Mini 365- Thinking Mafia - Game Over!

[Mert]

Random vote: Random Acts

- just seems to roll off the tongue...

[Mert]

Vote Mert

for having an avatar that frightens me a little.

Haha, I've been meaning to change it, actually. It just happened to be the first image I found on my hard drive that was correctly sized. One day I'll get around to Photoshopping something new and exciting, I promise.

[Mert]

Unvote: RandomActs
OMGUS Vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf

[Mert]

i only target you if youre scum

Would you target yourself if you were scum?

[Mert]

this question is irrelevant, because i'm not scum. but theoretically, if i were scum, i guess i would target myself.

Well that's me convinced! Welcome to the bottom of my LoS, haha.

[Mert]

Just to let you all know in advance:

I am moving house between Thursday and Monday this week. While I will still be able to get internet access sometimes at my old flat (I hope at least once every couple of days but preferably more) I wouldn't be surprised if it gives me less time to post as often or as lengthily as I would like.

I'll check in and read the this game as often as I can but if it becomes necessary to replace me then please feel free.

Thanks,

Mert

PS. Oh... and

unvote

.

[Mert]

Man, something just doesn't feel right about the mert and omg wagons... or not necessarily the wagons, but what just happened... I know there was a good reason for what both of them did, it just gives me a bad feeling (maybe it's the biscuits i ate this morning though...)

Oh well

unvote, vote: Mert

.

Would you be so kind as to explain the logic behind voting for me for bandwagon-related crimes and yet are happy to place a third vote on me yourself? Unless it really was just the biscuits, of course...

[Mert]

The more sporatic my actions, the higher the chance of me randomly hitting mafia... really though, I know why you and RA unvoted Omg, you both did it for good reasons i suppose... but the timing of it just feels wrong, so I voted for you. *shrug*

Haha, fair enough. Thanks for the quick response.

[Mert]

the thing that makes me think its less likely mert is his willingness to get replaced in the game, that tells me he is likely just a villager that doesnt care much

Eh? Would you rather I'd not told anyone about having limited access for a bit and just looked like a lurker?

Understand that I don't

want

to get replaced, but I'd rather that than disrupt the game, so

if it becomes necessary

to replace me then I am fine with it.

Anyway, did you not think that posting "zomg kill mert today please, seriously, anyone not on mert needs to die next" with no reasons why would look a little... odd?

[Mert]

my reason for voting mert was that he seemed actively overfriendly, like he was trying to fit in way too hard

No it wasn't, you voted for me in Post 12, where all I'd done so far was random vote for RandomActs. It wasn't until Post 16 where you went all crazy with your "anyone not on Mert needs to die next" stuff. That is all I can find that might be a reaction to "over-friendliness" but it certainly wasn't why you voted for me as you had already done so by that point.

sorry to all i really should have checked and seen this was a 'only lynch when you get to 7' game.

Well I do find that reading the rules generally helps, haha. That said, this is minor contradiction #2 on your part, as your vote was only the second one on me. Your

vote

didn't so much look suspicious as your pleas for people to lynch me quickly. I don't think anyone would have gone into too much detail this early on based only on a second had you not followed up with the "zomg kill him now" stuff.

odd? maybe

mafia-like? definitely not. why would a mafia bring that much attention to themselves?

That post is practically dripping with WIFOM...

and im just pointing out that if you had been mafia, i find it less likely that you would want to draw attention to yourself by saying that you were leaving and could need a replacement... i think you would also be more enthusiastic about staying in the game as a mafioso.

Please, please understand that it is not a lack of enthusiasm that is causing me to have limited access, it's the fact that I'm moving into a house where internet connections etc won't have been set up immediately. There's also the whole "packing up and moving my stuff" issue that, frankly, is going to take up a lot of my time. I'm not unenthusiastic, I'm just going to be dropping in and out for a few days... I only want to be replaced if it becomes necessary for the game to progress. Even if I was scum, that wouldn't stop me from moving house and having restricted access...

Good point...I would tend to agree with that statement.

I don't personally see why someone saying "I'm going to be out of the loop for a few days" is any more or less scummy than anything else. I don't get it, are we

really

saying that not posting your whereabouts when you have limited access is a textbook scumtell?

I mean, I'm glad you guys think I'm town and all, but I'm not going to hold my hands up and say that my moving house is indicative of it...

I would think that Pink Princess would have more to say at this point...I have noticed that she has not posted much (Of course, she is "fighting the flu")

Sorry, but the inverted commas around the flu comment imply you think it's a slight fabrication on her part... was that your intention?

Elais, your defense of Pink Princess is noted....I'm not sure why you would defende her by saying that "she's sick" when in the previous post I already stated it?...I don't know, but your post rubs me the wrong way.

Erm... I think maybe he said it because you implied she wasn't really sick and that it was scummy of her to be pretending such. Just throwing that out there for you.

FOS: Arafax

You just seem to be trying a bit

too

hard to look like you're actively scumhunting. Nothing wrong with trying hard in principle but from you it seems disingenuous.

[Mert]

Ummm, okay...In her post# 33 she said that she had the flu, so I said that she had the flu...I'm really confused on how you thought that I was saying that she wasn't sick....I hope that helps you out.

Spot the difference between these sentences:

- Arafax has an investigation result.
- Arafax has an "investigation" result.

You see how the inverted commas changed the meaning there? The first is just a plain, old, factual sentence whereas the other implies that it wasn't really an investigation and that I think you're lying.

You did the same when you said PP "has the flu". Made it read like you were saying it was not your true meaning...

Hope that clarifies things for you.

