Mini 370: Reverse Mafia - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Ah, that's where it is. Ok, thanks.

Hmmm...this is going to be tricky. If a scum gets ressurected, we won't be able to lynch him, right? Looking at the rules, it looks like we don't get to lynch people, although it does look like scum will be able to kill people. I assume there is some way the town can kill a scum that has been revived, probably a vig or some kind of vig-like pro-town, because one of the ways the town can win is "if all scum are dead", but we certanly won't be able to rely on there being a vig currently alive (and not in limbo or dead) at any point in the game.

All of our normal mafia stratagy needs to be rethought here. It seems to me that the most useful pro-town role might be a vig or whatever pro-town killing role(s) we have, if he (or they) are the only way we have to get rid of scum for good. Role-blocker is a close second, as he could at least lock down a scum and stop him from killing even if we can't kill him. On the other hand, if a cop can only look at living people to see if they're scum or not, but we can't get easily get rid of a living scum without a vig, a cop would be not nearly so useful as it usually is in a mafia game, although it'd still good to at least know who might be trying to manipulate the rest of us into revivinghis scumbuddy.

That being said, here's a thought; roleblocker seems like it will be a very useful role in this game, at least at certain points. (IE:if there's one living scum, and we have a pretty good idea who it is, being able to block that kill, even if just for a few days, could dramatically increase the town's chances of winning; not to mention the normal investigative-ish power a roleblocker generally has). However, if we bring back the roleblocker right away, especally now that he's claimed, he very well might just get nightkilled by the scum without being useful; if there is a doctor, the odds of him being alive whenver the scum first start killing is probably fairly small. On the other hand, we could leave him in limbo for now, where he can't be killed, and then bring him out into play when the situation is right (say, if we think there's only one scum currently alive and a cop has just pointed out who that scum is then could bring him into play and then he could right away roleblock the only scum, or when we have reaosn to believe there might be a pro-town doc alive stopping kills, or if the town seems to be in trouble and badly needs help right away; probably in some other situations as well). Sort of like in chess, where you should never bring out your queen in the opening game.

On the other hand, a roleblocker might be very useful when there's only a few people alive, if if he's lucky.

On the OTHER other hand, even if he does stop a scumkill on night 2 or perhaps night 3 (remember, no kills allowed on night 1, and even if there is a scum it sounds like there's a random factor about when he'll be allowed to start killing), he won't know it; if there's no kill, it might mean there are no scum, or there is a scum and he hasn't been allowed to started killing yet, or there might be a doctor, or the scum might just be messing with us. Even a sucessfull roleblock wouldn't give us information unless we have reason to believe that a kill is missing, and we won't have any way of knowing that until the scum manage to start killing.

I'm a bit confused by all of this myself honestly but I think we really need to do some serious stratigic thinking here, and I also REALLY think we need to make sure that no one else roleclaims until we figure out how we should do all of this.

[Yosarian2]

Addunendum: And of course, all of the above only works if themanhimself is who he says he is...and we have no way of testing his claim unless he is revived, after which point we probably wouldn't be able to kill him if he's lying. Yeah, I'm not really seeing how claims are going to help the town much at all this game, as there dosn't seem to be any way to test them until it's too late.

[CrashTextDummie]

Here's a thought:
There have to be some pro-town roles who can target the people in limbo. After all, the most straightforward way for the town to win is to not resurrect scum. There's not much we can do about a scum once he is alive (except if we have a living vig, which is a rather thin thread if you ask me), we can just keep him from killing, either by a doc or by a roleblocker.

Therefore, the question is:
Should we be more concerned about the scum in limbo (which would make investigation roles a priority), or about the living scum (which would make roleblocker/doc/vig/etc. the most valuable)?

Just some food for thought, I still don't think we should have anymore claims right now.

[M4yhem]

Chaotic_Diablo- Actually, the mod is saying 'I won't tell you' which is slightly different.

Crash- Good Choice. Also, do you believe claiming to be against the spirit of this game? What makes you think that? To answer your question, at the moment I am most concerned with the scum in limbo, for obvious reasons.

TheManHimself- I am not liking your claim. Roleblocker is a role often given to scum (although it looks like we can't take anything for granted in this game). Plus, something about you seems a little off. I will not be supporting your wagon at this time.

Yos- It's true that we won't be able to vote off scum, which makes the Vig a fairly useful role. The problem with vigs is that it's a role scum can easily fake, so we should be wary.

The most powerful roleblocker and doc in this game is probably the setup itself. As long as the scum are sleeping, they cannot hurt us. So I suggest that we scumhunt in the normal way, and then ban scummy people from ascendancy. At the moment I am slightly suspicious of Yos, for being supportive of the roleblocker and Vig, and subtly undermining the cop. Plus, he’s clearly smarter than me, which makes him very dangerous.

