot.

So he acknowledges she can’t bet Town and will NOT act as a second lynch. Next look at the bolded – he states the exact same theory I had to push for Tammy’s lynch (elongating the game by removing the second kill to give more time for effective scum-hunting) and specifically says she should either by lynched today or in two days

TO PRESERVE THE END OF DAY LIVING TOTAL AT AN UNEVEN NUMBER

. That’s important so I bolded it because later on he directly contradicts himself on this very point.

And here’s where he does it (post-2080) where he unvotes her via Pidgey vote and agrees with Tammy that she should live til tomorrow due to the Evens / Odds situation

WHEN THE DAY 2 LYNCH PUT US ON ODDS

, which was the lynchpin of his reasoning why she should be lynched either Day 2 or Day 4 in 1405. This shows scum motivation as it illustrates he actually doesn’t believe what he is saying in thread and just moving his vote as best predicated to make himself look better. In this case there was a clear (and dumb, but clear) movement in thread where people were saying “Only scum wants to lynch Tammy”. Thus he moves himself off the wagon so that his play “supports” a Town motivation.

There … all laid out nice for you again. Please indicate where I’m incorrect if you aren’t going to dodge it again.

Saying this more times won't make it any more true than it was the first time. She was willing, but most of the people telling her to shoot Aco suggested it after she had already shot ThAd, and she only shot ThAd because she was pressured into proving her claim then and there. Had she not been pressured to make a kill immediately, had people been allowed to get a consensus on her shooting Aco, she would have.

Nope. She wouldn’t have and you suggesting otherwise is sad.

Tammy was a Serial Killer. We know that for a fact. As such she could not know whether Acosmist was fake-claiming or not. Also a fact.

Shooting him risked her dying as a response. That is playing against her Wincon. Period. Because if she shoots elsewhere (as she did with ThAd) there is a chance she hits scum again and maybe she escapes the noose. And with the number of stupid / scum arguing for her leashing and the clear inability to get a ‘consensus’ as to who to shoot she had plausible denyability to say “Hey, player X is a strong Town read and they said shoot Player Y”.

Luckily I was here to make sure that level of stupidity didn’t continue.

Quite the opposite to me. I don't see any contradiction at all.

Of course you don’t. Just like you say everything I say means the opposite. It’s part in parcel of why your case is a joke … ever response you make is predicated on the incorrect “MoI is scum” stance and you are simply attempting to shore up your tattered position by looking “Confident”. So either stupid Town or foolish scum you’ve latched yourself on to the position and are willing to look stupid to be consistent.

MoI, if you wanted to prove that the roles weren't town, this was not the way to do it. Role synergy like this is exactly the kind of thing a mod would have in a game. Town roles are meant to augment and compliment each other in a well-designed setup, with scum roles designed to disrupt and break them apart. Synergy-->town. So you just helped prove that Nero and the messenger are town.

So that is the kind of synergy you put in your Mini Normal right ... a Miller / Roleblocker/ Doctor. Oh that's right ... no synergy there at all. In fact just ways for all three roles to be disbelieved.

Allowing Town to anonymously out Sane Cop results in a manner that means scum have to keep shooting blindly (via Nightkill and Roleblocker) make little sense balance-wise with what we know exists in the set-up. I'll chalk this up to you either living in the 'hypothetical world that plays well in MS but actually doesn't apply to actual games' if you are Town or 'more making crap up to support your position' if scum.

[zabriel]

Yates: a problem with that theory is that it did take Tammy a long-ass time to give us a name. I feel like if she's been given a guarantee it'd have come out earlier. I don't know Metal Gear so I don't know if Johnny Sasaki is a big deal or not, but she definitely had time to do some research.

Reading Wiki...

Yeah, Johnny's a comic relief character with bowel problems. I really don't think it was that ballsy a fake-claim. I am actually going to agree that the suggestion looks inorganic with the information we've got right now.

[AngryPidgeon]

Zabriel, what wagon do you most support right now?

Why is Acosmist PL worthy?