Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Because Zoro being town relies on Aco being town.
They share the same alignment.
If one's town, they both are.

However, far more important, if one's scum,

they both are scum

for that very same post. (AP, ironically enough, was the first to suggest as much, although he crossed it out.)

[mykonian]

Tl /Dr ... spam spam

WE HAVE 2? DAYS TO DEADLINE AND HAVENT AGREED ON 1 LYNCH.

HOW WILL WE EVER AGREE ON A DOUBLE LYNCH.

Lets be honest, we wasted a lot of time on the tammy at the start of the day.

And two days is enough to get a lynch, DON'T PANIC

[Kublai Khan]

Alright, then.
1: Join me on his wagon. We're flashwagoning either him or WC, but pidgey's off the table, at least for today.

Hm..

vote: MagnaofIllusion

You realize I'd be way more in favor of a Kise-lynch, right?

We haven't come to a lynch.... one lynch. And you want to use a double day? I just erased such plausibility. Bam. Get fucked.

> Fights against a good plan
> Argues plan is bad because it hasn't happened yet

Benmage is the GOP of this game.

[PeregrineV]

Hey, PV, what do you think of MoI?

Keep in mind, MoI = Zoro, who if I'm not mistaken, you had some suspicion of.

I think that MoI replacing in 50 pages would have a lot more material to discuss in addition to the current topic of should we lynch Tammy.

I think that town-MoI never gives up an advantage for town, and having a controlled vig/kill-attractor combo is a huge plus for town. And it's purely by luck. If Tammy had claimed the dayvig shot on AV day1, I doubt BenMage would have investigated her, meaning she would have been perceived as town and freer to act than she is now that she's caught.

And I mentioned your response to my suspicion a few posts up. Kind of want to hear how each scumminess (Zoro-MoI) was weighted in your read on that slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You understand game balance, right?

Double-Days are rarely, if at all, non-vanilla because having two lynches is a huge advantage to town. So much of an advantage that they don't need additional power roles.

Yes I understand game balance.

The implicit argument you are making here is that DoubleDay is overwhelmingly Town sided. Yet there is no ‘evidence’ of that in any meaningful way that I have seen. The Wiki shows that more Vanilla DoubleDay games have been won by scum than Town (1 Mafia Win and 1 Town win for DoubleDay per Wiki, 2 Mafia wins and 1 Town win for DoubleDay Unlimited). This sample size is so small it is frankly meaningless and I’m not taking it as gospel since, you know, it is the Wiki and thus probably very incomplete.

Again – do you have anything you can point me to that suggests in any way the unproven premise you are floating actually reflects reality from actual games?

Yes, do you not understand the argument? Cop has a guilty on someone who is not on the scum faction. Scum will wagon that like no tomorrow and have much to gain from having town lynch someone that they ordinarily have to night-kill.

Scum can just as easily endgame said role as take the proactive (and clearly controversial) stance that removing a Non-Town killer as long as they are not ‘shot’. So you are playing ‘hypothetical’ and I don’t really care to buy into that given every example I have ever seen of ‘leashing’ turned out poorly for Town.

Show me something to change my mind. Until then I don’t think this discussion is changing either of our minds.

"I can't counter Khan's arguments, so let me bring up the fact that he's been wrong in the past."

Actually I have countered your arguments. You don’t agree. Those are different things.

Giving the SK's power to town hurts scum. Scum must kill the SK. What is difficult about understanding the concept. How come you can only talk about and ask for precedents? Why can't you logic right?

Scum don’t have to kill the Serial Killer if his ‘guided’ shots don’t hit scum. That’s the key missing link to your premise that isn’t fact yet you seem to be glossing over that.

Look at Tammy’s shot today. Was there “Town consensus” on shooting ThAd? Why do you expect better results tomorrow regardless of whether the answer is Yes or No? Day 1’s lynch also isn’t very compelling evidence that Town is going to ‘Leash the Beast’ effectively.

My sentence structure is correct. It's just a little muddled. I'm asking if you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK to be scummy.

No, not at this stage with the information I have access to. I’d lean that it is probably more likely we are in a Mafia + Serial Killer set-up given the size of the game but it would not be astonishing for it to be Multiball.

