Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Mert]

Vote: cardb0ardb0x

[Mert]

Vote Glork

for wanting the king dead

Ah, the Macbeth manoeuver.

[Mert]

I'm not sure I'd say random voting is entirely pointless in this game, though it obviously means less in real terms than in a normal one. There is still the chance that someone will push for a wagon or that someone will react to having a few votes on them, which may lead to discussion.

I don't think it's the world's biggest deal if people don't want to but I'd certainly stop short of saying there's no point at all.

Talking of discussion, are people happy with the "List of Execution" system that was used in the last game? To those lucky people that were in the first one, do you feel that it worked sufficiently or would you change the mechanics? To those that weren't (myself included), I guess a more general question of whether you think there should be rules that the King must follow and if so, what (and how prescriptive) should they be?

[Mert]

Well I'm not personally sure if this makes things too prescriptive or not, but when I was reading Kingmaker before I was wondering over the possibility of having two King-nominated and two town-nominated candidates per day that go onto the LoE. Obviously the King still makes the final decision, but maybe the town-nominated players cannot be removed from the List without consensus (and carry over to the next day) whereas the King ones change daily and can be added/removed at will by the King.

But meh, I'm not sure if it'd cause more problems for the town than it'd solve to be honest. If anyone has any ideas on the above proposal, then I'd love to hear them. If you think it's rubbish then I won't be offended because I'm still undecided myself. Just thought I'd throw it out there as a possible alternative.

[Mert]

Discussion Topic #1

:Nevertheless, I have yet to think of a

better

system, so go figure.

Well clearly the main purpose should be that the King is accountable to the town without having a fall-back of "well, the town told me to". It needs to be clear that the King's decision is his or her own, but they must also accept that the town has a right to disseminate their actions and that they have a responsibility to discuss how they came to their decision on who to execute. Since we don't have any cops in this game there should be no worry about outing themselves, so I see no reason not to say "I will execute so-and-so, for the reasons x, y and z."

Hmmm, having said that, there is a risk that someone could catch scum by using a particular method and we don't necessarily want to be announcing that method so that scum can change their tactics overnight. Now I'm confused. How about we suggest that each King may operate in their own way but must give some reasons for their actions (if not final reasons for execution, should it not be appropriate) and must give everybody the opportunity to defend themselves prior to execution? Maybe we could also say that Kings must announce at the beginning of their reign that they will be using the LoE or some other system of their choosing and must explain, if asked, why they have decided to use that system?

[Mert]

This is my first time playing any kind of Kingmaker game, so I won't offer any opinion about what PJ said simply because I have no basis for comparison.

I think that makes you the ideal candidate to talk about some of it though. Many of the players in this game were in the last one and a few more have read through it (I know I have... it seems quite famous 'round these parts). A fresh set of eyes on some of PJ's thoughts might be exactly what is required.

[Mert]

come on, guys. please read my explanation in post 84... not just the bold "vote" sign. *obviously* my little vote there wasn't going to get glork lynched, i had just been instructed that people were supposed to vote a lot in this game, to give the king an idea of what everyone's thinking.

There's really not much else I can say in my defense that i didn't say already, so I'll just be quiet for now. As long as I can. I know there are a lot of posts and theres huge flooding, but please read my entire post and think about it.

Sounds to me like you're setting up future plausible deniability when your voting trail doesn't check out. If you're found to be voting for a bunch of innocents you can say you were just voting a lot because you were told to. Conversely, if you're found to be not voting enough you can say "yeah, well everyone told me off for voting too eagerly before".

The only reason I'm not going to vote for you in this post is that I already randomly voted for you and now you've given me reason not to remove it.

While I'm on the subject,

Vote: Mastermind of Sin; Vote: bird1111

All three are generally removing the effectiveness of an analysis of voting patterns in different ways. Cardb0ardb0x I've addressed above, MoS by refusing to vote at all and Bird by talking about how his votes were a joke and he doesn't see the point in votes in this game etc etc.

[Mert]

fine. lynch me. if, after you lynch me, i'm a townie, just please, like, examine mrbuddylee. he's kind of obnoxious. if town wins, i'll count it as a win for me even if i'm lynched in the first round.

honestly, i trust pj to make the right descision. and actually read what i write. i admit i made factual errors in my earlier posts. i know i'm easy to bandwagon. no self-respecting mafia player would NOT vote for me. Sorry for distracting everybody during the first round and wasting a lynch.

