Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[singersigner]

Who (other than me) hasn't been investigated/confirmed, yet?

If one of LLD and DDD aren't lynched today, then I'd suggest they target different people? As if that wasn't obvious already...

[Katsuki]

We're not exactly sure that we can afford to whittle that much more down?

We have a shitton of people alive and 4 dead scum + a SK?

I mean I don't expect to be alive with say 2 claimed country cops, a claimed RB and claimed bodyguard if I were alive in 5p.

It kinda raises the question of whether lynching the claimed PRs would be the right move here, or to go for those who haven't... Only expose more PRs with the latter really but hey what do I know I'm bad at mafia.

[Tierce]

Kats.

Stop there.

Go read the scum wincon.

[Vi]

Vote Count XLI:

Ilyana
Debonair Danny DiPietro (L-6) ~ Lady Lambdadelta, ToastyToast
Gammagooey (L-7) ~ singersigner
Nikanor (L-7) ~ Hinduragi

Not Voting:

Teleporting Speed Hippos, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gammagooey, Glork,

Hinduragi,

Katsuki, Magister Ludi, Nikanor, Tammy, Tierce,

ToastyToast,

danakillsu

--With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

73

[Katsuki]

Oh... That changes things...

>.>

Kanye sucks even more now and hippos probably need death.

[Katsuki]

Skimmed iso hippo reaction to the sanaki stuff was pretty bad

He'd sooner believe GI over one of his supposed "townreads" in alchy.

sighhhhhhhhh someone else read this gut isn't picking up any particularly STRONG scum vibes but some things make me feel a bit uneasy.

[Tammy]

So, he learns that I'm from Kilvas, which is a non-Daein country, and who does he choose to start his counterwagon on?

I think I've made it very clear that I don't think scum is entirely from Daein and that there are numerous false positives and negatives and when I examined the provided flavor for your country it seemed one of the more likely choices for non-Red scum.

Hmm...interesting. You have your theory and I have mine. I think it's entirely plausible that you, as scum, could have country copped me and found out that I was from Kilvas. You could have then pushed for my lynch to either get me to claim to learn who I was from Kilvas and find out if I was the person on your target list or get me lynched as a death is a death so it wouldn't really matter. Your continual bringing up the idea for me to use my ability during the day to confirm myself and leave myself completely vulnerable at night makes this possibility more likely to me.

Now, of course, there's the possibility that you're just a very paranoid townie but the fact that you were willing to start a counterwagon and lynch me on the basis of a theory that you have about the make up of the scum team makes that very doubtful.

Almost every single member of the scum team has come back red - from Daein. Duplicity came back blue and self-aligned. GreyIce, however, came back not red. He came back from Hatari, and the flavor on the first page says that she has ties to both Serenes and Daein and hasn't picked a side in the war.

Interesting, so one person did come back not solely red. Tell me, what led you to come up with this theory that at least one member of the scum team would come back not Daein?

[Tammy]

Skimmed iso hippo reaction to the sanaki stuff was pretty bad

He'd sooner believe GI over one of his supposed "townreads" in alchy.

sighhhhhhhhh someone else read this gut isn't picking up any particularly STRONG scum vibes but some things make me feel a bit uneasy.

I've felt quite uneasy about TSH for a bit now, but I'm willing to accept that's paranoia on my end.

I don't know why they were unable to protect Alchemist and not sure about the Chaos thing. Do bodyguards typically get told when they're bodyguarding abilities would no longer work?

Why would they assume they had been roleblocked anyway?

Also, why are they trying to either fish for more information on my ability or say that wifom was included to lynch me? If they assume they've been roleblocked, then they know my ability has limitations. If I am on the list, and scum has a roleblocker, all they have to do is block me - I can't leave - and then kill me. That hasn't happened, so either I'm not on the list or they don't have a roleblocker anymore. And, I'm rather inclined to think that GreyIce was the roleblocker.

But, this could be paranoia talking.

[Tammy]

Now, excuse me--but we're missing a kill, I think? We got the Alchemist-blocked-GreyICE one, but there is at least one other night with a missing kill IIRC.

Alchemist blocked Toasty the night before last and there was no kill. I left that night as well, so I just want to make sure that was put into consideration for the missing kill before we jump to conclusions on the Toasty front.

The other night we're missing a kill is night two - If we assume Duplicity could kill each night, his kill was potentially missed that night.

