Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[chaotic_diablo]

Sadly, I don't think CTD is a good candidate. If we examine him, I don't think he will be very contributive when he's revived. Remember, after we revive our three candidates, the people in limbo can no longer vote. As a result, those who are 'living' will make the final decisions. I'm not confident that protown will be off to a good start with CTD alive this early(no offense). Not only that, but I'm only getting a neutral vibes with his nonissue postings.

I'm willing to consider Thoth though.

[Yosarian2]

It dosn't feel like we have a whole lot to go on at the moment. M4yhem, did you realize you were casting the last vote at the end of the day yesterday?

Well, if we're going to figure out who are scum and who are good guys, we're going to have to start leaving a voting record. I've still got a bit of a pro-town feeling about CD, like I said yesterday, and as that's the strongest hunch I've got at the moment I might as well back that up with a

vote:chaotic diablo

.

On another note, we still haven't heard from lordy and Mr. Cesar at all, and we've only heard from yellow once. I would suggest that we not revive anyone today untill all three either start posting or get replaced. After all, if we don't get a voting record on certain people before day 1, and they stay in limbo, we won't get a voting record from them after day 1 either.

[Mr. C├â┬®sar]

I don't want to be dead...please revive me

[lordy]

Sorry guys, I didn't sdee this game until i went hunting for it when I got prodded.

Right now:
-I think yos revival was good one. We need to get clear, sensible townies into the living world
-I'd

vote:al_kohaulec

-I'd stay off mayhem as he seems rather scummy, looking overeager to impress yet his ideas would fail.

[CrashTextDummie]

chaotic_diablo - I don't know where you get the idea that I will be non-contributive once I've been revived. Yes, I've pretty much avoided all the speculation about the set-up, but that's mainly because I haven't really decided on the best strategy, and because I think it can be dangerous to formulate elaborate gameplans already, considering that the mafia already had a chance to discuss things and most likely put a lot more thought into it than the average, independent townie.

I'm a bit wary of the people who are so willing to denounce M4yhem. I've played with him before, and his playstyle here is pretty consistent with what I've seen from him before (as a townie). Yes, some of his ideas have been bad, but I didn't get the impression that he tried to trick the town. It's more likely to me that his inexperience, coupled with a great deal of gusto towards this game has inspired him to share sub-optimal ideas in-thread.

[M4yhem]

Oh joy. I can see I’ve been making a good impression.

Anyway, what we need to do now is revive me.

Vote:M4yhem

What would we want to do that for, I hear you cry?

Simple. If Yosairian is scum, you need someone up there who will be skeptical of the things he says. Someone who will watch him like a hawk. I was the first player to express suspicion agaist him, and I’ve been the loudest and most vocal speaker against him. You need me up there for safetys sake.

If me and Yos are both town, the fact that we don’t trust each other means we will check each others arguments more carefully than two townies who agree would, which is good for the town because it means we’ll make fewer mistakes.

Other good reasons to vote me:
I’ve been trying harder than most of you to find scum. I’ve also been suggesting more ideas, although some of them were addmitidly not very good. I’ve shown you I’m unafraid to put forward ideas like massclaiming that are known to be unpopular; what would scum gain from doing that?

If you revive me I will do the following things for you:
Keep actively looking for scum.
Never vote for someone I believe to be scum, no matter how much pressure the other revived people put on me.
Listen to you and admit when I am wrong.
Keep putting forward ideas ans making accusation, no matter how hostile the reception.
Use my vote to revive people only when there is a majority consensus, which includes you all.

I am the best choice for today.

Tamuz- Please find whatever it was I said that makes your spikes bristle. I know I can explain if you show it to me, but I can’t defend myself about something if I don’t know what it was.
Anyway, I like your idea so I’ve stolen it and modified it slightly:

Today I would revive
M4yhem

Tomorrow I would support:
Tamuz- He’s skeptical of both me and Yos, which I think would be healthy for the town. Also showed up late to the party, which makes him less likely to be scum in my eyes.
Twito-Shares my suspicions of Yos.
TheManHimself- I thought it over and decided that it’s unlikely scum would be the first to roleclaim.


I am unlikely to vote for:
Al_Kohaulec- He seems to be agreeing with everyone’s ideas, but I don’t remember him suggesting any of his own. Says I’m human, but doesn’t want to revive me; I see this as a way of trying to keep in my good books while agreeing with majority opinion at the same time.
Chaotic_Diablo- Seems to be suggesting that patterns of behaviour are useless for finding scum. Wants to wait until we have evidence before looking for scum. I think that’s a seriously anti-town argument. We need to look for suspicious behaviour all the time, IMO, since our best defence is not to revive scum in the first place.