[Mert]

I'm not going to argue the semantics of English grammar with you, just know that the way you wrote your post was open to misinterpretation and it's something both PP and I independently picked up on. This, of course, wasn't overly helped by the fact that you followed it up by saying it made you suspicious.

Anyway, I didn't FOS you for your ambiguous grammar, I FOSed you for appearing to try too hard to find reasons to suspect people. What response, if any, do you have to that?

[Mert]

I will certainly respond, but first please explain what you mean by "trying too hard to find scum?"

Well there are a few occasions (notably posts 24, 49, 54 and 69) have seemed like a bit of a stretch, often suspecting or voting for someone on fairly weak reasoning. Whether we're totally out of the random voting phase is open to debate but your posts have given the impression of being non-random (other than your random Twomz vote, natch).

If you knew who the town was it might be more difficult to come up with concrete reasons to move your vote around to them as, deep down, you'd know they weren't really suspicious. It's a vibe I get from your posts and it looks like you're

searching

for reasons to suspect someone.

[Mert]

you had to point out that it was random (not wanting to draw attention), and then tried to leave a little joke in there as well.... it just feels off to me. i came in and saw this as the most suspicious post so voted for you.

Fair play to you but it's hardly uncommon for people to label their random votes as such and it's not unheard of to put a stupid reason as to why (see also: Colonel Kurtz's "I hate pink" comment).

this drips with mafia imo. someone votes

for you and you start of with a laugh, then keep the whole tone of the post positive, finishing with a promise that you are going to do something for the person that voted for you (lowell). no talk of a revenge vote, no attack or analysis whatsoever, avoiding me who was also voting for you.

Erm, I was relatively confident that it was only a random vote. Forgive me for not being that worried about it but it's not like he'd put up a 500 word analysis for me to argue against, is it?

"minor contradiction" ??? what? nice way to throw that buzzword in when it has absolutely no relevance.

Well you said sorry for not having checked the way the game was played and that you should have been more careful with your vote. The thing was, your vote was only the second on me and so it really wasn't that big a deal. What you were accused of was trying to get a Mertwagon going to give a quick lynch in Day One, something which only benefits scum.

i thought we were playing a game where the person with the most votes would be lynched after 24 hours. as such i tried to lead a lynching on the person i found most suspicious (you)... so a complete random didnt get lynched day 1. thats just how i roll

Fair enough, but in a game that's not time-bound (at least not initially) it does look a little scummy to go after someone so quickly. As I said, a quick Day One benefits nobody but the Mafia.

i dont know what WIFOM means so i cant address your third point, but we both know that whether or not i pointed it out, what i said there made sense. a mafia is so much less likely to lead a lynching like that.

I notice you also questioned "FOS" earlier. Why not take a look at the
Commonly Used Abbreviations Page in the MafiaScum Wiki?

[Mert]

Yes, to be fair to OMG he was not the one who random voted me for having a scary avatar - that was Lowell.

He did hop on the bandwagon though after I responded to Lowell's "scary avatar" post and has been a bit strange the whole game, really. I still think some of the things he has said have been fairly scummy (the WIFOM post is certainly the strangest, but could just be newbishness) but his reason for voting me wasn't that I had a scary avatar but that I was "too friendly" (presumably in my vote on RA).

I still don't fully understand why, even in a timed game, I looked the most like scum at the point in which he voted for me, so if he could expand on his reasoning it'd be much appreciated.

With regard to CES's bandwagon hopping, I don't think it's particularly indicative of scumminess just yet. When I first read a few games I thought random voting achieved nothing as everyone knows it's a random vote and so it doesn't draw any useful reactions. Then I realised that it's not the random votes themselves but the bandwagon votes that follow that truly begin to give you a picture of what's going on.

Having said that, I do want CES to post some analysis or comment at some point as I think it'd be a pretty bad idea to go into Night One without having anything substancial from him to refer to.

Arafax's response to my post about him trying hard didn't sit terribly well with me... just because it's the early part of the game and there's not much danger of a lynching yet doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better for us to have a full explanation of why you're moving your vote from x to y. Some of your logic when saying you find someone suspicious or when voting for them has seemed odd or incomplete to me.

[Mert]

2. His only post that wasn't a random vote (#85) screams scumminess to me.

I'm not saying his post is not scummy necessarily, but what is it that

makes

it scream of scumminess to you?

[Mert]

Cool, thanks for that, Arafax. I'd say I'll have a look through his posts and give my own evaluation but... well, there's not very much to go on is there?

Lowell, what do you think of Arafax's allegations?

[Mert]

good points arafax. in addition to them, i'm willing to move to lynch becuase he's making the game stagnant, by only posting twice. FOS on omg, but for now

unvote, vote: lowell

I don't think his absence makes the game stagnant at all. In this still early stage of the game there is plenty to be got from people with a little bit of probing. I can only think of one group that would be willing to move to

lynch

this early. I, for one, would rather he were given the opportunity to talk more and give fuller posts before we try to lynch him. This bandwagon on Lowell (

four

votes for lurking?!) doesn't sit well with me at the moment. He may well be scum but I don’t know how any of you can really say he is when he hasn’t posted anything. If your votes are an attempt to get him to talk then fine but the game doesn’t rest on whether or not he posts as there are ten other people you could be looking into as well.

Vote: Elias_the_thief

I don’t think anyone should be willing to go into Night One without having at least a few

substantial

posts from everyone otherwise we’ll have no record to base our investigations on the following day and that is going to be bad for the town as a whole. Your willingness to just accept Arafax’s points without adding anything of your own and then going on to say you’re “willing to move to lynch” just seems a bit strange.