[Tammy]

I find it rather interesting that he uses as a reason for why he investigated me that he didn't think much of my votes. Does he mean the votes I placed? Day one was MoI (fine he was town), Implosion (scum), Quilford (town and who I moved to to get a lynch). Day two was Nexus (scum who I only moved from because of the arguments put forth to give another day and a lack of a counterclaim), and Oman and Nexus again.

So, what was so wrong with my votes?

Also, noted, you didn't answer this question DDD.

[Magister Ludi]

Why can't toasty be scum? The alchemist block was on toasty, and toasty claims to have blocked benmage town.

[Nikanor]

Why can't toasty be scum? The alchemist block was on toasty, and toasty claims to have blocked benmage town.

For this reason, I think that Toasty is scum.

Also keep in mind that GreyICE, one who was not above suspicion, made the kill on n4. This means that our last one/two scum probably isn't included in our list of 'confirmed town,' because in that case, that person would have made the kill instead of Grey. Using this logic, we can clear people like Gammagooey, who definitely would have sent in the kill instead of GreyICE if he were scum.
This also plays into my theory of Toasty-scum.

[ToastyToast]

@Nikanor: Both Alchemist and I were claimed roleblockers, and as such I can see scum withholding the kill for that very reason. By with-holding the kill, it puts suspicion on two players,

and

turns the roleblockers against one another.

I also think your logic on "well, if Gamma was scum he definitely would've made the kill" is wrong for the above reason. Also, just because one scum is more town than the other does not necessarily mean they made the kill. And couldn't I say the same thing? The day of the GreyICE lynch, and the day before, I was viewed more townish than he.

[Hinduragi]

The more Nikanor posts the more I want him dead. The fact he's made it this far is an accomplishment.

[Teleporting Speed Hippos]

Skimmed iso hippo reaction to the sanaki stuff was pretty bad

He'd sooner believe GI over one of his supposed "townreads" in alchy.

How so?
We immediately believed GI when he claimed.
When Alch claimed, if you actually read, I specifically said that I wanted to believe ALCH but he was being bonkers.
I said it MORE THAN ONCE that I thought GI had more reason to fake the claim than Alchemist.
So take this trash away.

---

I've felt quite uneasy about TSH for a bit now, but I'm willing to accept that's paranoia on my end.

I don't know why they were unable to protect Alchemist and not sure about the Chaos thing.

We were unable to protect Alchemist because of the Chaos mechanic. I believe this mechanic limits town PRs, but I'm not sure how: it'll either be based on time (possible, but least likely), claims (is it more than coincidence that our role became redundant after our target claimed?), gamestate (town PRs scaling down as scum are killed off), or it's the RB from the scumteam.

Do bodyguards typically get told when they're bodyguarding abilities would no longer work?

Being told has nothing to do with us being a BG, and everything to do with us being caught up in the chaos mechanic.

Why would they assume they had been roleblocked anyway?

Because I don't think scum risk killing Alch unless they knew we were not going to be a factor.

Also, why are they trying to either fish for more information on my ability or say that wifom was included to lynch me? If they assume they've been roleblocked, then they know my ability has limitations. If I am on the list, and scum has a roleblocker, all they have to do is block me - I can't leave - and then kill me. That hasn't happened, so either I'm not on the list or they don't have a roleblocker anymore. And, I'm rather inclined to think that GreyIce was the roleblocker.

I wasn't aware your ability could even BE blocked - surely the fact that you can LEAVE prevents actions occurring on your slot?

But, this could be paranoia talking.

[REDACTED]

[Glork]

Skimmed iso hippo reaction to the sanaki stuff was pretty bad

He'd sooner believe GI over one of his supposed "townreads" in alchy.

sighhhhhhhhh someone else read this gut isn't picking up any particularly STRONG scum vibes but some things make me feel a bit uneasy.

Go back and read the Nexus lych again, and ten please revise your opinion of a TSH lynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Your continual bringing up the idea for me to use my ability during the day to confirm myself and leave myself completely vulnerable at night makes this possibility more likely to me.

This isn't really accurate, my first and only goal is confirmation of your ability. You should note that I proposed a plan to allow you to use your ability at night and for Hindu to confirm it; except that Hindu fucked the plan up. Given that your claim is the reason you were really let off the hook on D3 and we've had no independent verification of said ability I think it's reasonable to want to see the proof.

Almost every single member of the scum team has come back red - from Daein. Duplicity came back blue and self-aligned. GreyIce, however, came back not red. He came back from Hatari, and the flavor on the first page says that she has ties to both Serenes and Daein and hasn't picked a side in the war.