Your not relying on scumtells so don't go off-topic. Your just evading the main point.

I don't need to have a plan to explain how your plan is stupid. However, intimidation is a scumtell. Aside from that, don't expect that we will get anywhere

without

plausible evidence. Most lynches in mafia should not be backed with illogical arguments.

Your response is seemingly overaggressive.

Tamuz is on the top of my list for revival.

1)I am using scumtells to look for scum.
2)What was your main point again?
3)There are certain behaviours that will help scum get what they want. There are other behaviour which will make them more likely to lose. You don’t need to be a genius to work out the scum are more likely to do things that will help them win.
4)If you are going to critisise my plan, you need to suggest an alternative, otherwise you leave us with nothing, How does nothing help us catch scum?
5)Intimidation is not a scumtell. Townies are more likely to be aggressive in attacking people because they are eager to find scum. Scum want to avoid confrontation because it draws attention to them.
6)What plausible evidence do we have, at this stage of the game? Are you suggesting we wait until the first night? How does that help the town exactly?

It dosn't feel like we have a whole lot to go on at the moment. M4yhem, did you realize you were casting the last vote at the end of the day yesterday?

Yes, Yos.

Crash- Not trying to buddy up to me again, are you? You should know that won’t work twice. Thanks for sticking up for me nonetheless. And keep talking.

[Mr. C├â┬®sar]

vote Mr. Cesar

. I want to revive

[Yosarian2]

Cesar:there's nothing wrong with voting for yourself in this game, but it dosn't really advance the game, give us any information, or tell us anything about yourself. What do you think about other people? Other then you, and suggestions about who you think we should or shouldn't revive?

[al_kohaulec]

Mr. Cesar, you have two posts, and they both say "I want to be revived." I don't think you'll be revived like that today, read through the thread and post some thoughts on everybody as far as things like:

Do you think the Yos revival was good?
Who would/wouldn't you revive and why?
Who do you think might be scum?

And any other thoughts you might have, such as our methods so far mentioned for reviving players.

[Twito]

This game is moving too fast don't have time to read everything and make a post about it.

One thing I'm noticing is that some ppl try really hard to be revived and I find this kinda scummy coz in the current situation it's not necasserily advantageus to revive power roles and why would vanilla townie try so hard to be revived?
Right now scum are the ones who definitely want to be revived/want their buddies revived. For town it's not as important.

It's kinda interesting situation really.
On the other hand scum can try to get their buddies revived instead of themselves but then again townie shouldn't be too eagar to be the one revived.

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

[Yosarian2]

This game is moving too fast don't have time to read everything and make a post about it.

One thing I'm noticing is that some ppl try really hard to be revived and I find this kinda scummy coz in the current situation it's not necasserily advantageus to revive power roles and why would vanilla townie try so hard to be revived?
Right now scum are the ones who definitely want to be revived/want their buddies revived. For town it's not as important.

Huh? Why would town not trying to get revived? That's like saying in a normal game that someone is scummy because they don't want to be lynched. In a normal game, no one, townie, mafia, or power role, would ever want to be lynched, and I would expect everyone to fight as hard as possible to avoid it. In this game, everyone, townie, mafia, or unclaimed power role, would want to be revived, and I would expect everyone to try as hard as possible to be revived.

It's kinda interesting situation really.
On the other hand scum can try to get their buddies revived instead of themselves but then again townie shouldn't be too eagar to be the one revived.

And again, why would a townie not "be too eager" to get revived? Each time any good guy, including a townie, gets revived, the town is one step closer to winning.

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

Why? It sounds like discussing when the doc and/or cop should be revived won't do us any good, as we don't and shouldn't know who they are, and that discussion might make it easier for the scum to find the doc and the cop. Not a good idea.

[chaotic_diablo]

Chaotic_Diablo- Seems to be suggesting that patterns of behaviour are useless for finding scum. Wants to wait until we have evidence before looking for scum. I think that’s a seriously anti-town argument. We need to look for suspicious behaviour all the time, IMO, since our best defence is not to revive scum in the first place.

Patterns of behavior is the same as black and white. If the game was that easy to play, don't you think the game would be too predictable? You can't find scum just by looking at behavior. You have to find contradictions, faulty language, loopholes, and unexpected turns. If you state that Yos is scum for acting protown, what about the statement that someone else is scum for acting scum? Are you just stating that everyone is scum? You need to have points that support you claim, not WIFOM logic and speculation.
Also, don't misinterpret my use of the word "evidence" as cop claims and etc. It's merely a word to describe that you need something plausible to support your claims.

