Jack of All Trades Mafia -- OVER!

[Mastermind of Sin]

I don't believe that BJ has put up a very good defense at all. All he's done is dismiss everything against him as if it was inconsequential. Nothing has

changed

, but all of a sudden people are "rethinking" their opinions of BJ. I find this highly suspect.

That's because your little "case" against me IS highly inconsequential. The fact that you don;t believe I have put up a good defense has no bearing on the actual truth of the matter - which is that nothing I have done is a scum indication. The fact that you are continuing to try and push my lynch rather then attempt to find scum is telling.

your voting pattern is highly suspect, and since you've done nothing to convince me that you had actual reasoning for those votes that would show a protown thought process, I'm still inclined to believe that your votes were based off of a scum agenda.

[BabyJesus]

your voting pattern is highly suspect

No, it isn't.

[spectrumvoid]

BJ: post 651.

Iba, either you or BJ could get killed tonight, so that discussion would never happen.

TheCesspit: What BJ defense? I haven't seen him put up a good one. So basically you're going to vote whoever isn't talking much at the moment? While it may be a good way of ferreting out lurkers, it isn't a good playstyle in the long run.

[ibaesha]

Nothing has changed, but all of a sudden people are "rethinking" their opinions of BJ. I find this highly suspect.

Just to clarify. You're not referring to me in this are you? I haven't necessarily changed my opinion of BJ. The points I brought up are still valid. However, I've also decided that Harry Potter is fairly equal in scumminess based on the points I've brought up against him. Note: He has yet to respond to those at all. I simply would like to have a night to talk to BJ and see what comes of it. I do realize that I should've made this attempt before, but that's a mistake I made and I can't turn back time to fix it.

Iba, either you or BJ could get killed tonight, so that discussion would never happen.

Actually we wouldn't die until after the discussion happened. And the possibility of death only means that whoever is left alive (unless we're both killed) would have have the conversation + the knowledge of the other's alignment to work with going into the next day. For example: If BJ died and came up town, I would know that whatever he told me the night before could be trusted. And if he came up scum, I would know that it couldn't. And the same is true in reverse if I die. The negative here, which I've thought about already is that if BJ is scum, he could use the conversation to help his position later. In addition, If we both die, our alignments are revealed and that also would shed light on things for the town. Right now, I believe that the positive possibilities are worth risking the negative one.

BJ: I do expect for us to talk tonight and for you to be responsive to me. If you are not, my vote may very well return to you tomorrow if we both live through the night.

[mathcam]

Vote: BabyJesus.

First, on a meta-game note:

The fact that you don;t believe I have put up a good defense has no bearing on the actual truth of the matter - which is that nothing I have done is a scum indication.

This is pure drivel.

You

don't get to decide whether or not anything you've done is scummy (let alone the question of whether or not you even

know

if you've done anything scummy or not), and even if you did, we would be under no obligation to believe you. The extent to which we believe your defense

is

the truth of the matter.

Now, on to the actual argument.

looks like my "mason" buddy isn't ebing very helpful....

The obvious attack here, which has already been made, is that it's extremely scummy of BJ to claim mason when he's not actually a mason. The (somewhat) valid defense is that the quotes around "mason" do indicate that he was acknolwedging that this was not a standard mason. Nonetheless, the "(somewhat)" is in the last sentence because it was nonetheless an intentionally-misleading remark, that relied on Ibby (or me, being the former Ibby) explaining the situation. Why not explain the situation in full? Or really, as a pro-town player, what's the advantage of being so opaque? And this brings me to ....

Why claim this at all? Especially given your later explanations that you know that neither you or Ibby know anything about each others roles...

Exactly how did you expect your buddy to be helpful?

.

If you understood that Ibby had no ties to you whatsoever (except for the ability to talk to you at night), then how could you expect her to be helpful? Since you knew she couldn't, why on earth would you imply that she could? There's just no way to reconcile this if you're a pro-town player.

Cam

[Fuldu]

Or, put a slightly different way...

Please bump where I ever said you should not vote for me because I am a mason.

If trying to get people to not vote for you wasn't the goal of the claim, then what purpose did claiming serve?

[TheCesspit]

your voting pattern is highly suspect

No, it isn't.

No content.

You see it's posts like that make me want to return my vote on BJ. Your voting pattern is poor, and there is a case to answer. Your dismissal of it as beneath you make you look unhelpful. Unhelpful players are scum, wether it says so in their role description or not.

My original vote on BabyJesus was about lack of content and vote hopping. This may well be standard play, but play I don't like. he's then go on to start posting and providing some info. While it's not the mostest helpfulish ever, Harry Potter's voting looks worse.