I agree that we should have no more claims for now, but I still think mass-claiming is a good idea. It forces the scum to decide quickly if they will claim a power role, which means they have to risk both that there will be no counterclaims and also that they can fake the role convincingly. IMO forcing scum to take risks is a good strategy.

[Yosarian2]

Therefore, the question is:
Should we be more concerned about the scum in limbo (which would make investigation roles a priority), or about the living scum (which would make roleblocker/doc/vig/etc. the most valuable)?

Except, it sounds like investigative roles probably won't be able to target people in limbo, as that line Chaotic pointed out said that you can only target "living players". If I'm reading that right, it would mean that a cop would only be able to target people we've already revived. Which, don't get me wrong, is useful information.

Chaotic_Diablo- Actually, the mod is saying 'I won't tell you' which is slightly different.

Crash- Good Choice. Smile Also, do you believe claiming to be against the spirit of this game? What makes you think that? To answer your question, at the moment I am most concerned with the scum in limbo, for obvious reasons.

TheManHimself- I am not liking your claim. Roleblocker is a role often given to scum (although it looks like we can't take anything for granted in this game). Plus, something about you seems a little off. I will not be supporting your wagon at this time.

The most powerful roleblocker and doc in this game is probably the setup itself. As long as the scum are sleeping, they cannot hurt us. So I suggest that we scumhunt in the normal way, and then ban scummy people from ascendancy. At the moment I am slightly suspicious of Yos, for being supportive of the roleblocker and Vig, and subtly undermining the cop. Plus, he’s clearly smarter than me, which makes him very dangerous.

I agree that we should have no more claims for now, but I still think mass-claiming is a good idea. It forces the scum to decide quickly if they will claim a power role, which means they have to risk both that there will be no counterclaims and also that they can fake the role convincingly. IMO forcing scum to take risks is a good strategy.

1. Of course, the best way to win would be to avoid bringing back scum alltogether. That's also the fastest way to win; we win if half of all pro-town players are alive, so assuming there are 2-3 scum, we if we can avoid reviving scum we'd be able to win once there are 5 good guys alive, which would happen on day 2. That being said, "scum-hunting the normal way" won't be as simple as you make it sound; for one thing, voting records are not going to be easy to use at all.

2. A mass-claim sounds like a very bad, very idea to me. I don't see how counterclaims will help us; after all, in this kind of set-up, there might be multiple vigs, or multiple docs, or multiple who knows what, so if two people claim vig, we can't just assume one of them is lying scum. Secondly, we have absolutly no way to test claims until one of the people who claimed has been brought to life, as people can't use their abilities in limbo, and by that time it's basically too late. And thirdly, if we have a mass claim, it'd be hella easy for the scum to slaughter all the power roles right away as we revive them. All in all, it sounds to me like every claim we get helps the scum much more then the town.

[ChannelDelibird]

Clarification, if you can call it that:

Any and all night choices are carried out by only the players who are alive, and they may only target other living players unless their role explicitly says that they may target limbo players as well, except that no killing will be allowed on Night 1.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, interesting. That does change things a bit.

[themanhimself]

TheManHimself-Something about you seems a little off

Please clarify.

I agree that we should have no more claims for now, but I still think mass-claiming is a good idea.

Mass-claiming is a horrible idea, if only for the reasons Yos explained. Individual claiming however should be useful for deciding who to revive. I know that I wouldn't vote for anyone without knowing that they can be of help to the town. Plus, it is (marginally) harder for scum to be revived without a good claim.

[Yosarian2]

Mass-claiming is a horrible idea, if only for the reasons Yos explained. Individual claiming however should be useful for deciding who to revive. I know that I wouldn't vote for anyone without knowing that they can be of help to the town. Plus, it is (marginally) harder for scum to be revived without a good claim.

The goal shouldn't be to revive all power-roles at the start of the game. Beside, it's be so much better if the scum don't know what the role of the people we revivie are. Remember, if there's only 1 doc, odds are he won't be alive yet when the scum start killing.

Also, if we expect people to claim before we revivie them, then we'll never revivie the doc, as we REALLY don't want the doc to claim.

BTW, did you want to respond to my thoughts about reviving you? Like I pointed out, if you're telling the truth you've only painted a huge bulls-eye on yourself, and it might be better if we keep you in reserve where you can't be killed until we need your ability, and thus not bring you out into the game right away.

[al_kohaulec]

Ok, I checked the rules on night targetting, but it seems CDB already covered that.

