[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Mehdi2277]

How well would a town core work? I've seen them before as one shot bp town core (with other prs to help them usually a doc) and that could be interesting.

1 1 shot bp Town core
1 doc
7 townies
1 mafia role cop
1 mafia goon

If town core is lynched or night killed successfully instant town loss.

I'm tempted to say ideal town core play is to hard claim immediately after losing the bp for doc protection forever.

As for the 10:3 night core set up I don't think it's town sided but that still sounds scum sided. While not mountainous one of town's problem in them is just locating one mafia where everyone is mostly vanilla.

[Mehdi2277]

Didn't realize until now I double posted that.

[implosion]

Daytalk + no NKs on scum + choose secretary at start would me my preference for that setup, and I'd personally think it's reasonably balanced 10:3 and scumsided 8:3. I might be wrong, though; it's often hard to know about balance until a setup is run, especially when it introduces a new mechanic.

I kind of like this, and giving scum daytalk is a good idea. It'd add another element of "would scum really bus the core? well maybe if they planned it ahead."

Not sure about the town core setup. A town core-like thing has been done before (although in a very different incarnation). There was a setup that was advertised as having one role that wasn't bulletproof which, if dead, automatically caused the mafia to win. Turned out it was a mole.

[Kdub]

Daytalk + no NKs on scum + choose secretary at start would me my preference for that setup, and I'd personally think it's reasonably balanced 10:3 and scumsided 8:3. I might be wrong, though; it's often hard to know about balance until a setup is run, especially when it introduces a new mechanic.

So you don't like the core swap idea? We could try it with or without it and see how things work out.

10 VTs still seems balanced I think? What are the win rates like for white flag? I'd guess that this would be fairly similar.

[callforjudgement]

The problem with core swaps, is that the first is effectively free, because it puts the town on evens, and the second gives an extra mislynch which is probably a crippling drawback for scum. So it's reasonably equivalent to being able to swap once, with no cost but the town being informed. And I think I prefer setups in which connections can be drawn and stay all game; also I prefer not to make setups more complex than necessary.

[Whiskers]

Mafia NOT nightkilling has been a huge problem for town in games I've been in where it has occured. You get, "did doc protect? did mafia NK? did JK block? did JK protect? Maybe there was no mafia and the mod is just fucking with us?!" or in this case, "did mafia switch the core?"
Also, when mafia has infinite swaps, you suddenly have to be able to find ALL of the mafia because if one player is starting to fail, you just switch the core that night and bus the partner for lots & lots of $towncred$.


Med's towncore looks bad to me because you get a follow-the core scenario-- well. kinda. You have a confirmed town and the doc protects forever while the mafia Dochunts. That's no fun imo. Also, core claims after she loses her bulletproof, but what do you do in the case of a CC? lynch between them and hope you're right? Doc one of them and hope you're right?

But, what about one where the town core

changes

every so often? Like, town can vote to re-roll the core X days, Or maybe it changes EVERY day and Mafia is told who the core is at the start of every day? That way they can't kill it, but have to try to lynch it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I've got one that has a little story behind it. During a bus ride down and back from a regional academic competition, a bunch of us gathered in the back of the bus and played mafia and drug dealer. While we were playing mafia, at some point, we came up with a new role: disgruntled postman. On an odd numbered night, as long as (s)he was alive, the postman would send a package. At the start of the next odd numbered day, the package would activate and kill whoever got it unless protected. The doctor could only protect one kill. After the package went off, then that next night, the postman could send in the next package. The postman was essentially a delayed odd-day serial killer. So lately, I've thought of how to rework that into a balanced game of mafia. And I've come up with this:

Special Delivery

2 town postmen

- At night, as long as your fellow postman is alive, the two of you may talk in private. One of you may also choose to visit one player. If that player has a package in their mailbox, that package will be deactivated and its recipient will not die that night.

1 Postmaster

- At night, you may choose one player. You will be told if that player is a postman or not, and if they are, who they last visited, but not when. If you are roleblocked, you will get a message that reads "No result." If both town postmen are dead, you may choose to investigate or attempt a save, but cannot do both.

7 townies

- You have no nighttime abilities. Sleep tight and keep an eye on your mail.

1 mafia roleblocker

- At night, you may choose one player and disable their nighttime ability. That means the Postmaster will not receive results and the town postmen will not remove any packages. If you are the last mafioso, you may choose to roleblock or send in the kill, but cannot do both.

