[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #5075 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:02 pm

Post by Whiskers »

In post 5074, LlamaFluff wrote:With the amount of wierdness in opens recently... maybe making Elmo's old Popcorn Mafia an open might be something to look at. For those who havent been around long enough to remember it was

8x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, No Lynching

Pregame scum votes to give townie a gun. They have X time to shoot. If shooter hits scum they shoot again. If shooter hits townie, the townie becomes new shooter. Timeout results in suicide and scum vote on new gunholder.

Basically classic nightless with a twist, but with site meta so different from original run im not sure how most would deal with just sitting around.

Uh-- there seems like no penalty to everybody just shooting the next person on the list.

A,
B, C, D,
E, F.

A shoots B. B is the new shooter. B shoots C. C now has the gun. C immediately shoots D. Now D gets a shot. D turns around and shoots E. Hey, E was mafia! D gets another chance, so shoots F.

Do town ever die from being shot, or do they just "become the new shooter"?
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Post Post #5076 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Post by Whiskers »

Also, is there a setup where town (or at least, some townies) can vote at night to influence the nightkill?
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Post Post #5077 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:09 pm

Post by quadz08 »

In post 5075, Whiskers wrote:
In post 5074, LlamaFluff wrote:With the amount of wierdness in opens recently... maybe making Elmo's old Popcorn Mafia an open might be something to look at. For those who havent been around long enough to remember it was

8x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, No Lynching

Pregame scum votes to give townie a gun. They have X time to shoot. If shooter hits scum they shoot again. If shooter hits townie, the townie becomes new shooter. Timeout results in suicide and scum vote on new gunholder.

Basically classic nightless with a twist, but with site meta so different from original run im not sure how most would deal with just sitting around.

Uh-- there seems like no penalty to everybody just shooting the next person on the list.

A,
B, C, D,
E, F.

A shoots B. B is the new shooter. B shoots C. C now has the gun. C immediately shoots D. Now D gets a shot. D turns around and shoots E. Hey, E was mafia! D gets another chance, so shoots F.

Do town ever die from being shot, or do they just "become the new shooter"?


Yeah, I was going to say, it seems impossible for Town to lose. >_>
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Post Post #5078 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:32 pm

Post by Whiskers »

Just throwing the idea out there for refinement:

Spoiler:
4 VT
2 mafia
2 nightvoting townies
8p in all.

there are two sets of four neighbours. One nightvoting townie is in each neighbourhood. Mafia are sent to neighbourhoods at random (both in one NH, or one in each). VTs fill the remaining slots.
So, possible outcomes are:
1: (NV, M, vt, vt) / (NV, M, vt, vt)
2: (NV, M, M, vt) / (NV, vt, vt, vt)

No roles are revealed by the mod.
Nightvoting townies can vote to change the lynch.
This version doesn't quite work. There's no way to let town
sometimes
overpower the mafia without
always
letting them overpower the mafia.

What if there is a Doc/Vig combo: Both players choose targets. If the Doc blocks correctly, the mafia's NK is redirected to the Vig's target. If either of them dies, the other is just a named townie.
2/7, and it ensures a nightkill is made each night (that the mafia chooses to make one).

Is this too weak/too similar to other setups?
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Post Post #5079 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:48 pm

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

In post 5075, Whiskers wrote:Do town ever die from being shot, or do they just "become the new shooter"?

Pretty sure they die after shooting since otherwise the set-up doesn't really make sense.
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Post Post #5080 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:08 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Yeah thats why I dont post running out the door...

Town A shoots Town B results in Town A dying and Town B becoming shooter
Town A shoots Scum B results in Scum B dying and Town A remaining shooter

Otherwise yes, obviously broken. Think in its first itteration town won D6/D7 or so, ive debated running it again in the somewhat near future. Meta shift over last two years may benifit scum though

Original game.

Its basically 8:4 nightless with a twist
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Post Post #5081 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:43 pm

Post by MichelSableheart »

@LlamaFluff: Suppose that town only shoots townies. Each time a townie is hit, the shooter dies, and the hit player becomes the new shooter. Eventually, there is 1 townie left against 4 mafia, with the townie being shooter. Townie shoots all mafia, town wins.

At the very least, you'll need to add a stopcondition, probably mafia wins if they equal town in number. But even then, things are more townsided then 8:4 nightless, because mafia don't influence who dies in any way.
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Post Post #5082 (ISO) » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:44 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Well obviously the "equal or outnumber" standard win condition for scum applies to stop it from being impossible for scum to win. Its probaby town sided to the point where I wouldnt aruge against it being a 7:4 setup, but I think 8:4 nightless works fine, which is similar to this except with a constant confirmed town kingmaker.
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Post Post #5083 (ISO) » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:46 am

Post by Mehdi2277 »

In post 5076, Whiskers wrote:Also, is there a setup where town (or at least, some townies) can vote at night to influence the nightkill?