I actually agree with Yos on many points, although a cop is still very useful in telling us who

is

scum and who isn't (so we can know who to vig/not revive), I agree that having a vig could end up being more useful as he'd essentially be our lynch everyday, since we otherwise don't have one.

I'm a little suspicious of M4yhem for his rebuttal of Yos, but that's more of a matter of opinion for what he said, so I shouldn't hold that against him, but I wouldn't be leaning towards a M4yhem revival anytime soon.

TheMan I believe we shouldn't resurrect until later. One reason being, he could be scum, and we want to avoid resurrecting scum. It is suspicious that he claimed so openly and readily like that. Another reason is since he is claimed, there's a fair chance that his early revival could be more harmful to us in that he'd be killed off quickly. Also, like Yos said, we won't be able to know if his blocks are helping us stop scum or not, and since scum have to wait x amount of nights before killing, he might end up blocking protown roles first.

I will for now

Vote: Yos

He does seem pretty pro-town to me. I think I'd rather not go too far into whether I believe power/non-power roles should be revived early or not, some should, some shouldn't, and a lot of it depends on our current situation. I think the best revival choices are who we think is protown (obv), and somebody who we believe will be useful to us alive, and good at choosing more townies for revival, since at day 1, we'll have 3 players who can vote to revive.

[Thoth]

I agree with the previous poster. Yosarian's posts make the most sense to me sofar. I'd be willing to go for his revival.

Not so sure yet about the Roleblocker claim. Someone mentioned it being an ability scum often has. It happens sometimes, but in my experience it's still way more often a protown role. That aside I don't think there will be scum with special abilities in this game, unless they're relatively weak. A scum roleblocker would be extremely strong with only a few players alive. Much stronger than in a regular setting. Still doubting a protown roleblocker as well though. It's a role that I would not put in this game at all, so it makes it harder for me to believe it.

[Yosarian2]

I agree with the previous poster. Yosarian's posts make the most sense to me sofar. I'd be willing to go for his revival.

Not so sure yet about the Roleblocker claim. Someone mentioned it being an ability scum often has. It happens sometimes, but in my experience it's still way more often a protown role. That aside I don't think there will be scum with special abilities in this game, unless they're relatively weak. A scum roleblocker would be extremely strong with only a few players alive. Much stronger than in a regular setting. Still doubting a protown roleblocker as well though. It's a role that I would not put in this game at all, so it makes it harder for me to believe it.

Well, a scum roleblocker wouldn't a big deal unless there's more then 1 scum alive at once, assuming he can't kill and roleblock at the same time, so it probably wouldn't be too game-breaking in the early game.

[al_kohaulec]

I agree with the previous poster. Yosarian's posts make the most sense to me sofar. I'd be willing to go for his revival.

Not so sure yet about the Roleblocker claim. Someone mentioned it being an ability scum often has. It happens sometimes, but in my experience it's still way more often a protown role. That aside I don't think there will be scum with special abilities in this game, unless they're relatively weak. A scum roleblocker would be extremely strong with only a few players alive. Much stronger than in a regular setting. Still doubting a protown roleblocker as well though. It's a role that I would not put in this game at all, so it makes it harder for me to believe it.

In my experience I've actually seem roleblocker as mafia more often than town, and have come to trust RBs much much less. However for this game specifically, it would seem very powerful to have a scum RB, so I would assume he'd be town, if telling the truth. But this is metagaming.

[chaotic_diablo]

I've seen a scum Rb before. However, it had some limitations.

Mass claim is bad. With the

adjusted

rules, we don't know whether a powerrole will just die in limbo.

Yosarian seems like a good candidate to revive. Since the mod stated that you cannot target limbo players unless your role

explicitly

lets you, we can determine that Yosarian does not have a role like that by his reaction earlier.

unvote

vote Yosarian

[Thoth]

Well, a scum roleblocker wouldn't a big deal unless there's more then 1 scum alive at once, assuming he can't kill and roleblock at the same time, so it probably wouldn't be too game-breaking in the early game.

Good point, did not think about that as it's usually a nonissue, but in this game it's different.

[Twito]

*my sig*

[CrashTextDummie]

Unvote
Vote: Yosarian

He shall LIVE again!

[M4yhem]

Yos- Voting records will still be important. If we do revive scum then knowing who voted for them and knowing who subtly encouraged their ascension will be useful to us.
Also, no response at all to the fact I find you suspicious?
I accept your points about the mass claiming. Let’s drop that idea for now.
I would like to suggest that whoever is revived today has their opinions ignored tomorrow, to avoid a potential scum manipulating the town.

Themanhimself- Sorry, can’t clarify. It was just a feeling. If I had anything solid I’d be jumping all over you.