1)I am using scumtells to look for scum.
2)What was your main point again?
3)There are certain behaviours that will help scum get what they want. There are other behaviour which will make them more likely to lose. You don’t need to be a genius to work out the scum are more likely to do things that will help them win.
4)If you are going to critisise my plan, you need to suggest an alternative, otherwise you leave us with nothing, How does nothing help us catch scum?
5)Intimidation is not a scumtell. Townies are more likely to be aggressive in attacking people because they are eager to find scum. Scum want to avoid confrontation because it draws attention to them.
6)What plausible evidence do we have, at this stage of the game? Are you suggesting we wait until the first night? How does that help the town exactly?

1. Like what?
2. My main point is that your using WIFOM logic.
3. Yes, there are certain behaviors, but what makes you think that scum will be most likely to follow those behaviors? If those behaviors are obvious enough to be suspected, it's stupid to try them. A

good

scum isn't stupid, they don't follow the usual behavior and become predictable.
4. Like I said, I don't need a plan to explain how your plan is idiotic. If your plan consisted of jumping off a 2000ft cliff to get to the bottom, I can inform you of the problems. I don't need to provide an alternate one, I'm happy being

alive

than dead. If you want me you want me to make a plan, I can just push you off the cliff and call it a plan.
5. Again, using WIFOM logic. What if scum were to act like a townie and be aggressive? Are you going to ignore those people? Do you even know what a scumtell is?
6. Earlier, Tamuz actually made a good point on Yosarian compared to your argument. Tamuz stated that though Yosarian was helpful, it actually isn't helpful because it's all really just speculation and doesn't help us at all. You stated that Yos was scum because he was helpful. Tamuz's argument was more plausible because it revealed the deception under Yos's guise. Your argument was just a bunch of WIFOM logic backed with no reasoning. If Tamuz had stated that earlier, I would probably have reconsidered my vote for Yosarian.

chaotic_diablo - I don't know where you get the idea that I will be non-contributive once I've been revived. Yes, I've pretty much avoided all the speculation about the set-up, but that's mainly because I haven't really decided on the best strategy, and because I think it can be dangerous to formulate elaborate gameplans already, considering that the mafia already had a chance to discuss things and most likely put a lot more thought into it than the average, independent townie.

The logic I'm using is that if someone isn't helpful now, then how will he or she will be helpful later? Still, you make a good point. You haven't really posted much and it's hard to get a read on you. All I saw was a guy posting nonissue posts. I think I'll switch my stance.

[Yosarian2]

6. Earlier, Tamuz actually made a good point on Yosarian compared to your argument. Tamuz stated that though Yosarian was helpful, it actually isn't helpful because it's all really just speculation and doesn't help us at all. You stated that Yos was scum because he was helpful. Tamuz's argument was more plausible because it revealed the deception under Yos's guise. Your argument was just a bunch of WIFOM logic backed with no reasoning. If Tamuz had stated that earlier, I would probably have reconsidered my vote for Yosarian.

Do you actually think I haven't done anything helpful this game, that all I've done is "speculate"? I think if I haven't posted the way I did, we might have had more claims, which would have been bad. I also think that my point about "when is a good time to revive the roleblocker" was quite helpful in figuring out if we should revive themanhimself this early in the game, and I also shared my observations about the behavior of people like m4hem yesterday. I think I've been as helpfull as anyone else this game.

Tamuz never said that "everything I've done is just speculation and therefore not helpful at all". He said that I always speculate, which is not at all the same thing. I don't like the way you're putting words in his mouth. I also wonder if you're trying to distance yourself from me just because of this:

I am trusting C_D a bit, but because of how closely he seems to be attached to Yos, I'd be against it in case of the chance that they are both scum.

unvote:chaotic_diablo

[chaotic_diablo]

I had stated earlier that Tamuz was at the top of my list. Why? Because he gave my something to think about in my vote. I had that opinion before the al_ko's stated phrase. In a different light, mentioning it and responding aggressively seems more like your attempt to distance yourself from me.

Tamuz brings up a point that your theories and speculations are not as helpful as it seems. When I thought about it, the main reason you were chosen to be revived was because of m4yhem. Disregarding your arguments with him, the rest of your posts don't have as much 'oof'. However, even with that, I don't even know if I would have changed my vote. As I said, Tamuz just gave me something to reconsider, not convince me to change.

Point 6 is an example to argue against m4yhem. There isn't anything in there that suggests that all of those were of my opinion. Most of it was my

interpretation

. If you think that I had stated something wrong, then correct me.