This sounds a lot like reverse mafia to me idea wise. Basically town is the informed minority without a night kill and mafia is the uninformed majority. Each mafia member votes one person at night through pm to kill (player with the most votes is night killed). Day phases work the same.
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Post Post #5084 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:08 pm

Post by Timeater »

Super early draft of a
possible
cow-mafia.

Cow Mafia 20p. Haven't really thought about breaking strategies yet, just laying some foundations. Mulling over variables.

Spoiler:
16:4

Special Wincons:

The Bad Cows will win if they kill all the cows.

Other Stuff:

+Nightstart
+If a player dies, all his cows die.
+Normal mafia e.g factional nightkill/lynch still apply.
+Numbers are still pretty arbitrary they need to be looked at more closely

Regular Cows (7):
You have 2 cows. Your milk is vanilla-flavored. You have your vote. That is all you can Moo.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Sacrifical Cow (2):
You have 1 cow. Each night you may protect another cow and all of his cows from harm and theft. However if you do so, one of your cows will die.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Barking Cow (1):
You have 2 cows. During the day you can BARK. However, if you ever 'Moo', you will be moo-killed.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Economist Cow (1):
You have 3 cows. During the day you can send the Moo-d a PM stating how many cows you think are alive. If you guess correctly you magically gain an extra cow.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Thief Cow (1):
You have 1 cow. During the night you can target to steal from another cow. You will steal 1 of his cows. If you have at least 1 cow, you can use a Track ability (will tell you who your target targeted), but it'll cost you and one of your cows will die.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Banker Cow (1):
You have 0 cows. Twice in the game you may PM the Moo-d during the day. The Moo-d will then post in the thread "The Banker Cow is Accepting Cows!". The following night, players may PM the Moo-d with how many cows they want to give to the Banker Cow. Cows under the protection of the Banker Cow cannot be stolen, killed, and are cured of diseases.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Proud Cow (1):
You have 2 cows. For every bad cow you lynch (you have to be on the wagon) your cow count doubles. If you have 0 cows and you lynch a bad cow, you get 1.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Barter Cow (1):
You have 0 cows. During the day or twilight, you may target one cow during the night ask him to give his cows to another cow. The Moo-d will handle interactions. For example: BARTER TIMEATER-COW TO GIVE HIS COWS TO QUILFORD-COW. The cow can then AGREE or DISAGREE to the transaction.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


God Cow (1):
You have 0 cows. You dont need any because you're the god of cows. Your power is directly tied to how many cows are alive (you dont know the specific number). 20+ cows, every night you can see if a cow is good or bad. 15+ cows, you get to see how many cows someone owns. 10+ cows, you track a cow to see who he visits. 5+ cows, you can learn what was done to a cow at night but not who did it. 5 or less cows and you will kill yourself because you are sad.
Good Cow - You moo with the town.


Assassin Cow (1):
You have 0 cows. Sucks to be you. Because you are so jealous, during the night you can target a cow. All of his cows are killed.
Bad Cow - You moo with the mafia.


Diseased Cow (1)
: You have 3 cows. If your cows ever come into contact with another cow, that cow will be infected with Dead Cow Disease. Cows infected will pass on the disease to any cows (the process can repeat itself indefinitely) they come into contact with (defined by how many players a cow has). Cows will die 1 night after they've been infected. Once per night you can give 1 cow to someone (your cows only become infected once you hand em out).
Bad Cow - You moo with the mafia.


Maniacal Cow (1):
You have 0 cows. For every Regular Cow that is lynched, another Regular Cow has all his cows killed.
Bad Cow - You moo with the mafia.


Super Mean Cow Aldous Dilbert Humberdale (1):
You have 0 cows. During the night you may steal 1 cow from a target. At any time in the game (this ability can only be used once), depending on how many cows you have stolen, you can kill all of them to kill an equal number of cows that the town owns (victims decided/divided randomly).
Bad Cow - You moo with the mafia.
Last edited by Timeater on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #5085 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:04 pm

Post by drmyshotgun »

^Would play that.
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Post Post #5086 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:00 pm

Post by quadz08 »

That setup is going to be hilariously awesome. That is all.
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Post Post #5087 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:01 pm

Post by Faraday »

Too many unique town roles. Need to read the scum powers, only skimmed but it looks like it narrows the pool down considerably or you force scum to claim power and thus be in a narrow pool anyway.
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Post Post #5088 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:12 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Having too many unique roles is a common problem with Opens. In this case, it could probably be fixed by randomizing the exact number of each role somewhat. (If you want the possibility for perfect scum fakeclaims, also let them know how many there are of each role, but that generally powers up scum too much.)
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #5089 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:41 pm

Post by Timeater »

I do agree there are probably too many town roles. Its assumed the scum would generally claim vanilla barring lylo/endgame circumstances (also I think there are enough deterrents to stop people from just massclaiming or being loose with claims). And maybe too many cows floating around. Its just a fun trollish game and I wanted to make with alot of fun roles. I'm not quite sure how easy or hard the extra scum wincon would be at this point. But if they played properly (not killing people who you target for cow-killing) I think hitting it would be a possibility towards endgame.
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Post Post #5090 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:56 pm