Do you think that it is inherently scummy at this stage?

[mastin2]

You realize I'd be way more in favor of a Kise-lynch, right?

I know, but I don't think I can get enough support for him.
Plus, as much info as a Kise lynch generates, a MoI lynch gives a LOT more, as it also sheds light on Aco's alignment thanks to AV's post. And quite frankly, when it comes to scum players getting their act together, I don't really have much fear of Kise stepping up his game and suddenly becoming obvtown to all despite him being scum.
I do know that MoI can pull it off. It might not give him the win, but I've seen him get to lylo when by all rights he shoulda died long before. All it took was a single game night for him to compose himself, coordinate his play and plan with his scumbuddies.

So, while Kise is good, MoI is better. More support, more info to be gained, more reason to lynch him now.

---

PV, Zoro was town for Aco's claim and Aco's claim alone to me. I made an assumption, that Aco was town with his claim, and wrote him off. So when I discovered the Zoro-Aco relationship AV had, I made the faulty assumption off of my faulty assumption, that made Zoro town.

Then I did an iso of him. Nothin. Zilch. Nothing good, but lots of bad. Interactions only made it worse.
Then comes in MoI, giving up on a gamebreakingly powerful strategy (which, as you yourself mention,

is something town-MoI would never do

) in favor of pushing the easy way out, while discrediting everyone off the wagon without actual scumhunting.

It's bad to worse to worst. MoI's probably a stronger scumread than Aco, and is right up there fighting with Kise for #1. In fact, the more MoI posts, the more he begins to surpass Kise.

[Kise]

To answer why @KK:

1) Lessens the time deciding what to do tomorrow if Tammy lives past today
2) Shows whether a majority decision CAN be made in the first place without butting heads
3) The less time spent talking about who to shoot, the more time to analyze post-flip why people voted for so and so to be shot

Weren't you one of the people bitching about the length of the game so far? How come now you want to shoehorn in a whole separate discussion? How does it impact whether or not you vote for Tammy? Do you realize that if we have the discussion you're proposing now, it only informs the mafia kill?

Instead of bitching, would you prefer I make more one line post? I'd like to condense the pace of the game so it's not as boring as this phase.

Im still on Tammy. Not moving my vote unless it's a hammer on myk. IF Tammy isn't lynched by Thursday, it'd be better (or at least convenient) for you all to discuss what to do now. There's no telling who will live overnight so perhaps a dead man's thoughts could be honored.

RE: Informs the mafia kill... scare tactic. Get your hands dirty in advanced. Scum have enough to go off of based on who wants Tammy alive and who wants her dead today. Depending on which side of the fence they sit, they'll manipulate whoever helps their agenda...if you've had as many scum roles as I have, the previous s is default.

[mastin2]

By the way,

Im still on Tammy. Not moving my vote unless it's a hammer on myk. IF Tammy isn't lynched by Thursday, it'd be better (or at least convenient) for you all to discuss what to do now. There's no telling who will live overnight so perhaps a dead man's thoughts could be honored.

RE: Informs the mafia kill... scare tactic. Get your hands dirty in advanced. Scum have enough to go off of based on who wants Tammy alive and who wants her dead today. Depending on which side of the fence they sit, they'll manipulate whoever helps their agenda...if you've had as many scum roles as I have, the previous s is default.

This is pretty much as much of a scumclaim as you can get. He's explicitly spelling out the scum plan: get Tammy lynched, and shoot the people off of her wagon as they're the only ones showing reason. He's explicitly saying that the scum agenda is to lynch Tammy, and that they'll keep around those who are helping them do so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh how cute ... now that the pidgey wagon has been called out as low-lying fruit scum have regrouped and want to take a run at me.

Let me go find Mastin's quotes to see if what Peregrine is suggesting (that he's completely contradicting himself) is valid.

[Kise]

I don't get ego...

[mastin2]

Oh how cute ... now that the pidgey wagon has been called out as low-lying fruit scum have regrouped and want to take a run at me.

Let me go find Mastin's quotes to see if what Peregrine is suggesting (that he's completely contradicting himself) is valid.

Again. This is not scumhunting. This is trying to discredit those off the Tammy wagon, with an added bonus of OMGUS thrown in.