[Mert]

Unvote

pending contribution.

I think that the four votes turned out to be the perfect amount of pressure to get some participation - apparently it worked. I don't know if I would have necessarily put the

fourth

vote on, but if it caused Lowell to rejoin us, I'm content.

Indeed, four votes does appear to have done the trick in this instance but

FOS: Bloojay

for putting on the fourth vote even though it immediately followed a vote count. I'd be very wary of putting anyone at Lynch-

n

(where n is a likely minimum amount of scum in the game) so early in Day One.

[Mert]

bad coin: omg pending !VC

could someone fill me in on what the above means?

I think he’s saying that he thinks you’re scummy but isn’t going to put a vote on you yet because he’s waiting for a vote count first. I could be wrong but it’s how I interpreted it.

and what does FOS mean?

Finger of Suspicion. It means they suspect you but, for whatever reason, are not going to vote for you at this time.

and whats the villager discussion about?

i call... good guys = villagers, bad guys = mafioso/mafia

Well it’s not often the way townies are referred to on this site. You say it enough for it to just as likely be your own playstyle as anything else, though I think the suspicion has arisen from Lowell also using the term. For a generally-unused way of describing a role to appear in two players independently of one another in the same game is a bit of a coincidence and so people are examining the pair of you for that reason. I’m not sure it’s worth a vote in itself but it’s encouraging for the town that people are starting to consider links between players.

Then I'm scummy too...I have no patience and I wanna lynch someone...Sorry, but again, I have no patience.

can we kill someone?

FOS: {Arafax, Rosso Carne}.

Come on guys, we don’t need a lynch just yet. A mislynch wouldn’t be disastrous, true, but we might as well get some information first.

[Mert]

Wow, that

is

a wagon!

Not sure what there is to respond to really. Rosso’s point about blatant quicklynches finding scum is valid only to a point. Yes, there’s a very good chance you’ll find one (maybe two) scum but there’d be precious little discussion to help connect those scum to their buddies. I see his point but his logic doesn’t follow through to how the remainder of the game would play out.

I am still of the opinion that discussion in the day is good for the town as a whole but I think this wagon will prove useful as I’m pretty sure there’s scum on it somewhere. I’ll have a look through the other wagons that have happened and look for patterns and repeat offenders.

As for Kurtz’s point about me trying too hard to be in the spotlight… well, I’d rather be in the spotlight for trying to get people to

talk

and take things sensibly rather than going “whoo yeah, speedlynch, rock and roll!” like Arafax is doing. I think there has been a lot of pretty weak reasoning in this game (not all of it, but there has been some) and I’m just no eager to lynch someone based on only a few comments and craplogic. I’ll have a re-read and post a list of suspicions as soon as I get the chance (might be a couple of days… see my sig).

[Mert]

Can we get some of the people that haven't posted in a while to post more?

I've had no access to an internet connection all weekend (I'm posting this from my mobile phone) but I'll try and get online tonight or tomorrow morning and post my comments on recent events. Please don't hammah me until I've had the chance to do so!

[Mert]

[quoteHow="Twomz"]how much does that cost?[/quote]Surprisingly little actually. I have a contract where I get free WAP time each month but I never use it so the minutes roll over each time and I have stacks saved up. Probably costs a bomb if you're not on the same deal as me though...

[Mert]

Meh, no idea what went on with those tags. Still, just over twelve hours since I can get on a computer and post some actual

content

at last.

[Mert]

Post 25 – Arafax saying he’s suspicious of Elias for “being a noob and jumping on the wagon” after Elias voted for OMG and his “zomg kill Mert” post. OMG looking like he’s desperate for a super quick lynch is more suspicious than Elias voting for him as a result?

Post 43 – Twomz’ post saying “something… doesn’t feel right about the mert and omg wagons”. States that he knows there was a good reason for unvoting on the OMG wagon but still votes for me.

Post 45 – When asked for reasoning behind the vote, Twomz initially jokes saying that sporadic actions help him find scum. He then admits that the unvote was for a good reason but then can’t give concrete reasoning for it other than it “just feels wrong”.

Post 47 – Arafax’s fuzzy, unexplained logic – “kind of get a feel for who is hopping on the wagon and who is really wanting to lynch someone… call it a hunch”.

Post 48 – Elias wrongly attributes “avatar that scares me” post to OMG and keeps his vote on him.

Post 50 – Arafax’s suspicion of Pink Princess for having the flu.

Post 52 – OMG’s first assertion that he thought it was a timed game, explaining his bloodthirsty “zomg kill mert” post. Changes vote to Elias saying that he’s buddying up to me. Says I’m likely not scum due to my “willingness to get replaced”.

Post 54 – OMG saying I can’t be mafia because I wouldn’t draw attention to myself by saying I’ll have limited access if I was.

Post 55 – Arafax saying he agrees with the statement in Post 54 and notes Elias’ defense of PP.

Post 67 – Arafax dodging the issue posed to him by me. I said he looked like he was trying too hard and he stalled by asking me to clarify what this meant.

Post 68 – Elias votes Kurtz for lurking after saying in Post 57 that he’s been “steady on his decisions”.

Post 70 – Interesting. PP had just come back in Post 69 and says she agrees with others that his post looked like he was accusing her of lying about being sick. The next post on is her then putting on his “first serious vote” for her not posting much content.

Post 79 – Twomz saying he moves his vote around a lot to catch scum that follow his vote and then says it wasn’t random it was on “gut feeling”, again giving no real evidence.

Post 86 – Lowell suspicious of lurkers while accepting that he is a lurker?

Post 96 – OMG over defending and using the “timed game” excuse again.