Yos- What exactly is the problem with trying to revive the power roles? Don’t forget the setup acts as a doc, as long as the scum are dead.

Al_kohaulec- It would help if you told me where exactly we disagree, for future reference. Also, remember that just because you agree with someone doesn’t mean they have the same role as you. Yossarian is a smooth talker, and more than capable of saying the right things to get himself elected.


Thoth- making sense does not equal town.

I am alarmed at the speed of the Yossarian bandwagon. I’m pretty sure not everyone has checked in yet. Let us wait until everyone has spoken at least once, please, before decided who to enervate.

unvote

And Crash- reasoning ftw.

[Thoth]

Thoth- making sense does not equal town.

I am alarmed at the speed of the Yossarian bandwagon. I’m pretty sure not everyone has checked in yet. Let us wait until everyone has spoken at least once, please, before decided who to enervate.

Both valid points. The second one is also the main reason I've not voted yet. I'm inclined to go with Yosarian at the moment, but there's no need to rush things this early.

Also agree that making sense does not equal town, but until we have something better to go on I'd prefer to go for someone that makes sense and helps the town with his posts.

[Yosarian2]

Yos- Voting records will still be important. If we do revive scum then knowing who voted for them and knowing who subtly encouraged their ascension will be useful to us.
Also, no response at all to the fact I find you suspicious?

(shrug) You said I was suspicious for "trying to sublty undermine the cop". I'm not even sure what that means in this case; it's not like I was trying to undermine a claimed cop or anything like that, i was just discussing the relitive value of different roles because it's different then it would be in a normal game. Anyway, that was when I thought no living player could target anyone in limbo, before the mod clarification; a cop who could investiage people still in limbo would of course be incredibly useful.

Yos- What exactly is the problem with trying to revive the power roles? Don’t forget the setup acts as a doc, as long as the scum are dead.

Well, the problem is that we can't revivie power roles unless they claim, and if they claim and there's no doc in play yet they're dead once the scum start killing.

I am alarmed at the speed of the Yossarian bandwagon. I’m pretty sure not everyone has checked in yet. Let us wait until everyone has spoken at least once, please, before decided who to enervate.

unvote

Yeah, I agree we need everyone has said something before we decide anything.

[al_kohaulec]

Crash, can you please explain any reasoning for your vote on reviving Yos?

You know that if Yos turns up scum I'm going to be looking at you pretty heavily.


I think I like the idea that M4yhem suggested where we don't necessarily listen to arguments of players who have already been revived, for these first few nights at least (until day starts). This does have a good chance of reviving a mafia player if we do this, but I'd rather have 1 mafia 2 town than a chance at 2+ mafia.

[Yosarian2]

Crash, can you please explain any reasoning for your vote on reviving Yos?

You know that if Yos turns up scum I'm going to be looking at you pretty heavily.


I think I like the idea that M4yhem suggested where we don't necessarily listen to arguments of players who have already been revived, for these first few nights at least (until day starts). This does have a good chance of reviving a mafia player if we do this, but I'd rather have 1 mafia 2 town than a chance at 2+ mafia.

(shrug) Well, you and m4yhem can listen to or ignore whatever arguments you want to, that's your perogitive. However, I want to hear from everyone and see votes from everyone every day, including the people we revivie. How else are we going to figure out if they are scum or not except by listening to their arguments, weighing them, seeing if they use crap logic or misrepresentations or other scum tells, and seeing who supports who?

I think the worst thing we could do would be give anyone who's been revived a licence to lurk.

[al_kohaulec]

Hmm.. I left a few things out, my bad.

We

should

still look at what they're saying, but not lean too heavily towards it. I just don't want to run the risk of reviving 2 scum because of one scum member convincing us to revive his buddy.

[Tamuz]

Christ.

Lot to read.

I'm about on post 35, catching up. Real post later I hope.

[Twito]

If we would have revived both the doc and the cop(incase we have those) the doc could have protected the cop and we would have gotten one investigation.
But coz of:

And and all night choices are carried out by only the players who are alive, and they may only target other living players, except that no killing will be allowed on Night 1.

it's useless to revive/reveal power roles this early.

I don't see how counterclaims will help us; after all, in this kind of set-up, there might be multiple vigs, or multiple docs, or multiple who knows what, so if two people claim vig, we can't just assume one of them is lying scum.

Then again if there are no multiple roles we could have everyone claiming and if there is for example only one doc claim we revive that person but 2 cop claims we don't revive either of those.

Also we don't have a counter claim for RB which would point out there not being multiple powerroles.

Yos2 posts good but then again it doesn't matter whether you are town or scum analyzing the setup is always gonna look the same.