I'd say more pressure on BJ tomorrow is the correct play, while HP today is the lynch.

Your mileage may vary.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Harry_Potter (6): BabyJesus, armlx, MrBuddyLee, inHimshallibe, TheCesspit, ibaesha
BabyJesus (4): Mastermind of Sin, Harry_Potter, PookyTheMagicalBear, mathcam
inHimshallibe (2): the silent speaker, Yosarian2
mathcam (1): zu_Faul

Not Voting: Colonel Kurtz, Coron, Fuldu, Max, mystery meat of doom, spectrumvoid

10 to lynch.

[MrBuddyLee]

Not to divert from the BJ wagon, but rather to spur the kind of discussion we need to have in order to catch scum, I'd like to see everyone's thoughts on whether or not the following people have done anything pro-town yet in this game:

MBL
Harry Potter
Max
mmod
BJ
Pooky
Coron
Colonel Kurtz
zu_Faul

If calls for prods or replacements are appropriate, go for it.

There were also a lot of people accusing Spamwise of general badness, and I think everyone would benefit from people's analysis of Spamwise/mathcam's actions as well.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'll make comments about the people on MBL's list:

MBL: Interesting to see you ask for comments on

yourself

. Well, we certanly need to hear more from you, especally more concrete arguments against other people; you have made almost no actual attacks this game. I'll also mention that something about the phrase "not to divert from the BJ wagon, but..." just sounds suspicious to me. You've never even said anything about BJ, so why are you especally worried about whether or not we get diverted from the BJ wagon?

Harry Potter: Minimal contrabutions, combined with iffy, follower-y, scummy looking accusations.


Max:Severe lurker. Hasn't posted since Aug. 14. His attacks against blue yesterday make me think he's more likely pro-town then not, but he still needs to be prodded or possibly replaced.

mmod:Lurker. I know he mentioned he was going back to collage and wouldn't have a lot of time, but that was, what, 10 days ago? We need to hear something from him soon.

BJ: Eh. Now that he's posting more, I don't really have a bad feeling about him. I also don't really see how his day 1 voting record is especally scummy, although we might have a better idea once we find out the alignment of some other the other people he voted like Spamwise.

Pooky: Needs to post more.

Coron: Severe lurker. Has not posted since July. It's funny he voted someone early in the game for not posting enough content.

Colonel Kurtz: Lurker. Not many contrabutions. Did vote for blue.

zu_Faul: Needs to post much more content.

[BabyJesus]

mathcam's attempt to deflect the Harry Potter bandwagon is noted.

[Yosarian2]

mathcam's attempt to deflect the Harry Potter bandwagon is noted.

He did ask at least one good question, though. Why did you claim not only for yourself but also for ibaesha, especally when that claim was not going to clear you:?

[Fuldu]

Fine, BJ. I gave you two opportunities to answer my question and you've ducked it without comment both times.

vote: BabyJesus

[BabyJesus]

Fine, BJ. I gave you two opportunities to answer my question and you've ducked it without comment both times.

vote: BabyJesus

Looks like you caught me....

[BabyJesus]

mathcam's attempt to deflect the Harry Potter bandwagon is noted.

He did ask at least one good question, though. Why did you claim not only for yourself but also for ibaesha, especally when that claim was not going to clear you:?

I thought it was standard practice to claim if you were being run up....

[Yosarian2]

Fair enough. Why did you name your "mason partner", though? You could have claimed your role without saying who it was you could talk with.

That's really the only thing I don't get. Like I said, I don't really have a problem with your voting record, but if I were in your position, I might have claimed, but I wouldn't have let the scum, the room switchers, and whoever blew up my office know that ibaesha dosn't have a power role, unless she had wanted to claim herself.

[mystery meat of doom]

Well I've neglected this game. I'm going to reread and catch up.

[mathcam]

Fuldu: Sorry, I must have missed that. Though I do think we're putting emphasis in slightly different places. In any case...

He did ask at least one good question, though. Why did you claim not only for yourself but also for ibaesha, especally when that claim was not going to clear you:?

I thought it was standard practice to claim if you were being run up....

Oh please. This is crap and you know it. First of all, you're not the type of player to adopt and embrace standard practice -- this is fine, but you lose the crutch of "it's standard practice" to stand on when it doesn't go your way. Second of all, you know very well that roles and motives are split, so saying that you could communicate with Ibaesha isn't really even a role claim, just an unhelpful and misleading glimpse into the behind-the-scenes workings of the game. Third and most importantly, you're

still

avoiding the main issue I have against you: What "help" did you expect Ibaesha to provide you?

mathcam's attempt to deflect the Harry Potter bandwagon is noted.

