Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Benmage]

Wheras my argument is:

1. Tammy not lynched.
2. Tammy does what town wants.
3. Scum forced to try to NK her.
4. Win-win for town.

Errr.... scum not forced to NK her (in fact probably can't) moreover I sure as hell would not fear a directed SK day shot. Hell I'd manipulate the fuck out of it for mad town cred and pwn you town noobs.

[Benmage]

ITS BEEN 25 pages of NOTHING since I claimed COP.

FTF(me)

[Tammy]

Oh look KK, Tammy ALREADY DIDN'T SHOOT WHO WE TOLD HER TO. GUESS TODAY IS THE DAY TO LYNCH HER, RIGHT? RIGHT!

Bullshit. I didn't shoot who Benmage told me to. You might have suggested BC as well, but there was no majority of town there that night discussing things with me. I said I was choosing between BC or Thad or if anyone else had any suggestions. Myk told me about his list and I gave my opinions on it. You even admitted that Thad was looking suspicious so don't you go about rewriting history.

And the one thing that people aren't taking into consideration when they're talking about the town directing kills is me, actually. You know, I am a competent scum hunter, and you'll have my input as well. I might not be right all the time, and I have been duped before, but I'm still pretty decent at it and I'm good at evaluating people's cases. Scum is down one member because of me anyway. You can call that a luck shot all you want, but I had a scum read and I was right.

[Yates]

Seriously Yates, the actual fuck are you talking about.

Am I not being clear? We obtain a numerically superior advantage by keeping a DV/SK alive. Again, Ben is trying to suggest that the SK killing for the Town is playing against her win condition. I contend that the exact OPPOSITE is the case. If Tammy is an SK, she *has* to kill everyone. That's how she wins, right? So what does it matter to her who she is killing? Now that we know her kill falvor, it is in her best interests to kill whomever we direct her to kill because that buys her another day of life. We know this. She knows this. Scum knows this. Therefore, killing Tammy needs to be a SCUM priority, not a TOWN priority.

we can't agree to lynch Tammy. how can we agree on who gets shot?

Obviously we will need to come to SOME kind of consensus or we won't lynch either, right? I'm sure we will figure this out. Plus, you are forgetting that we WILL have more information tomorrow because there WILL be flips.

I wouldn't mind taking things one lynch at a time but the way the day phases are being dragged out.... if I wasn't patient, I'd be on full lurk mode.

I'm ok with slowing it down a bit for one day to talk strategy. We are in a really unique position here and it would be a shame to ignore our options because people are unable to have civil discourse.

[PeregrineV]

Stop guessing the setup peregrine.

Didn't think I was.

Why are you so concerned scum is going to direct the vig but you haven't expressed that concern about them directing the lynch? If we use majority vote we can track who and why people want to vig other players.

Also, we can keep Tammy around for 2 days + one day for every scum she hits.
Town-town-Tammy lynch.
Scum-town-town-Tammy lynch
Town-scum-town-Tammy lynch
Scum-Scum-Scum-Tammy lynch

Of course, adjusted as needed by Ben's results + if we lynch scum that day.

@Ben- Why can't we afford it now? We're at pretty much the same spot as if we lynched scum yesterday. We all know she is going to die eventually, why are you against using her powers as an extra lynch?

[mykonian]

Guys, you are making this game hard for me. You skipped through three pages and I read them twice now and I can't make much sense out of it. AP seems to be making sense a lot of the time, he's looking pretty townie.

1778, by WC. "Dude, there's a guilty on Tammy. It kind of needs to be done." is the worst way to go about this. Shut down your mind and follow the rules, whether they make sense or not.

The special part here, which might make this an exception is that tammy specifically stated that "she acted with a town motivation". And I think she's a nice girl who likes to be town more then scum, so you could abuse her as a sort of dayvig for some time. It simply makes this not a clear cut case.

1779 is mastin again going nowhere. Basic bandwagonning.

Benmages 1783 is cool. Confirms problems with WC.