Man, I'm starting to hate the woe is me approach to these things. A protown move would be to explain your actions and play it cool. People make mistakes, it's human nature. But to just give up and say "well, fine. Lynch me if you want to" doesn't help the town and doesn't help you stay alive. You're never in a Catch 22 as there's always a counter-argument. And besides, if someone keeps pushing you into a Catch 22 type environment, that might help find scum in itself.

But yeah, move to make addition to PJ's list of things he doesn't want to see: woe is me posts.

As for Bird, I didn't say you didn't acknowledge the point of voting, I said you look like you're setting up plausible deniability for the future if someone calls you on your voting patterns. By making "joke" posts and trivialising the purpose of votes in this game, you could be setting up a mechanism whereby you can say "hey, I'm the sort of guy that makes joke votes! Don't look at my record in

too

much scrutiny!"

[Mert]

So we have MoS saying he won't vote, but his suspicions will be laid out in full and we should take note of his words rather than his voting pattern. Then, on the other hand, we have Phoebus saying he plays by gut and may not bother making cases against people, leaving only his votes to indicate his thoughts.

That's quite a tag-team.

[Mert]

Vote: Mert

for trying to tie two players together, however subtly.

I wasn't trying to tie them together so much as point out that their respective attitudes would be a pain for the town. I was more indicating that the two extremes are bad for the town and that the middleground is where I think it'd be best for people to be.

Can see how it'd look like I was marrying the two together though, just know that it wasn't my intention.

[Mert]

And actually, that "citizan" wording makes me wonder. Not that it really matters yet, but could a hero become a king this game, or not?

Heh, you went to the effort of copying and pasting the Kingmaker description from the front page but didn't read the Hero role while you were at it?

The Hero can become King unless someone tries to execute them and their role is revealed, after which point they can no longer reign.

[Mert]

Okay, I reread cb0x's posts and the reactions to his posts about five times, and I dunno. He's striking me as townie, even though he was scummy with his logic for his votes and analyses on players. As has been mentioned, this is almost

eerily

reminescent of RandomActs in the original game (although cb0x at least has not threatened the town with being a power role).

D.) An overwhelming self-imposed need to execute scum today, since failing in doing so will probably doom me to a similar fate of TSS in Kingmaker I

Generally I have had no problem with PJ being King today, though the above strikes me as slightly odd. I agree that there's some parity between cb0x and RA, but I'm not sure that that should encourage PJ to think of him as necessarily town in itself.

I do understand why those parallels have been drawn, but it's the second quote that makes me worry about it - I don't want PJ to be wary of attacking Cb0x too heavily because it might doom him to a similar fate as TSS. From memory, I think it was the fact that TSS started Day Two by saying "yeah, I knew he was town" that led to the scrutiny, rather than just the fact that he had executed RA. The town had spent a long time discussing whether the King should be instructed by the town rather than have a degree of autonomy and his "I knew he was town but you all seemed to think he was scum" defense never really sat well after all the debate. That was what brought about his demise, not having killed RA per se.

The fact is that RA did look very scummy in Day One and I don't think his execution would have been particularly questioned by anyone if not for TSS's actions the following day. Saying that Cb0x is town because he reminds you of someone who behaved pretty suspiciously in Kingmaker I doesn't sit very well with me as it gets us into cross-referencing WIFOM teritory.

What I am not saying is that Cb0x is definitely scum but what I am saying is that the fact that he looks a bit like RA doesn't mean that he's not. I am also a little concerned that our King might be deliberately playing down his suspicions for fear of being lynched like TSS was.

I have not read the first kingmaker.
I do not have cases against these people.
I do not know whether I will be building cases.
I play by gut.

Vote: Phoebus

- he definitely goes into my "not being very helpful" pile. MoS has become more vocal and now that he is posting his suspicions more conspicuously I am less adverse to his lack of voting. I still don't agree, but I think it's easier to work with than the other way around (ie. Phoebus).

Unvote: Mastermind of Sin

.

Keeping my vote on Bird for the time being.

[Mert]

it's amusing how even lack of doing anything can be filed under "being scummy" indicating doing something. paradox much?

care to call your vote omgus, mert?

i have nothing to add at this time.

Well, it isn't really. You could well be lurking because you're trying to slip under the radar and saying that you won't be posting any thoughts seems unhelpful at best. My vote stays.