2 mafia postmen

- At night, you may choose one player. That player will receive a lethal package that, if not disposed of that night, will go off and kill its recipient before the next day begins.

-Daystart

[drmyshotgun]

^Sounds pretty good. Would actually try that.

[callforjudgement]

Black Flag Nightless

• 7 Vanilla Townies
  
• 3 Mafia Goons (daytalk, no nightkill)
  
• Town win if the Mafia is reduced to 1 member
  
• Mafia win if the Town is reduced to 3 members

White Flag, but on both factions. And Nightless.

The most fundamental problem with mountainous games is that the scum NK becomes a very powerful weapon, usable to eliminate all the best town players. (In fact, increasing the number of VTs in a mountainous setup may well reduce town's win chance even if you allow for the odd/even thing.) The most obvious fix to this is to go nightless, but then the problem is positive feedback: killing scum gives town an extra mislynch. The above setup is my attempt to fix this problem as well; town have exactly 3 mislynches no matter what the order of deaths is. The White Flag mechanic on the scum is to avoid the normal demoralisation issues that mountainous games have, and to help prevent the game running on too long. Finally, this lets me put 3 scum (the ideal number) in a reasonably small playercount, thus catering for people like me who like games that are smaller but not shorter than average.

The EV/theoretical balance of the setup is identical to White Flag. In practice, the differences are that scum can't eliminate good town players (= more townsided), and that scum have more control over the lynch vote due to the smaller player lists (= more scumsided).

[IceGuy]

I like it.

[Empking]

Yeah, I like Black Flag Nightless. I'd like to see it run at any rate.

Regulation

2 Mafia Goons - Can either factionally vanillaise or kill each night.

1 Cop
4 Vanilla Townie

There are also two doctors to be distributed randomly amongst the non-Cops (inc. Goons).

[TheButtonmen]

I fully approve of Black Flag Nightless, what a great concept.

[gorckat]

Having drawn out a game as long as possible as the last poorly playing scumin TBM's Scumhunter Speed, Black Flag looks much better from the scum side.

I almost forgot to say something because I saw it before the game was finished.

[gorckat]

Yeah, I like Black Flag Nightless. I'd like to see it run at any rate.

Regulation

2 Mafia Goons - Can either factionally vanillaise or kill each night.

1 Cop
4 Vanilla Townie

There are also two doctors to be distributed randomly amongst the non-Cops (inc. Goons).

Cop claims and barring both goons as doc is covered. If both goons are docs, then cop dies and doc claims are busted.

[Faraday]

They can just vanillaise a claimed cop.

[gorckat]

I read that as 'go vanilla themselves' and avoid a guilty in exchange for giving up the kill.

[Faraday]

Just means it's a factional power not tied to either of them.

[Empking]

Just means it's a factional power not tied to either of them.

Yeah this is correct, my apologies for not being clearer.

[Whiskers]

Still, optimal play is for N1, mafia vanillaizes one of themselves, N2, the other one. Town wins with all VTs, a Cop, and maybe a doctor or two.

[gorckat]

If you can't beat'em, join'em.

[Staeg]

That's not how vanillizing works, though?

[Eddard Stark]

Uh...why would vanillising change alignment?

[callforjudgement]

Still, optimal play is for N1, mafia vanillaizes one of themselves, N2, the other one. Town wins with all VTs, a Cop, and maybe a doctor or two.

Vanillizing doesn't affect alignment or factional abilities.

Also, they wouldn't do that even if it worked, because the optimal play for a vanillized-and-town former-scum is to tell town who their buddies were.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Still, optimal play is for N1, mafia vanillaizes one of themselves, N2, the other one. Town wins with all VTs, a Cop, and maybe a doctor or two.

Vanillizing doesn't affect alignment or factional abilities.

Also, they wouldn't do that even if it worked, because the optimal play for a vanillized-and-town former-scum is to tell town who their buddies were.

Which is exactly why conversion roles are designed to fail if used on the mafia/main scum group.

As for my setup, looking at CFJ's Black Flag proposal post, I'm agreeing that, yeah, it is pretty much 3:10 mountainous. What if it was changed so that both of the town postmen had nighttalk and could send in a collective save? Kinda like 2 masons making a whole doctor. With that, the mafia postmen would choose on their own who sends in the kill.

BTW, I think Black Flag Nightless is a very interesting and good setup. Go propose it.

The new bit has been edited into the original proposal in Post 5131.

[quadz08]

Vanillizing a mafia member just makes them a mafia goon, it doesn't turn them town.