Harry Potter hasn't really helped this game, but nor has he done anything particularly scummy (at least nothing that couldn't also be ascribed to newbiness or not being a good player). I'm trying to get people on a better bandwagon -- I'm only "deflecting" the Harry Potter bandwagon to the same extent that you're "deflecting" it by being extraordinarily scummy and causing people to vote for you instead of him. So

FOS: BJ

for that.

Cam

[TheCesspit]

Baby Jesus accusation only holds water if Harry is scum. In fact, that sort of comment is setting up an argument for a later claim that mathcam (or anyone else deflecting) is scum as well.

Pretty happy with either BJ or Harry Potter as the lynch now, as it provides information on a fair few people's motives.

[zu_Faul]

FOS: MeBuddyLee; Yosarian2

pointing your finger is easy. See, I can do this, too!

Unvote: mathcam

, but only because no lynch is bad and we're close to deadline.

It seems that BJ and HP are both very low risk lynches this game.

Vote: Baby Jesus

, because with Harry Potter it could rather be pure noobness.

[BabyJesus]

Fuldu: Sorry, I must have missed that. Though I do think we're putting emphasis in slightly different places. In any case...

He did ask at least one good question, though. Why did you claim not only for yourself but also for ibaesha, especally when that claim was not going to clear you:?

I thought it was standard practice to claim if you were being run up....

Oh please. This is crap and you know it. First of all, you're not the type of player to adopt and embrace standard practice -- this is fine, but you lose the crutch of "it's standard practice" to stand on when it doesn't go your way. Second of all, you know very well that roles and motives are split, so saying that you could communicate with Ibaesha isn't really even a role claim, just an unhelpful and misleading glimpse into the behind-the-scenes workings of the game. Third and most importantly, you're

still

avoiding the main issue I have against you: What "help" did you expect Ibaesha to provide you?

mathcam's attempt to deflect the Harry Potter bandwagon is noted.

Harry Potter hasn't really helped this game, but nor has he done anything particularly scummy (at least nothing that couldn't also be ascribed to newbiness or not being a good player). I'm trying to get people on a better bandwagon -- I'm only "deflecting" the Harry Potter bandwagon to the same extent that you're "deflecting" it by being extraordinarily scummy and causing people to vote for you instead of him. So

FOS: BJ

for that.

Cam

So - basically you don;t give a shit "why" I claimed and are going to vote me regardless.

It is clear to me that after Harry Potter comes up scum, the Mathcam problem needs to be dealt with.

[spectrumvoid]

Basically, I agree that BJ and HP are the most suspicious people today.

@Thecesspit: While putting votes on BJ have gotten him to talk, what he has said so far seems scummy. So yes, we're getting info, but we're also getting info that says he's scummy.

@Yos2: Don't just look at his voting record. Refer to everything he's said so far about masons.

mod

: Take a look at MBL's list 708. Could you please prod people and get them replaced?

vote: Babyjesus

I like the 'looks like you've caught me' remark. And what you've said about masons, claiming Iba's role and yours, not talking at night etc is scummy behavour.

[BabyJesus]

Basically, I agree that BJ and HP are the most suspicious people today.

@Thecesspit: While putting votes on BJ have gotten him to talk, what he has said so far seems scummy. So yes, we're getting info, but we're also getting info that says he's scummy.

@Yos2: Don't just look at his voting record. Refer to everything he's said so far about masons.

mod

: Take a look at MBL's list 708. Could you please prod people and get them replaced?

vote: Babyjesus

I like the 'looks like you've caught me' remark. And what you've said about masons, claiming Iba's role and yours, not talking at night etc is scummy behavour.

you're not very good at this, are you?

[Yaw]

I'm happy with the participation recently. Deadline off.

With the lurker situation, Max and Colonel Kurtz have already been replaced (by Loudmouth Lee and Uraj45, respectively). I'll check up on them about posting, but please do check the front post before making accusations about lurking.

I find it highly amusing that MrBuddyLee wants me to prod him in his own post.

Sorry, I missed Coron. He did get prodded the last time around, and for some reason I thought he'd posted. I'll either pester him to post, or replace him as soon as I get someone else on the replacement list.

[mathcam]

So - basically you don;t give a shit "why" I claimed and are going to vote me regardless.

This is laughable. How are those two things even related? I very much give a shit why you claimed, and am voting you "regardless" until then. This is why I, and others, have been asking you to explain yourself for the last dozen posts. And yes, until then, you have earned my vote. It would be senseless for me to wait for you to explain yourself until voting, because it is evident just how very long that could take. At this point, you've stalled so long that it would take a pretty miraculous explanation to earn an unvote, but nevertheless, I'm all ears.

Cam