MoI isn't aiming to lynch scum. He's aiming to cast doubt. On Khan, on me, on everyone off of Tammy, and on Tammy herself for that matter.

This. is. scuMoI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again. This is not scumhunting. This is trying to discredit those off the Tammy wagon, with an added bonus of OMGUS thrown in.

MoI isn't aiming to lynch scum. He's aiming to cast doubt. On Khan, on me, on everyone off of Tammy, and on Tammy herself for that matter.

This. is. scuMoI.

Nope. I'm Town. Throwing down 'Appeals to Repetition' doesn't make anything you say valid or accurate.

You are suggesting you know it is ScumMoI despite the fact that the only time I recall you as being in the same game with me scum (Zach's Large Normal) you completely failed to identify me. So all you are doing is yelling "SCUM SCUM SCUM" Fate style here.

The rest of your case is "Acosmist and MoI are linked" relational tells which you known are meaningless in since there is no flips to be had.

Oh and saying I'm not scum-hunting? That's pretty laughable since in my short time in game I've identified Scumykonian and shown scum intent in his play. Yes, ignore that and pretend otherwise.

You can continue to try to push on these empty statements and fabrications if you want. But you aren't going to get me lynched. So waste your time if you want.

[mastin2]

Throwing down 'Appeals to Repetition' doesn't make anything you say valid or accurate.

Irony at its finest.
Guess what the case against Tammy is?
The same points, hammered in over and over again as if saying them more times will make it any more true.

Guess what the case for keeping Tammy alive is?
Something which has evolved with almost every single post relating to it, bringing in good point after good point after good point with very little repetition, as each and almost every post brings something new to the table with why Tammy should live.

You are suggesting you know it is ScumMoI despite the fact that the only time I recall you as being in the same game with me scum (Zach's Large Normal) you completely failed to identify me.

I read games too, MoI. I've read many games with you as town, and many with you as scum. I can tell the difference, and this discrediting is practically your signature as scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Irony at its finest.
Guess what the case against Tammy is?
The same points, hammered in over and over again as if saying them more times will make it any more true.

You don't understand irony then. Because the case against Tammy is a "Cop Guilty" that no-one other than Tammy disputes. And despite the many ways that ignoring that fact by saying "Oh, she's a Serial Killer we can leash her" that is what you call a pretty compelling case unless you think Benmage is scum or derping as Town (which you don't).

But by all means try to draw parallels between your "SCUM SCUM SCUM" empty repetition and a Cop guilty.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I read games too, MoI. I've read many games with you as town, and many with you as scum. I can tell the difference, and this discrediting is practically your signature as scum.

No you clearly can't since I am Town.

Why the chainsaw for Mykonian by the way? Is he an important scum-role for you guys?

[mykonian]

hey, see, I knew you wouldn't forget about me! I almost thought you would switch to Mastin there for a second.

Hey, you called us both scum! You are the best!

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey, see, I knew you wouldn't forget about me! I almost thought you would switch to Mastin there for a second.

Hey, you called us both scum! You are the best!

Well given that there has to be more than one scum remaining I'm not sure why you would find it unusual that I would have multiple suspects.

But this is the pure kind of scum-hunting that mastin thinks I am lacking - I can tell.

[Yates]

Myk you cant seriously not say im being unuseful WTF.

There are too many negatives in this sentence. It is making my brain hurt. You realize that translates into; "Myk you can seriously say im being unuseful WTF." Is that what you meant to say?

Look at Tammy’s shot today. Was there “Town consensus” on shooting ThAd?

This has already been addressed. She was in a "shoot or die" position and didn't have time to get Town consensus.

[AngryPidgeon]

I think the true irony is that people want to use Tammy as a double-day and we are about to No Lynch because of the entire situation.

A VC would be awesome.

Town:
MoI
Pidgey
Mastin
Acosmist
Ben
PV

Scum:
WrathChild
Mykonian
Kublai Khan
Tammy

Unsure: Yates, Elscouta (actually leaning town here I think), Zabriel (power lurking in a bad way)

Kise/Jason are becoming lesser reads. Snifit too, almost forgot about him.