1804 is KK being a dick. Yay, I found a friend. Scum as hell btw if I were KK and made that post. If he is scum I know what manipulation he did there. It's pretty nice in that case. Not so cool as town. Snifit knows.

Benmages 1810 is spot on.

No clue what acosmist wanted to say with 1817

1824 is simply reclaiming... don't see the point.

AngryPidgeon's 1846 is spot on. If the mod doesn't want tammy to cooperate with town, he shouldn't have put in a cop who could investigate her or shouldn't have put in a SK.

@Yates 1849: I argue she did go rogueish. That's kind of the point, I fear. She's a nice girl and she'll try to help town, but I don't trust her to do it well.

And then we get a mess between Jason and Kise. Who I never hear of in any positive way.


I think that people who don't want a tammy lynch should propose something else. I mean propose, and not blind bandwagonning like mastin is doing.

[Benmage]

@Ben- Why can't we afford it now? We're at pretty much the same spot as if we lynched scum yesterday. We all know she is going to die eventually, why are you against using her powers as an extra lynch?

Take everything I've been saying in its totality.

A. We don't know what tomorrow may bring.
B. This Tammy smokescreen issue with play out everyday she lives. We have 25 pages of it already. This games progression has been completely ruined because of this stagnation. What kills towns more than scum or anything else??

Apathy

... If we continue to be divide an apathetic town will ensue and we will lose. The SK has to die. One says today... One says later. But all agree she must die. End this division and yield for her to die already so that we may all return to scumhunting and end this blackhole-gamesucking-leech.
C. An argument over "optimal" lynch time will ensue anytime her lynch is suggested. (Refer back to A, we don't know what tomorrow brings)

[Benmage]

I wouldn't mind taking things one lynch at a time but the way the day phases are being dragged out.... if I wasn't patient, I'd be on full lurk mode.

More on this.

If we continue this ramble we will have town members going lurk mode. Than we will have scum hiding in the smokescreen, because they can stick to one side, and lurkkkkk. We won't be able to tell the difference. The game will implode if we don't handle this.

Optimal time is now.

[mastin2]

I'm going to say it, as many times as I need to say it.

Tammy. Is. NOT. Bulletproof.

Her daykill can't be watched, nor tracked. That makes her kill a ninja-kill, since as d1 proved, she can keep the kills private.
Her daykill can't be blocked by a protective role. That makes her kill strongman, since it overcomes any protection a player may have.
Her kill can act as a governor, since if she, say, used it near the end of the day, it'd reset the votecount as shown already, meaning that anyone close to a lynch no longer is.

On top of that, you're suggesting she ALSO has BULLETPROOF protection? That'd make it so that Benmage would be the ONLY role that could find her. Otherwise, she'd cruise to victory--no lynching, since she's a day-killing machine and her dayvigs would be seen as dayvigs, not as day-SK-shots. No tracking, since she can't. No watching, since she can't. Benmage would be her one. and. ONLY. weakness, if she were bulletproof. That'd be the most souped-up SK I've ever seen, so bluntly,

NO

.

Tammy's vulnerable to being nightkilled, and suggesting otherwise is ignoring basic balance, role mechanics, and in general, is just plain. simple. Fearmongering.

[Acosmist]

Hey let's pile on a few dozen more pages to scare away future replacements!

OPTIMAL STRATS HERE

[pidgey]

Funny story

I played one game with an SK that was also a cop, his kills were untrackable, unwatchable, and unblockable, had copying abilities, and different type of ways to kill too.

My moto is mafia is expect everything

[mastin2]

The argument for letting Tammy Live:
Her shot gives us a second lynch, her lynch is not a mafia-lynch, she gives us a statistical advantage, lynching someone else sheds light on the setup and gives us new information, whereas lynching her gives us nothing we don't already know, the scum have to NK her sooner or later because they're going to need her dead, the scum are pushing hard for her mislynch, and probably half a dozen other points I'm forgetting.

