Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[Katsuki]

I wish we could've seen how this game would've played out without the modkills to be honest...

[Katsuki]

(although it probably would've been a 3P win then, which would raise into questions 3P winning after dying etcetc. but still)

[implosion]

As for setup balance... I think the operative word here is "swingy," but really, anyone joining this game should be able to tell that it's swingy by the scum's win condition. The scum could have had a target lynched day one, two shot night one, another lynched day two, and another killed night two (so scum could have won night two, or theoretically day two if the first days were long enough for greyice to get his daykill ability).

I think 5 targets is about right. I think the town did a relatively bad job of concealing who they were (pretty much any info was enough to determine who someone was - for instance, i figured out that magna was probably Tibarn based on what they said on day one), and then there were people who just outright claimed... which also let LLD do the same. I think that was probably a significant mistake. I think if this setup were played 100 times, it probably would lean a bit scumsided. Especially considering that the town was helped by two crosskills.

I think if the town did a better job with just claiming abilities and not identities, then it would have been better for them - if Magna had just claimed "masonizer" instead of "masonizer, and the leader of a country" then we wouldn't have known he was probably a target - i'm sure there's plenty of room for pretty much any ability in this game in flavor.

[GreyICE]

Meh, lets be honest. Town victory.

Dramonic/Kanye were soooo far under the scum radar as power roles. We were operating off the assumption that all of our targets were strong power roles (We thought MoI could masonize more than one person). Unless Kanye claimed to have the restorer staff (we twigged Elencia = healer) we would never have guessed that he was our target, and another target being alive would have been awesome.

Of course Oman/Rhinox and Benmage may both have been mislynched, but they may not have. So overall, I'd say the odds of town victory were... high... minus modkills.

[Gammagooey]

really the biggest thing that irritates me about the game is how easy it was for town to get fucked over.
in a game starting with lets say 27 players after taking out the two suiciders and having a good night 1, town lynched 2 out of 3 of the scum left in the game with 5 lynches. And we only BARELY had a chance to have an endgame, with the *numbers* rushing the final lynch as well. If duplicity hadn't died night 1 town would have gotten number decimated, if implosion hadn't died night 1 we would have had to lynch 4 scum in 6 days with a ridiculous number of people in-game because the numbers would have fucked us anyway, AND we basically quicklynched days 4 5 and the modkill day 6 came really early as well.

I think town played pretty well this game and if we had played at "about average" then we would have gotten completely slaughtered. Yeah it's more irritating because I think I individually played well but I don't think that town had a very good chance of winning this game.

[Katsuki]

As for setup balance... I think the operative word here is "swingy," but really, anyone joining this game should be able to tell that it's swingy by the scum's win condition. The scum could have had a target lynched day one, two shot night one, another lynched day two, and another killed night two (so scum could have won night two, or theoretically day two if the first days were long enough for greyice to get his daykill ability).

I think 5 targets is about right. I think the town did a relatively bad job of concealing who they were (pretty much any info was enough to determine who someone was - for instance, i figured out that magna was probably Tibarn based on what they said on day one), and then there were people who just outright claimed... which also let LLD do the same. I think that was probably a significant mistake. I think if this setup were played 100 times, it probably would lean a bit scumsided. Especially considering that the town was helped by two crosskills.

I think if the town did a better job with just claiming abilities and not identities, then it would have been better for them - if Magna had just claimed "masonizer" instead of "masonizer, and the leader of a country" then we wouldn't have known he was probably a target - i'm sure there's plenty of room for pretty much any ability in this game in flavor.

You forget that unlike scum, town had no idea what the scum wincon exactly ws.

[Gammagooey]

uh kats you realize this was in the second mod-post of the game right? like it only being 5 players was a surprise but we did have a general idea.

*As a member of the majority, you win when the Daein Resistance has been subdued and one person with this Win Condition still lives.

[implosion]

Yeah. I think the main problem with that was that the town's lynching rate subverted Vi's expectations.

Vi, what was up with that thing in oversoul's role pm that said... you know?

[implosion]

I remember glork guessing that it would be 5-8 at some point.

:shrug:.

[kanyeknowsbest]

Meh, lets be honest. Town victory.

Dramonic/Kanye were soooo far under the scum radar as power roles. We were operating off the assumption that all of our targets were strong power roles (We thought MoI could masonize more than one person). Unless Kanye claimed to have the restorer staff (we twigged Elencia = healer) we would never have guessed that he was our target, and another target being alive would have been awesome.

Of course Oman/Rhinox and Benmage may both have been mislynched, but they may not have. So overall, I'd say the odds of town victory were... high... minus modkills.

i crumbed pretty fucking hard that i restored glork which was probably a mistake (also crumbed my pacifist thing a few times.) if lambda didnt pick up on those then yeah, i agree that i probably wasnt dying ever.

[Tierce]

Dude, those crumbs were preeeetty damn obvious--I think I brought them up several times, which was probably a mistake--but then again, I think it got to a point in which scum wasn't bothering to read my posts anyway. Well played, kanye. Pity about the modkill.

[GreyICE]

I was out of the game by that point, so I certainly wasn't reading anyone's posts very closely. I did some fun setup spec on the last day when we had a chance to win again, but really until the modkill I thought we were sunk.

LLD might have noticed the crumbs, but honestly there were a lot of people and a lot to read.

[Glork]

I remember glork guessing that it would be 5-8 at some point.

:shrug:.