Post 98 – Bloojay calls OMG on saying I have a scary avatar, again mis-attributing that comment. This had been cleared up by OMG a few posts earlier and by others along the way, including Lowell. Asks for a claim on the back of this mis-representation of the facts.

Post 104 – Bloojay once again attacks OMG on the “scary avatar” issue, despite it being clarified again that it was Lowell who made that comment.

Post 127 – OMG votes Arafax with no explanation whatsoever.

Post 129 – PP asks OMG why he voted for Arafax.

Post 136 – OMG says it’s because Post 125 sounds fake but gives no further information. He expands on this in Post 138 saying that he basically “goes on feel”.

Post 173 – RC saying he wants to kill someone.

Post 175 – Arafax saying he’s impatient and wants to kill someone.

Post 181 – RC starts the wagon against me.

Post 183 – Twomz just saying he agrees, no further explanation.

Post 184 – Arafax votes for me saying “I just want a wagon”.

Post 185 – Kurtz votes for me saying I’m trying too hard to be in the spotlight without being a leader.

Post 188 – CES adds the fifth vote to the wagon.

Post 189 – Twomz says we’re at lynch -2 so nobody else should vote.

Post 192 – RC “Mert is scum”.

Post 194 – Arafax is surprised I didn’t claim. Why?

Post 209 – RC oversimplifying the likelihood of finding scum from quicklynches.

Posts 210 and 211 – RC really pushing for a lynch.

Post 215 – Twomz saying he doubts scum would be stupid enough to quicklynch anyone, debunking RC’s “it’ll find scum” reason for the wagon.

Post 222 – RC says that the last two to jump on and quicklynch would be doing so “on no evidence”. Later goes on to say I’m scum and yet has stated earlier that there is no evidence.

Post 224 – Arafax asking why we’re waiting as I’m not going to claim despite me having posted earlier that (RL) day to say I had no real access (phone limites me to a maximum of 400 characters, meaning all I really could do was “post crap”).

So, my list of suspicion based on the reread I’ve done today:

Arafax
Twomz
Lowell
Rosso Carne
Elias_the_thief
omg_im_innocent_wtf
bloojay
Cogito Ergo Sum
RandomActs
Colonel Kurtz
Pink Princess

Unvote, vote – Arafax

To address Arafax’s insistence that I should claim, does anybody else think this? He has asked twice why I haven’t and this is simply because I don’t feel like I need to yet. I will claim if enough people think I should, but I’m not going to just because Arafax has decided I should have done.

[Mert]

Maybe I should have been a bit clearer... you aren't in a position to kill me since you're already voting for me. Sure, you can drum up support for my lynch but I'd like to hear from the people not currently on the wagon as well as yourself. I will claim if there is sufficient support for my doing so, but you and Arafax being the only ones doesn't persuade me.

[Mert]

Heh, sorry... new to the site and all that. The only game I've read with you in it was Kingmaker.

So yeah, my bad.

[Mert]

I kept my vote there because when he was close to a lynch he doesn't say anything...He puts out all of these I'm going to post later and some zero content posts...With that in mind, he is one of two things: scum or a vanilla...If you have a serious role, you claim when you're close to a lynch, simple as that....If you don't, you're not a very good player IMO...IMO, I'm willing to take the chance that he's a vanilla (though there's a pretty decent chance he's scum) and lynch him.

That's some pretty faulty logic in my opinion... firstly, I have stated in my sig that I have very limited access on weekends and later went to the trouble of checking in from my cellphone to let you know I’ll post very soon but could not do so then. I wasn’t about to write a full claim when limited to a maximum of 400 characters. I feel that I’ve been very clear on this point and your refusal to acknowledge it is very telling and has been noted.

With regard to the claim, I would say that revealing my role, power or otherwise, prematurely is worse play than holding on to it until you are genuinely close to a lynch. At five votes there is pressure but I don’t see much indication of others champing at the bit to jump on, which is why I asked what the people

not

voting for me thought.

Since a few of them have now said their piece however, I will claim *sigh*.

I’m a cop. I began to breadcrumb it here (perhaps a bit too blatantly, in retrospect):

I don’t think anyone should be willing to go into Night One without having at least a few

substantial

posts from everyone otherwise we’ll have no record to base our investigations on the following day and that is going to be bad for the town as a whole.

I think that this has probably been picked up by scum, which is why I’m certain there is scum somewhere in {Rosso Carne, Twomz, Arafax, Colonel Kurtz, Cogito Ergo Sum}. There’s very little evidence of scumminess, nor are there many accusations [making a big deal of the four votes on Lowell; trying to appear in the spotlight without contributing].

Everyone was sitting about waiting for Lowell and conveniently forgetting to look at other players in the game… I thought energy would be better focussed on looking at other people and if Lowell shows up then we grill him about his lurking then. It wasn’t so much the four votes itself that I took issue with but the fact that everyone was willing to sit back and not contribute about any other scummy acts in the game.

As for trying to look like I’m in the spotlight, I didn’t really think that I was. I like everyone to contribute. It’d be easy for someone like CES, if scum, to cruise right through to Day Two and beyond with very little content to base any accusations and thoughts on other than his sporadic voting pattern. I would not like the town to go through not grilling him just because there’s not much to form an opinion upon. He has put himself on every wagon so far and so when it comes to Day Three (for example), what is the town going to say? That he was on the wagon that lynched an innocent? He’s been on

all

the wagons! I’m wary of anything that leaves so little to discuss or analyse and so I do spend a lot of my time thinking about these things and I frankly think it’s a possible scumtell if anyone is vehemently against this concept.