[al_kohaulec]

Looking over Tamuz, I think he's looking like a fair revival target. Lordy sounded good from his last post, but that's about all we have from him.

Mr. Cesar I definitely wouldn't revive because of his lack of contribution, thoughts, and any help whatsoever to us. Cesar, regardless of alignment, isn't going to be helping us if he's revived.

Lordy may not help us also if he doesn't become more vocal, but he is a much better candidate than Cesar IMO.

[M4yhem]

One thing I'm noticing is that some ppl try really hard to be revived and I find this kinda scummy coz in the current situation it's not necasserily advantageus to revive power roles and why would vanilla townie try so hard to be revived?

I know my own alignment. I don’t know anyone else’s, although I can guess. I trust myself; I suspect the rest of you, although some are more suspicious than others. Now I need to revive townies to win. I could either take a gamble by voting for someone else, or I can vote for a (from my point of view) guaranteed townie. I agree that the scum will also be trying to be revived; but I wonder if they would be so blatant.

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

I see no harm in answering this question, but what do the rest of you think?

Patterns of behavior is the same as black and white.

Not even wrong.

You have to find contradictions, faulty language, loopholes, and unexpected turns.

These are some of the things I mean when I say behavior. Sorry if that was unclear.

If you state that Yos is scum for acting protown, what about the statement that someone else is scum for acting scum? Are you just stating that everyone is scum?

Scum act differently according to the skill level of the player. I read through a game where Yos was scum; he has leet scum skillz. Same goes for Crashy. I don’t know about the rest of you; if someone is acting obviously scummy, I’m not going to ignore it.
And yes, at the moment everyone is potential scum, although some are more scum than others.

Also, don't misinterpret my use of the word "evidence" as cop claims and etc. It's merely a word to describe that you need something plausible to support your claims.

What do you mean by ‘something plausible?’

1. Like what?
2. My main point is that your using WIFOM logic.
3. Yes, there are certain behaviors, but what makes you think that scum will be most likely to follow those behaviors? If those behaviors are obvious enough to be suspected, it's stupid to try them. A

good

scum isn't stupid, they don't follow the usual behavior and become predictable.
4. Like I said, I don't need a plan to explain how your plan is idiotic. If your plan consisted of jumping off a 2000ft cliff to get to the bottom, I can inform you of the problems. I don't need to provide an alternate one, I'm happy being

alive

than dead. If you want me you want me to make a plan, I can just push you off the cliff and call it a plan.
5. Again, using WIFOM logic. What if scum were to act like a townie and be aggressive? Are you going to ignore those people? Do you even know what a scumtell is?
6. Earlier, Tamuz actually made a good point on Yosarian compared to your argument. Tamuz stated that though Yosarian was helpful, it actually isn't helpful because it's all really just speculation and doesn't help us at all. You stated that Yos was scum because he was helpful. Tamuz's argument was more plausible because it revealed the deception under Yos's guise. Your argument was just a bunch of WIFOM logic backed with no reasoning. If Tamuz had stated that earlier, I would probably have reconsidered my vote for Yosarian.

1. All of them. If I see someone doing something which is a scumtell, I will say so.
2. Fine. I strongly disagree with your main point.
3. They follow these behaviors because

it helps them win.

3.a Not all scum are good scum.
4. Last I checked, this was a game and not a life-and-death situation. But if we must use weird metaphors, here’s a better one:

Imagine you are walking along next to a cliff when you see a little boy standing on the very edge.
‘Boy’ you say, ‘what are you doing?’
‘I need to get to the bottom of the cliff, so I’m going to jump’ he says.

‘Don’t be stupid’ you snap at him; ‘you don’t get to the bottom of cliffs by jumping! What a terrible idea!’

Then you walk off. Now, you may have saved that little boy’s life, but did you help him get to the bottom of the cliff?

5. If scum act aggressive, they get lots of attention focused on them. That is risky and lower their chances of winning.

6. Yes, Tamuz is clever, isn’t he? Well done Tamuz ;

Yos- Distancing yourself from Chaotic_Diablo, are you? Smart choice, that man.

We need more discussion before we agree to revive me. Here are some questions I’d like you all to answer, please. Yes, even the lurkers at the back.
a) Who do you think is scummiest right now?
b) What makes you think that?
c) Who, apart from yourself, is most likely to be town?
d) What reason do you have for thinking that?