Call it OMGUS if it makes you happy, I maintain that it's because you're not really helping the town at the moment.

[Mert]

Can you make another list, this time specifically of people who have gone to the effort of downgrading a vote to a FoS?

[Mert]

My original vote for Cb0x was random, of course, but when he went on to say that he had only voted "because he was told to" it struck me as a possible attempt to set up future doubt in people's minds about whether his voting pattern means as much as it does for other players, for example. I didn't like his reasoning in that post, but his "fine, lynch me" post is what really convinced me that my vote could stay there.

In the sort space of time I've been posting on this site, I've already seen this kind of approach twice before in completed games in which I have taken part and in both games the person that did it was scum. I sort of fell for it a little the first time, which sucked and so I'm far more suspicious of it now. But more than thinking it's a bona fide scumtell per se, I still look at people with greater scrutiny that I would do otherwise. I just hate the appeal to emotions bit, I guess as I think it's a cheap last resort.

As for Phoebus, he gets my vote for generally posting without any content. His Post 152 comments that he doesn't have cases against the people he had voted for, nor would he likely be. I similarly dislike this approach as it's not giving the town any information at all, really. Surely the posts you make and the things you say are just as likely to convince the town that you are on their side as they are to imply you are scum? The only reason, to my mind, to hide your thoughts from the town are because you are worried about the latter or not confident enough in the former.

I hope that answers you sufficiently, Glork, but if you need more info then give me a shout.

[Mert]

The vote on Bird is because he originally posted a couple of pseudo-random votes, retracted them saying they were "joke votes" and that he'd "gone too far" with them.

Pablito later asked him to explain in greater depth, to which he merely restated the fact that they were joke votes. Bird is the person who has irked me least of the three, but he hasn't really given me a reason to take my vote off either. He is lurking to quite a degree and an increase in posting might well change my opinion of him, but since all he's done is vote, tell people they were joke votes when pressed and then say again that they were jokes, I so no reason to unvote at this time.

[Mert]

There are a few people that I've been mulling over in my mind, but I'd like to answer that after I've done a re-read if that's okay? There are people that I'm thinking about but that is different to considering voting for them... will let you know as soon as I've re-read.

[Mert]

Not a problem, have no reason not to oblige.

[Mert]

But they're obviously intentional. How could anyone be that strange and natural?

So the obvious question is why are you acting strange intentionally?

[Mert]

Well I'm not voting for you so I assume that's a general point?

[Mert]

From the LoE that PJ posted, I would favour a Phoebus lynch. He really has been at best unhelpful and has not really responded well to criticism for this. The only slight problem is that his lynch won't give much information whatever his alignment due to the lack of substance to his posts.

After that, bird1111 is obviously next on my list. Again, not much content and strange voting toward the beginning. Not as behind his lynch as I would be Phoebus, but I would be happy with it either way.

Pab would go above CDB on my list of preference because of his weird posting throughout but I'm not sure he's scum so much as just acting a bit weird. I wouldn't be

un

happy with his execution at this point, but he'd definitley be behind the other two.

To answer Glork's earlier question, I must say that there's nobody else I'm going to vote for at this point in time. There are a couple of people I've made a note to look at in more depth tomorrow, but for today I'm going to keep things where they are.

[Mert]

I'm pretty sure I should

Vote: Twomz; Pooky

as I had voted them during the whole nut-kicking bit.

To re-state my stance on it all, I don't think MBL was scummy for suggesting it (as some seemed to indicate) but I do think the people that popped up and seemed to say "whoo, a wagon I can jump on" are far more suspicious, especially Pooky who has been notable by his absence for a large part of the game.

[Mert]

I've posted this in every game I'm in:

Sorry, I've completely lost touch of what's going on in all my games with all the trouble we've been having. I've set some time aside tomorrow to refresh my memory on everything and begin posting properly again. My apologies for the delay.

[Mert]

Mert, please go get caught up soon. And do your homework.

I'm more or less done with a re-read now so expect the homework by Friday at the latest (though hopefully tomorrow).

[Mert]

I'm here but work has been really busy lately and I feel I'm letting this game down by not being able to dedicate the necessary time to it. I'll try and get a hold on this game again this weekend but feel it may be better for the game itself if I ask for a replacement now, rather than when we get to 80 pages or something... I'll let you know how that re-read goes and then either post asking for replacement or with my take on the game so far.

Watch this space...