The argument for lynching Tammy?
She's BP; the scum won't kill her (false), we don't need the advantage (but we can certainly use it), she's scum (she's not mafia, though), she sheds light on the setup (she doesn't; we know everything about her already), the scum can influence her shots (they can influence lynches just as much), "KK is advocating against it, so let's do it", she's muddying the waters so she needs to die (false--it's lynching Tammy which muddies the waters, and lynching someone else which gives us direction), and that we need to lynch her sooner or later (false--see also, SHE IS NOT BP).

Plain and simple. The points for lynching Tammy are subjective and have little basis in reality. Each has a grain of truth to them, but none of them when analyzed hold water.
The points for letting Tammy live are objective and have been clearly defined. A few of the points may not have been properly explained (like mine, that it's a scumdriven wagon, but I think that should explain itself when it comes down to motive), but most of them have.

tl;dr, Lynching Tammy is a strategical error based off of faulty reasoning.

[Benmage]

@KISE

Hey dude didn't one of your enix games have essentially scum factions with daykills?

@All I mean.. this is a theme'd game. We have no idea of the setup. There's clearly MGS n HP.... We have a guilty. There could very likely be a daykill faction. We simply don't know. Not killing a guilty, is suboptimal. Period.

[Benmage]

tl;dr, Lynching Tammy is a strategical error based off of faulty reasoning.

No. Because town is minority in the dark. Killing her gives the most info.

[Benmage]

err majority in dark.

[mastin2]

By the way, I will not be looking for scum outside the Tammy wagon. (With the exception of Zoroaster, who I suspect is only off the wagon because he's behind, and if he were caught up, would be on said wagon.)

The person on the wagon showing the most logic is Angry Pidgeon.

Angry Pidgeon

.

The fact that, of all the players on the wagon, the player being most reasonable is AP should give you an idea of what the nature of the wagon is:
Complete. total. Bullshit.

[Benmage]

Into Africa
Another game with a scumfaction day killing ability^.

[Tammy]

Uh huh...cool story. For anyone spreading the mutifaction BS and that I'm part of some team. Take a deep breath and ask yourselves why benmage is still alive? Think about it.

[pidgey]

Omg mastin is that a thread? I think im scared now. What do!?!?!

Half the players are maki bsense the others are just following the logical solution for today. Lynch a guilty.

The fact that you are copying other players opinions regarding AP reafirms my scum read on you.

[Benmage]

Uh huh...cool story. For anyone spreading the mutifaction BS and that I'm part of some team. Take a deep breath and ask yourselves why benmage is still alive? Think about it.

You're part of 2 man scumteam. Your partner is inv-immune. You're NK-immune. The best bet for your team is for you to live as long as possible.

We cool?

We have no idea what the setup is. You are not town. Period.

[mastin2]

All evidence points to a single-faction game.
Multi-faction talk, just like Tammy-is-BP, is nothing but fearmongry.

We have clear lynch candidates other than Tammy--strongest of them being Aco. Almost every single point made about Tammy being an optimal lynch (which, as my above posts demonstrate, is false) can also be made for Aco being an optimal lynch.
Aco muddies the waters with his claim, we need him dead sooner or later, the scum aren't going to kill him, his claim can't be proven, he can't be investigated, he's a distraction, he's not showing town motive, etc.

So why Tammy (sub-optimal) rather than Aco?

[Benmage]

Why is Acos a strong lynch candidate again?

Tell me the case on him?

[Benmage]

he's not showing town motive, etc.

Subjective.

Where was the PL the PGO d1?

[Benmage]

If anything acos has been way more town today than his uselessness yesterday.

[mastin2]

Aco's play has been, in a word, safe.
He's never strongly pushed for something, he's playing reactionarily rather than taking actions, he's consistently on the defensive and showing concern for his own life, he's done very little actual scumhunting, his reads have been highly sheepish, so overall, he's an active lurker, who isn't at all using his PGO claim to push strongly against his suspects. (Speaking of which, he has close to none.) He's done plenty of buddying and lots of parroting others, not contributing his own voice to the discussion.
Interactions with other players I suspect are just the icing on top of the cake.

Add in all the points about his claim, and how they're much the same as the points for Tammy (only more optimized), and he's a VERY strong lynch candidate.