[ChannelDelibird]

Vote Count:

M4yhem- 1 (M4yhem)
Mr. Cesar- 1 (Mr. Cesar)
al_kohaulec- 1 (lordy)

Not voting (9): Yosarian2, Tamuz, themanhimself, yellowbounder, Twito, chaotic_diablo, al_kohaulec, CrashTextDummie, Thoth

7 to revive.

[themanhimself]

*Mod: Can we get a prod on yellowbounder?*

I'd like to hear him say something.

[ChannelDelibird]

You may indeed. *prods yellowbounder*

[Yosarian2]

One thing to talk about is when it's advantageus for power roles to be revived. When is good time for Doc?, Cop?, RB?

I see no harm in answering this question, but what do the rest of you think?

Well, like I said, if we discuss about when docs or cops should be revived, cops or docs might give themselves away, as they'd probably have a different view on the subject, so I'd rather we not really discuss that unless we get a cop claim or a doc claim.

Of course, discussing when the roleblocker should be revived is a good idea, as he's already claimed.

[yellowbounder]

Random positive voting is now over.

Unvote: themanhimself

Chaotic_Diablo- What WIFOM? Seriously, I’m getting tired of that phrase.
Scum do act in certain predictable ways. That’s what the whole buissness of scumtells is about. They have goals they need to achieve and we know those goals, which means that we can make guesses as to how they will behave.

What’s the matter? Are you frightened that someone will notice that you fit the pattern I proposed?

Fos:Chaotic_Diablo

And what’s your alternative plan? Oh, I’m sorry, you didn’t make one, did you? NOT HELPFUL. What plausible evidence are you expecting anyway, in a game with no lynches and an unknown setup?

You expect scum to act in a certain predictable way. However, if we were to apply a WIFOM counter argument that works, your argument is WIFOM. For instance, if you can believe that scum will be predictable, we can also believe that scum will expect this and not play that game. Essentially, WIFOM is useless.

If I am right on the feeling of this post, you cannot find scum by finding people who act scummy, because the scum will know how not to act. (Of course in realising this, the scum will act like scum, and so therefore they won't ad inifinitum.) WIFOM is useless, but the feeling I'm getting is that scumtells are useless.

This is my impression on the above arugment on the validity of scum tells and WIFOM. WIFOM is a pointless arugment, but it doesn't invalidate scum tells, since (unless they are the perfect mafiascummer) all scum will give off scum tells, because they are part of the Informed Minority. This, in my opinion, is why masons give off scummy feelings, because they know something the majority don't.

Yos, seems a normal, well thought out townie, and of course people could call him scummy by being acting pro-town, but that's WIFOM isn't it? Just accept, that possibly sometimes they are pro-town, and not anti-town, acting pro-town. In mafia, most arugments will come under WIFOM, and working out what the scum are, and are not capable of is important.

And since I made a large post

Vote: yellowbounder

[Tamuz]

I wouldn't vote for
M4yhem
al_kohaulec
Yos 2
Mr. Cesar
yellowbounder

I could be conviced to vote for
CrashTextDummie
Thoth
Twito
themanhimself
lordy

I'd vote for:
Tamuz
chaotic_diablo

We need more discussion before we agree to revive me.

Note the fallacy here...

Just a remixing of my list. I've put the self-voters into my untrusted list because I believe that scum would be so eager. Obviously everyone would trust themself and vote for themself, it is just those who do it blindy without real support or reasoning who seem more desperate.

It may be the psychological effect of c_d looking beneficially towards him, but I think he would make a good counter-point to Yos and is likely as not scum if Yos is so he is who I'd consider a safe placement in order to get diversity alive.

[al_kohaulec]

M4yhem, I already answered those questions earlier, but I would like to see others answer it. Tamuz already pointed out the fallacy you made though. You are trying too hard to get yourself revived, and not looking enough at others IMO. You need to look more at who else could be worthy of being revived.

I don't think we should discuss when certain power roles should be revived because that can give away too much information to the scum.

And I was going to ask you, Tamuz, why you put C_D and Yos in seperate categories like you did, but you did explain yourself. And those are good points there. I'm not sure I want them both alive together in the beginning, but I might think about your reasoning some.

[Mr. C├â┬®sar]

Heh...sorry if I'm not participating as much as you guys would like me to but you guys don't know play like I'm used to play at other places. I don't know anyone here yet so I can't really "read" people and I normally don't write hundreds of words to find a reason to vote someone on D2, or in this case on Day 0.5

[Tamuz]

Then find reasons not to vote people and flip coins.

Thats one regret I have about not getting here earlier this game, otherwise I would have suggested we play it random, rolling dice which may have either,
A) Given us a good random base town, no chance of mafia planting
or
B) Flushed out impatient scum.