[Mert]

Meh, I'd rather not have claimed but I do take your point about looking like I was vanilla until I'd said something so it'll be okay hopefully. I'd like any

doc

that might be out there to protect me tonight...

[Mert]

LOL, that's a horrible breadcrumb.... you can't even classify that as a breadcrumb man....

I know... a few moments after I'd posted it I had a real "what was I thinking?" moment but I could hardly point that out in-thread until I'd claimed so I just sort of hoped nobody would notice... don't know what else to say really

Also, directing the doc is scummy, please don't do it.

Fair enough, though I'd like to survive long enough to get at least one investigation done...

[Mert]

unvote

Why did you unvote Arafax? Do you not think he looks scummy at the moment? Or was it to ease the pressure on him since he indicated that he was about to claim? Is he your scumbuddy?

Until you give reasons for these kind of actions,

FOS: omg_im_innocent_wtf

.

[Mert]

I really hope twomz is right and your claim doesnt pass so i can lynch you for shit like this.

I think not validating your arguments is a suspicious act. If you had a considered, valid reason for doing something, why would you be reluctant to say so? Obviously there are certain exceptions to this but I see nothing wrong with questioning motives and I truly don't understand why you take such issue with discussion.

[Mert]

You shouldn't worry about my investigation going to an inappropriate place, that judgement will be made after

very

careful consideration.

[Mert]

Thanks OMG, that's all I wanted to know really... I wasn't saying you were right or wrong particularly but I am wary of anything that happens without reasoning.

As for RC, I have been forming ideas of who I am going to investigate but yes, I would appreciate that not being dictated by others at the moment.

[Mert]

I'm not entirely sure I believe his claim... seems awfully convenient that when everyone wants to lynch him he suddenly claims an unlynchable role. But more than that, there’s something that I find disturbing about it:

4)

It's clear from the way my role is worded

, that I only have a certain number of "lynch passes". Although it doesn't say how many I have. (I doubt it's more than 2... it's probably just 1)

1. I won't die (amoung other things

now that i've looked over my pm closer

) and the day will end.

The emphasis is mine. In 323 you clearly indicate that you have read through your role again by saying how clear it is from the wording. You then go on in 327 to say you've now looked at your role closer and found that there are additional powers when you say "I won’t die (among other things…)" It seems to me that the following sequence of events has occurred:

- Rosso says in [265] that Twomz will claim Townie as it's what he always claims.
- Twomz doesn't claim Townie in 323 but claims Survivor.
- PP and Arafax [325 and 326 respectively] say that they don't believe his claim.
- Twomz [367] says "yeah well fine, I have extra powers I haven't told you about so you’d better be careful".

I don't believe your claim for a second but I guess there’s no real reason to test it out rather than follow Rosso's plan to just have you vigged. The only pitfall there being that we may not have a vig in this game but I guess we’ll find that out by Day Two anyway, at which point we can re-evaluate.

[Mert]

Vote: Lowell

That is all.

[Mert]

Erm, mert, you got a guilty on Lowell? Just to be completely clear here, please let me know if that is correct.

Out of curiosity, what made you check Lowell?

Yes, that's correct. My role specifically mentions that I am sane, though obviously I will know that for certain if it is tested today.

As for why I checked him, I just got the feeling that he was actively lurking. His strong reaction to being forced back into the game made me think about it and, upon readthrough, he appeared not to have really contributed very much to finding scum. In fact, most of his posts in this game have been jumping on or pushing a wagon. There's a certain discrepency between his Post 333 and Post 337. He says that he thinks Twomz's neutral role means he would also win with the scum and then goes on to say his role seems pro-town. It's neither. It's neutral. By definition.

Either way, whatever my reasons, I got a guilty result on him last night.

can i answer for him? And back up exactly why im suspiscious of him?

Please do...

[Mert]

Would it surprise anyone if lowell was a kami?

Well it wouldn't surprise me, nor would it surprise me if he wasn't aware of this fact (it says at the beginning of the game that some players have hidden abilities). But, having said that, surely it's just as possible that he's unNKable? You seem to be pushing pretty hard for him to not be lynched but for Twomz to NK him.

How about we don't lynch Lowell today, we get Twomz to try and NK him and if it fails then we do Rosso tomorrow for suggesting that that was the play? Hmmmm, I'll have a think about it.

[Mert]

Rosso, what makes you so sure that there's a kami element to Lowell? I mean, his claim is obviously not to be taken seriously so why is it that part that you feel is true? I know it happened with Twomz and it would also explain why Lowell seems to be baiting people with that claim, but you seem more certain than most.

If Lowell was a pro-town role, would he not refute the fact that I got a guilty on him last night? Kami or otherwise, I don't see him being town. It's certainly not a town move to lure someone into hammering you unless your sure that the hammer will be dropped by scum.

can i answer for him? And back up exactly why im suspiscious of him?

Still interested to hear this. You've said a few times that my having investigated Lowell was a poor move and have indicated that you're more suspicious of me following that particular choice so please say, as explicitly as possible, why that is the case.

[Mert]

If we lynch, why don't we let Twomz hammer since he's obviously a BG?

Explain why you're killing Red again?

Well I said that he might be the play tomorrow if Lowell turns out to be unNKable, since he was pushing so hard not have him lynched but to have him killed tonight.

I'm not advocating his death for any reason outside of that scenario though. I think Twomz was the first to say "how about Rosso hammers or I kill him tonight" or something similar.

[Mert]

Happy for Twomz to hammer, but I'm not 100% sold on him guaranteeing a Rosso nightkill at this time.