Post by Whiskers »

Rather than randomize the numbers of each role, could we randomize which PRs and Bad Cow PRs there are? twenty players is a lot. What if you knocked to down to 14p, with six VTs and roll four town PRs (with chance for repetition=the number you listed above). Give Bad Cows 1 Vanilla Bad Cow and roll 3/4 of the scum PRs. Actually-- the Assassin Cow is equivalent to the scum factional kill, right? Make two Assassin Cows-- only one can kill each night-- and roll two scum PRs. It'd look like this:

6 Normal Cows
4 of [Sacrificial Cow, Sacrificial Cow, Barking Cow, Economist Cow, Thief Cow, Banker Cow,
Proud Cow, Barter Cow, and God Cow]
2 Assassin Cows
2 of [Diseased Cow, Maniacal Cow, and Super Mean Cow Aldous Dilbert Humberdale]

Still looks like a Theme Game, though. Anyway, this sets up for fakeclaims, when Bad Cows learn what PRs town has. The problem I'm having is that you're using Cow to mean both a player and a currency. For more swingyness, you could change it to be Cow=Player and Vote=Commodity, or to keep it the same, cow=Player and Milk=Commodity, but that doesn't make sense for killing. Maybe you could "spoil" the milk? Or change the whole flavour to cats and each of them has X "lives"
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Post Post #5091 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:05 pm

Post by Timeater »

Thanks for the feedback, Whiskers. 20p is pretty reasonable for a large theme imo. The assassin cow is in the game purely to help the scumteam reach their secondary wincon faster/disable town PRs. Its not considered the factional kill. And yes, I will probably (if I ever do it, its a long way off) organize roles like you have listed.

Nothing wrong with Open Theme Games :P Open games are the only kind of game I'm interested in running. Its kinda my schpiel.

The problem I'm having is that you're using Cow to mean both a player and a currency.


Yeah thats just a joke :P I'd probably change it...or would I...

Or change the whole flavour to cats and each of them has X "lives"


Silly pony, you're mooing the whole point. :roll:
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Post Post #5092 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:07 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Open Theme games are typically run in the Theme queues not the Open queues, right?

I agree that this is a good thread to discuss the setups in, anyway.
scum
· scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn ·
town
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Post Post #5093 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:10 pm

Post by Whiskers »

In post 5091, Timeater wrote:
Or change the whole flavour to cats and each of them has X "lives"


Silly pony, you're mooing the whole point. :roll:

YES BUT CATS ARE BETTER THAN ANY FISH OR MAMMAL.
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Post Post #5094 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:11 pm

Post by Timeater »

In post 5093, Whiskers wrote:
In post 5091, Timeater wrote:
Or change the whole flavour to cats and each of them has X "lives"


Silly pony, you're mooing the whole point. :roll:

YES BUT CATS ARE BETTER THAN ANY FISH OR MAMMAL.


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Open Theme games are typically run in the Theme queues not the Open queues, right?


right.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15494 for instance
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Post Post #5095 (ISO) » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:19 pm

Post by Whiskers »

Spoiler:
Image

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Post Post #5096 (ISO) » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:29 am

Post by quadz08 »

What if it was a Smallcown (Smallfarm?) game?
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Post Post #5097 (ISO) » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:27 am

Post by IceGuy »

This post was made possible by izakthegoomba for reminding me I should start discussing open setups again.

In post 5078, Whiskers wrote:Just throwing the idea out there for refinement:


I don't get how this is supposed to work. What lynches/kills happen, and who can vote on whom?

A similar idea (letting townies control NKs) was in an Execution Mafia, where the night executioner was selected in a secret vote by town and scum, with town getting one vote each and scum getting two votes each.

In post 5078, Whiskers wrote:
What if there is a Doc/Vig combo: Both players choose targets. If the Doc blocks correctly, the mafia's NK is redirected to the Vig's target. If either of them dies, the other is just a named townie.
2/7, and it ensures a nightkill is made each night (that the mafia chooses to make one).


I like that idea and I think that would be balanced.

In post 5080, LlamaFluff wrote:
Its basically 8:4 nightless with a twist


It'll probably be easy on town, considering the optimal strategy is always to shoot the most scummy person. Either you get rid of scum or you get a false target out of the way. I'm not sure 8:4 is balanced, but I think 7:4 would be scum-sided.
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Post Post #5098 (ISO) » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:57 am

Post by Cogito Ergo Sum »

Whereas in regular nightless you'd get someone non-scummy lynched? I'd argue you have more incentive to not get rid of the scummiest in Popcorn since they in turn get a kill if town.

(8:4 nightless is considered to be balanced by the bye.)

Re: Whiskers' doc/vig combo, seems simpler to just make it one role? That's a role I actually considered using at some point.
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Post Post #5099 (ISO) » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:11 am

Post by Hoopla »

In post 5098, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:(8:4 nightless is considered to be balanced by the bye.)


I don't agree.

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