There is ONE scum faction. We've been over this already.

Jesus shit, guys. Stop being retarded.

There have already been discussions about game mechanics / win condition.

Pretty sure we have to find 5-6 scums before they find a list of... idk, 5-8 townies?

[singersigner]

Kiiinda thought you were scummy for speculating that specifically with that much confidence...and for claiming to be looking for a target yourself...

[Shift]

Unfortunately I wasn't able to keep up after we died but wow, what a turnout. The fact that scum pulled out a win with 3 scum dead by Night 3, even with the modkills, is really impressive.

Thanks for the game Vi, was a lot of fun.

And did I mention Regfan is a beast?

[Shift]

Err Night 2. You get the point.

[Katsuki]

uh kats you realize this was in the second mod-post of the game right? like it only being 5 players was a surprise but we did have a general idea.

*As a member of the majority, you win when the Daein Resistance has been subdued and one person with this Win Condition still lives.

Yes I realize that. I'm saying that town didn't know what it exactly was though, who/how many of the targets were.

I won't talk about if the targets were obvious or not though since I have no flavor knowledge so.

[Katsuki]

Seeing that glork post, I do kinda feel silly now given that I didn't know about the scum wincon early on.

I did miss the first 30 pages or so due to being out of commission though, then finals and SoL and etc.
sigh

[Magister Ludi]

Uberninja really fucked this town over.

Anyways, good job scum! I thought LLD was a little off for not voting me and declaring me scum solidly at some point, but I really doubted that to the moon and back. And that spyreX lynch really made me sad.

[Vi]

i remember thinking that gamma played a good game.

Gamma wins this game's Cassandra award, yes.

all we had was an ambiguous colored number that was getting bigger. you can extrapolate various nebulous things from this but we had no where near the amount of information the scumhad on the setup to be competitive and this my biggest gripe about the whole affair.

The number wasn't really that ambiguous with a bit of flavor knowledge (which a bunch of people had). This scenario is taken right out of the game almost wholesale and without modification, and this particular Chapter ends when the counter reaches 80. As for the scum having knowledge about it, they had Nailah's information ability "Chaos Premonition" but really that was about it. The odd mumblings that people were getting Roleblocked due to the number showed that

Town

knew more about it, if anything.

As for Town not knowing who the targets were... hint, it's probably not Kyza or Rolf. I'm just saying.

Yeah. I think the main problem with that was that the town's lynching rate subverted Vi's expectations.

Vi, what was up with that thing in oversoul's role pm that said... you know?

I basically expected MetaTiger/MoCO again.
"lol 29 players let's quicklynch some loser and get it over with"
"OMG NUMBERS GOING UP LET'S LYNCH

EVEN FASTER

lol"

Yyyyyyright. Oversoul was supposed to leave the game in N2 Twilight, not... the middle of Day 1. There's a very good reason I threw in that Heron-language note that the game was already one cycle (Day/Night) behind what I wanted.

[Quilford]

;-;

[Shmugen]

I replaced in to this game, and as I got my PM I started scrolling through it. I got to the picture and went, 'Hm. That looks somewhat maiden-ish...'. Got to the text, 'Welcome, Shmu! You are MICAIAH, THE EVIL SCUM BOSS. GOOD FREAKING LUCK, SON'. And thusly the short-lived reign of Shmucaiah began.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

First off I do want to apologize for not counter-claiming LLD near immediately, guess there's a reason the conventional wisdom is understood to be conventional. I guess if I was designing the setup I would've done several things differently and that biased my perspective.

This group is completely useless and went into turn their brain off mode way too early: ToastyToast, Magister Ludi, danakillsu, Katsuki, and Nikanor. Because I was signalling town as hard and as often as I know how.

Tierce and Glork hurt because they were both right for so much of the critical day. Tierce was probably the only reason we got as close as we did on D7 standing behind me and then for her to flop on me hurt. And Glork was right about one of LLD/DDD being scum which I didn't want to accept and he even got which one of us was scum right initially but then hammered me basically to get any lynch instead of the right lynch.

~~

Vi, I think I mentioned it in passing but while I agree with the neccesity of the modkill it was something where you completely outsmarted yourself and created a potential hazard where one didn't need to exist. Additionally, while the core of the game might have been interesting to rehabilitate I'm not sure it works that well even after rehab. Furthermore, the blue numbers of doom was a completely bad idea; with the battery mechanic the town has some idea of what to expect, here we were completely in the dark and designing a mechnic around how a single town behaved to a different mechanic probably isn't the best idea.

Absolutely no regrets in playing the game in terms of design or playerbase but if offered the chance to do it again I probably would not accept.

[Rhinox]

Extra thanks and <3s to the people who replaced in over 100 pages in (in spite of how things turned out).

[AurorusVox]

;_;

Well as much as anything, this was a hydratic learning experience for Pere and myself I think.

We were late to the party at times, but also the thread was freakin fast. I think at one point I went to bed during a night phase, and woke up during the next night phase. Yikes.

But when we were caught up, I think, true to Hippo Nature, that although we may have been slow off the mark, eventually we were pretty solid (see: finally realising ML was town, finally picking Alch over Grey, finally realising DDD was town).

I enjoyed this game a lot more when I was able to keep up rather than catch up. There are swathes of the game that I haven't read though, so that might have helped. Thanks for modding, Vi, and thanks for the ridiculous amount of flavour. The trollFlips were excellent additions that made me choke a little every time ^^