[Mert]

I'm actually really good at hitting scum w/ night abilities.

Yes, but your win condition isn't to kill all the scum, your win condition is to kill

everyone

. How do we know that it's necessarily in your best interest to hit scum tonight?

Opinions from other players would be greatly appriciated, and would lower y'alls chances to be NKed for lurking (after I pwn Rosso).

What I'd really like to hear are your reasons behind thinking Rosso is scum. It's quite obvious you don't have the backing of the town for that action at the moment, so why not present a case to us on why it's such a good plan? I haven't made my mind up about him yet and I don't want you to kill him without at least having posted your reasons for doing so.


Incidentally, it's been a while since we've heard from Kurtz or RandomActs...

[Mert]

Do you think that, after you, he's just paranoid that people will be kamis or do you think he

knows

that Lowell has that ability? I mean, I agree that he seems concerned about his own life but I guess I'm asking why you think that might be? To my mind, there's a distinct difference.

[Mert]

If you're right and Lowell is kami scum, then how do you propose we get rid of him? We can lynch Twomz I guess, but if Lowell is scum then at some point we will need to lynch him or have him vigged. I see no evidence of a vig at the moment and there's no guarantee we have one at all. I don't want to bet the town's future on the possibility that there's a vig, frankly.

Would it not be better to have the SK hammer and maybe end up dying than waiting until endgame where we can't afford to lose a townie? If Lowell kamis in the endgame then then the town loses, but at least now we have some fallback in the form of Twomz, who is expendable.

Plus, if you're right and Lowell is a kami, then what's wrong with getting Twomz to hammer exactly? #3 can't happen if #1 is the case. Twomz said he'd only kill you if he doesn't get killed by hammering Lowell. So if Lowell is the kami that you're convinced he is then why are you fussed about Twomz hammering? The only way all three of your items can be true is if someone other than Twomz is the one to hammer, though I thought we'd already thrown out the idea of anyone but him doing it...

[Mert]

Two questions:

1. What do you think Lowell's alignment is?

2. How certain are you that the Lowell can kami? On a scale of one to ten, say.

[Mert]

srsly, town + lowell = town wins.

So why the fake claim and hammer baiting? What I don't understand is that if he wins with the town then why does he seem to want to harm it? If he's a kami then baiting the town to hammer isn't helping anyone.

[Mert]

I too hadn't realised that his lynch meant an auto-win for him. I'd figured it'd just mean that both he and his final voter would both die. Hmmm, that does change things though I guess.

The thing is, Rosso is basically now claiming on Lowell's behalf and so I'd be interested to hear why it is exactly that he's so certain that Lowell is a kami, rather than just a role similar to Twomz. There is something unsettling about Rosso's actions on this matter, though I'm open to hear his reasoning behind his thoughts.

I'd also like to hear from Kurtz, CES etc on this. They've advocated his lynch and Kurtz has said the conversation is stupid and that he basically doesn't know what we're wasting time talking about it for. If Rosso is right and Lowell does win when lynched, does this change your opinion? Do you believe Rosso?

[Mert]

Meh, simulpost. Rosso, unless you have anything more to add you can safely ignore my second paragraph.

[Mert]

Lowell as Kami

I think the chances of having a kami who comes up as guilty are pretty remote, even with this being Thinking Mafia. I'm willing to accept that it might be that he takes someone with him, but I do not believe that he will win automatically when lynched.

I still don't understand why Rosso thinks Lowell is a character that will auto-win when lynched rather than, say, someone whose power is similar to Twomz'. I see how he'd think Lowell might have some reason for baiting a lynch vote but I cannot see anything in Lowell's posts that indicate that he is definitely a kami.

Lowell as Unlynchable Scum

I'm going to assume for the moment that there are no vigs in this game. There might well be and I'm certainly not asking people to claim vig if they are but I think it would be foolhardy to rely on the assumption that we do to get rid of anyone unlynchable.

In order to be sure, we need Twomz to hammer. If Lowell explodes and Twomz is killed then fine, that solves that problem. If Lowell dies and Twomz remains alive then we can always deal with him tomorrow. If both Lowell and Twomz survive into tonight uscathed then we might need Twomz to kill Lowell for us.

Lowell and Twomz as Scum Partners

More likely than the above two options, but a little confusing still. If they are both scum then having

two

unlynchable mafiates makes the situation even worse for the town and I don't see how the game could possibly be balanced when the town has to waste at least two days and two townies in just killing them off.

***

So I've thought about it and I have come to the conclusion that Lowell has to be the play today. I can't see any real viability in the scenarios above so the only one left, to my mind, is that Lowell is scum. He

might

take someone with him, so getting Twomz to hammer is clearly the safest bet here.

Confirm Vote: Lowell

.

[Mert]

As a side note, if we do have a vig, tonight would be a really good time to target Twomz.

Or if anyone can roleblock him at least...

[Mert]

Any good info, mert?

The person that I investigated last night was either protown or a GF, so yes but nothing that helps decide the play today, particularly.

For the moment I'm not going to reveal the confirmed innocent / GF, but I certainly will if they are about to be lynched. I may reveal before the end of today anyway, because of our dead doctor situation, though I haven't yet decided whether or not I will.

I'm not entirely opposed to a mass claim at this point, though before anyone does so, it might be an idea to discuss the order in which people will claim. Not sure how that will be best done, though I feel it warrants discussion.

[Mert]

I am not opposed to setting an order for a claim, but I'll wait to hear what the other players think about mass claiming before I start work on it.

[Mert]

When was the last time we heard from Bloojay?