[Nero Cain]

@mod please stop prodding me. I'm still v/la and will be for a while since I have no home computer. Now if you don't think my activity is up t par you can feel free to replace me but I'm not a flaker.

[pappums rat]

Votecount 2.19

"I see you..." -The End, Metal Gear Solid 3

Tammy - 7 (snifit, Kise, Benmage, pidgey, WrathChild, MagnaofIllusion, Acosmist)
pidgey - 3 (Elscouta, zabriel, jasonT1981)
WrathChild - 3 (Tammy, AngryPidgeon, PeregrineV)
MagnaofIllusion - 3 (mykonian, mastin2, Kublai Khan)
Acosmist - 1 (Yates)

Not voting - Nero Cain

Nero Cain is V/LA

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 2 is 3 PM EST on November 15, 2012.

@mod please stop prodding me. I'm still v/la and will be for a while since I have no home computer. Now if you don't think my activity is up t par you can feel free to replace me but I'm not a flaker.

Sorry about that, I didnt know you were still on V/LA. I am rescinding the prod.

[AngryPidgeon]

Well we have about 46 hours. At this point I'm going to vote for Tammy if we are approaching no lynch. Not willing to vote anyone on my town list.

[mastin2]

Yates, your read on MoI would be much appreciated. You're still on Aco, and your vote's not doing much there.
pidgey - 3 (Elscouta, zabriel, jasonT1981)
WrathChild - 3 (Tammy, AngryPidgeon, PeregrineV)
MagnaofIllusion - 3 (mykonian, mastin2, Kublai Khan)

We can't have it all three ways. Now, I currently think that pidgey's town, so lynching him is suboptimal. WC's viable, but not as good as MoI.

Seriously, who has a townread on MoI for his discrediting? I'll say it again. He's giving "suspects", but he's not giving suspicions. His "scumhunting" consists entirely of discrediting others. Discrediting Khan, discrediting mykonian, discrediting me, discrediting Benmage, discrediting Tammy. Again, that's not scumhunting. His posts have the scum motive in them, to cast doubt on others. Cast doubt on Benmage, cast doubt on Tammy, cast doubt on Khan, myk, and myself. That's not a town-MoI.

Town-MoI would be looking for scum, not looking for people to argue with and intentionally muddy the waters. Town-MoI would realize how gamebreakingly powerful Tammy's shot can be and want to use it. (What was that game which was brought up in the scummies thread? The one which had a double-day D1 and normal days onward? Where the double-day helped break the game? Yeah, MoI was town there and exploited that mechanic to its fullest.)

scuMoI is the kind of player to fight for the sake of fighting, discrediting to try and weaken opposition, would intentionally be muddying the waters, would want to get rid of Tammy because of the threat she poses, and in general? Would be playing

exactly as he is now

.
Add in Zoro's play to the mix, add in how it was a whole lot of nothing, add in how MoI's play is also basically zilch, add in the condemning tie AV made between Zoro and Aco, add in MoI's defense of Aco to solidify it, add in Aco's general play, add in Kise's defense of both of these slots, and you can't get much more obvious than this.

MoI is scum. We're lynching him today, not Tammy, not pidgey, not WC, not even Aco.

[Nero Cain]

Not Snifit?!?

[AngryPidgeon]

discrediting mykonian,

Ok, Mykonian is scumming up the thread like a boss right now. MoI tunneling him is not scummy. Just look at his interactions with the Tammy wagon.

Ya, lets lynch Tammy!
Oops, I mean we should use her to get back to odds (IN A LARGE THEME ON D2), so lets wagon someone else!

And when questioned about this,

Oh! I'm not taking the whole Tammy thing seriously at all; I really don't care!
And IIRC he has been pretending that the whole not-lynch-Tammy plan was good from the start. He definitely flip-floped on his reasons for getting off the Tammy wagon.

To quote MoI: nope.jpg.

If you want to accuse me of being scummy for discrediting Mykonian, go ahead. But, seriously, ISO him and tell me that his stance on Tammy makes one iota of sense.

And the HILARIOUS part of saying that MoI is discrediting people is, gasp, you are discrediting MoI! Prove that MoI was discrediting people. His Mykonian suspicions at least are legitimate. I don't think hes right about you, but I honestly can see him being suspicious given whats happened.