[Mert]

Okay, it's worth pointing out that the innocent I got last night has not been a factor in my decision-making, due to the possibility of there being a GF. For that reason I have completely discarded that piece of information for the purposes of making this list and so any attempt to ascertain from it who I investigated will be entirely fruitless.

In order then, as I believe it would be best:

1. Pink Princess
   
2. Bloojay
   
3. Colonel Kurtz
   
4. Elias_the_thief
   
5. Cogito Ergo Sum

Technically of course I am going first as you all already know that I have claimed cop some time ago.

If you have questions on the reasons behind my order then I will be happy to address them once everyone has claimed. I will not go into detail on my reasons until such time that everyone has claimed.

Go!

[Mert]

The info I have - like who I blocked and such - I'd rather hold until the mass claim is over. Would anyone object to that?

Well I

do

have questions about it and you should know that witholding your information will obviously mean that it has to be looked at with greater scrutiny than if you say now, but if you have reasons not to disclose then that's fine by me on the proviso that we give you a bit of a grilling about it, heh.

[Mert]

Elias, you're up, pal.

[Mert]

Okay, reasons behind the list:

• Pink Princess
  went first largely because of her reluctance to lynch Lowell. She was very quick to jump on the idea of not lynching him and I sort of got the impression she was trying to butter me up a little while subtly disregarding my investigation result.
  
• Bloojay
  mostly for his lurking, I'll admit. I didn't want him to lurk his way through the day
  and
  not have to claim until the end. Since he wasn't counterclaimed as mason though, I'm inclined to believe him.
  
• Colonel Kurtz
  Struck me as very aggressive in certain areas and certainly looked to me to be possible scum. His fairly obvious bredcrumbing of vig seemed to me more like he might be setting up a claim than anything. It simply didn't make sense to me that he would have targetted Arafax and that Twomz would take credit for it. With Twomz being the SK, why would he claim on the basis of a kill he didn't make, effectively outing himself?
  
• Elias_the_thief
  To be honest, Elias hasn't really struck me as either pro- or anti-town... he's pretty neutral in my book, which is more than some others are so he had to go toward the end almost by default.
  
• Cogito Ergo Sum
  , I'll admit, took a little getting used to in terms of his playstyle but having learned to work with it and seen his actions in Day Two, I believe him to be pro-town.

Now some thoughts and questions based on people's claims:

The info I have - like who I blocked and such - I'd rather hold until the mass claim is over.

Obvious one to start with, why were you keen to withhold the information until afterward? Especially since you asked Kurtz to reveal after

his

claim?

anyways, I was the other mason, with Arafax.

Nobody counterclaimed, so I'm going to assume Bloojay is confirmed, basically.

Arafax then Twomz

Why did you target Arafax? Twomz was SK and he also claimed that he targetted Arafax - why would he claim SK on the basis of a kill he didn't make when he didn't have to?

I am a lucky townie. I have night kill immunity for one time use.

Do you not think that role is a bit on the vanilla side compared to everyone else in the game?

Counterclaim:

I'm the vigilante.

What do you think about Kurtz's bredcrumbing of the role? Since you're not going to admit to being scum (obviously), do you think he's more likely scum or more likely another SK?

Since I blocked Kurtz, his Arafax kill shouldn't have gone through. CEM says he didn't target anyone night one, but there were still 2 kills - meaning Kurtz didn't make one of those kills. Meaning CEM must have. Meaning he's probably scum.

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Why does two kills mean CES is de facto scum? The two kills, until now, were generally considered to be attributed to Twomz as SK and the scum group. Why is that now suddenly not an option?

Mert, who did you get an innocent on?

Due to the possible existance of a GF in this game, I'm going to hold fire on this for the moment. I haven't decided to definitely not disclose or anything as I'm still mulling over the options. If there is a town consensus on me revealing this information then I will need all five of the other remaining players to have 'voted' one way or the other on whether I should. Even if only one person has not given an opinion then I won't be buying the "but the town wants you to" argument. So, in other words, I haven't decided whether to or not yet.

[Mert]

He did, in fact, claim SK in his post 357. The closest he came to claiming vig was in that very post, just before he admitted to being the SK.

So, Kurtz - given that Twomz had claimed SK and didn't at any point claim vig, I have to ask again why you think he'd have done that if it wasn't actually him that killed Arafax.

In Day One he claimed Survivor with finite lynch immunity. This turned out to be (partly) true when he killed OMG. If he was SK, why would he not keep that part hidden, riding the Survivor claim out as long as he could? It makes no sense for him to claim SK for a kill he wasn't a part of.

[Mert]

He did. The sk made stab killings and the scum and I both apparently use guns. Flavor-wise, that makes far more sense than either the mafia or vig using a knife. Arafax was both stabbed and shot, so Twomz had to have targetted Arafax; your question is irrelevant.

So then what happened to the scum kill that night? PP said that

you

were the one she roleblocked, so either she is lying or you are on this issue.

If she's lying and she

didn't

roleblock you on Night One then are you suggesting that the scum killed nobody?

If she's not lying and she

did

block you then it means that the scumgroup, the SK and the vig would all have targetted the same person on the same night, just yours was blocked.

Frankly, I don't buy it.

Vote: Colonel Kurtz

.

[Mert]

I'd like to hear more from CES about

him

being the vig too, but I need to assume more coincidences in you being the vig than CES being so at the moment I'm leaning toward you being scum.

It is possible you could convince me otherwise with reasonable arguments, but if your only defense is that everyone is stupid then it's not going to do your case any favours, y'dig?

Still, CES, why didn't you target anyone on the first night? And what do you think about Kurtz's claim?

[Mert]

If we lynch wrong, we potentially lose the game (unless I block correctly tonight and prevent a mafia kill), Right? By the way, if I were scum with Kurtz I could lynch CES right now and win the game. So I should be cleared at this point as not scum with Kurtz.

There is always the possibility that you're scum with CES though.

That said, Pink Princess is the person for whom I got an innocent result last night. The thing is, I'm still not 100% sure she's not scum as we stand currently, which is why I've been a bit coy about revealing this info - I didn't want people to write her off as definitely (or even more likely) town before we'd probed her about her claim and her reluctance to have Lowell lynched.

[Mert]

sorry, forgot to input my response. Anyways I stated this in the beginning of the game like second page I think. I'll look for a post number if you want.

Just did a quick skim of your posts from the early stages of the game and couldn't find anything much other than a couple of notes that his voting seemed a little odd. Certainly nothing so explicit as you disliking his playstyle generally.

Could you provide the post number, please?

[Mert]

Kurtz, would you be willing to target CES tonight if we lynched somebody else?

CES, same question with the names reversed.

[Mert]

Thanks, Elias.

[Mert]

Right, I've been trying to work through the various scenarios in my head. I am honoured to present my findings...

The following assume a worst-case scenario in which there are two remaining scum. It also assumes that one of {Kurtz, CES} is scum and one is the vig.

If we lynch Elias and Pink Princess is a mafia roleblocker:

• Day - We lynch Elias and he is town. This leaves five players, two of whom are scum.
  
• Night - Kurtz and CES target one another. Pink Princess blocks the non-scum of {Kurtz, CES}.
  Town loses.

If we lynch Pink Princess and she is pro-town:

• Day - We lynch Pink Princss who is town. This leaves five players, two of whom are scum.
  
• Night - Kurtz and CES target one another, leaving three players, one of whom is scum.
  
• Day - LyLo with two confirmed players.
  Town wins.

If we lynch Pink Princess and she is a mafia roleblocker

• Day - We lynch Pink Princess who is scum. This leaves five players, two of whom are scum.
  
• Night - Kurtz and CES target one another.
  Town wins.

If we no-lynch and Pink Princess is a mafia roleblocker:

• Day - We lynch nobody. This leaves us with six players, two of whom are scum.
  
• Night - Kurtz and CES target one another. Pink Princess blocks the non-scum of {Kurtz, CES}. This leaves us with five players, two of whom are scum.
  
• Day - Pink Princess is lynched, leaving us with four players, one of whom is scum.
  
• Night - The scum in {Kurtz, CES} kills. This leaves us with three players, one of whom is scum.
  
• Day - We lynch the scum from {Kurtz, CES}.
  Town wins.

If we no-lynch and Pink Princess is a pro-town roleblocker:

• Day - We lynch nobody. This leaves us with six players, two of whom are scum.
  
• Night - Kurtz and CES target one another. Pink Princess blocks nobody. This leaves us with four players, one of whom is scum.
  
• Day - We lynch Elias or Pink Princess, being the only living players who are unconfirmed.
  LyLo.

If Elias is town then it means Pink Princess is definitely scum. While Elias may well be scum, the risk of leaving Pink Princess alive is too great. To my mind there are several options, but the best two scenarios involve Pink Princess being lynched today. I think this is the town's best shot.

Unvote, Vote: Pink Princess

.

[Mert]

The Eliastown .'. PPscum thing was on the assumption that we had two further mafiates in this game.

If we do and we lynch Elias (who turns up town) followed by you and CES targetting one another then we'd be left with three "confirmed" players - PP for not roleblocking the vig, me for being the cop and Bloo for being a mason.

If

there are two more scum to catch and we lynch Eliastown then PP must be scum and it'll mean we lose.

As for your point about the GF never being a roleblocker, I did take that onboard at the time but, with this being "thinking mafia", and with an exploding unlynchable survivor SK in the game I'm not willing to write anything off at this point...

[Mert]

Sorry, why are we not following a strategy that guarantees a town win again?

[Mert]

Unvote

I think it's fair to assume CES and Kurtz will end up keeping their votes on one another. If there's scum in {Pink Princess, Elias} then the scum will vote for the vig, the pro-town hopefully won't.

That means it's basically down to my partner in confirmedness, Bloojay and I to cast the lynching votes. And he's not here.

I'd like Bloojay to help me out here (please!). I'd like to hear more from CES on the latest developments from Camp Kurtz. I'd like to hear more from Elias defending himself against the constant assertions that he is scum - he's barely said a word, despite all the suspicion that seems to be on him at the moment.

I don't think we're getting anywhere with just me, PP and Kurtz arguing amongst ourselves...

[Mert]

But you have posted more since then with different ideas etc. I'm just looking for somebody else to add something at the moment - after all, even if the three of us can agree, we're still not going to reach a majority with just us are we?

[Mert]

I strongly support no-lynch.

[Mert]

Got innocent on Elias last night, got innocent on PP last night, still nobody counterclaiming Bloo and I know I'm the cop.

Now I'm in a pickle.

[Mert]

Why are you going to wait for Bloo? He's the most confirmed person here and he has been notably absent for large portions of this game?

Stalling for time, Mr Thief?

[Mert]

I've posted this in every game I'm in:

Sorry, I've completely lost touch of what's going on in all my games with all the trouble we've been having. I've set some time aside tomorrow to refresh my memory on everything and begin posting properly again. My apologies for the delay.

[Mert]

Meh, yesterday the site was still down and this morning I have been prodded? Well I guess this game could do with being over with.

On quick skim re-read, I'm going to

Vote: Elias

... let's see...