Interesting, so one person did come back not solely red. Tell me, what led you to come up with this theory that at least one member of the scum team would come back not Daein?

Mod meta, if all scum were red my role would function as a fairly normal cop. Vi hates normal cops and thus the only logical assumption is that the role is useful but not a red = scum = lynch lynch lynch and not red = town = never lynch scenario. I think this is also one of two possible conclusions we can draw from LLD's continued existance, if she's not scum clearly scum must not believe she's actually a significant threat to them or she would've likely been blocked or killed at some point which suggests that our role has limited utility at this point.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I find it rather interesting that he uses as a reason for why he investigated me that he didn't think much of my votes. Does he mean the votes I placed? Day one was MoI (fine he was town), Implosion (scum), Quilford (town and who I moved to to get a lynch). Day two was Nexus (scum who I only moved from because of the arguments put forth to give another day and a lack of a counterclaim), and Oman and Nexus again.

So, what was so wrong with my votes?

Also, noted, you didn't answer this question DDD.

There's nothing OMG she's scum about the votes, but you moved off scum onto a town mislynch and while I've said the Nexus/Oman movement isn't inherently scummy it's not town either it's just rational. All in all the votes certainly are the sort where you have lots of question marks and make for a good investigation.

[Glork]

Well DDD, considering Kurthnaga is in this game, is surely scum, and is from Goldoa, yes.... I'm pretty sure that -- aside from actually investigating somebody from Goldoa at this point -- there's not a lot of value in the country-cops now.

[Glork]

Why can't toasty be scum? The alchemist block was on toasty, and toasty claims to have blocked benmage town.

For this reason, I think that Toasty is scum.

Also keep in mind that GreyICE, one who was not above suspicion, made the kill on n4. This means that our last one/two scum probably isn't included in our list of 'confirmed town,' because in that case, that person would have made the kill instead of Grey. Using this logic, we can clear people like Gammagooey, who definitely would have sent in the kill instead of GreyICE if he were scum.
This also plays into my theory of Toasty-scum.

How does "other scum not on the confirmed town" play into your Toasty-scum theory? There was barely any impetus against Toasty at the end of D4. Virtually none. I would definitely have had Toasty make the kill over Grey N4.



DDD, who do you think are the scums, and why?
Ludi, same question.
LLD, why do you think you would be given a character from Daein if there is no protown investigative role that could investigate you as 'scum'?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, who do you think are the scums, and why?

Ordered from top to bottom in terms of town scum even within the lists.

Don't think I'll vote today under any circumstances

Debonair Danny DiPietro
Danakillsu
Teleporting Speed Hippos
Glork
Tierce

Really kind of wish they were dead because I don't trust them and their abilities as far as I can throw them

Lady Lambdadelta
Hinduragi
Tammy

Lots of irritating little things, but enough town stuff to keep them from the bottom

singersigner
Gammagooey
Nikanor
Katsuki

Did you know that ML hasn't voted for scum all game unless Tammy is scum; And Toasty was blocked the night of a missing kill

Magister Ludi
ToastyToast

[Tammy]

Your continual bringing up the idea for me to use my ability during the day to confirm myself and leave myself completely vulnerable at night makes this possibility more likely to me.

This isn't really accurate, my first and only goal is confirmation of your ability. You should note that I proposed a plan to allow you to use your ability at night and for Hindu to confirm it; except that Hindu fucked the plan up. Given that your claim is the reason you were really let off the hook on D3 and we've had no independent verification of said ability I think it's reasonable to want to see the proof.

You did offer a potential solution; that is true. I have been as up front as I possibly can be, and told more of the limitations of my role than I would have liked to, in an effort to be as transparent and helpful to town as I can. I have also offered twice now to leave during the day. The day of the GI lynch, I offered to leave for proof after Hindu didn't die the night I left. I, however, am much less willing to leave during the day for proof now that we've had a couple more deaths of people who are potentially on the list. If you are town, I hope that you can understand why. If I am on the list, and Glork is right that there aren't many left, I am not about to help scum achieve their wincon just to satisfy your paranoia.

Also, if you are town, I hope you can understand why I find it suspicious when people do bring it up and want it proofed. Although, funnily enough I find Tierce to be far more suspicious in this regard than you, but that's perhaps because I've read you as town most of the game, and barring some moments of reading her as town I've largely read her as scum and still do. However, some of my faith in my weaker town reads has been shaken after GreyIce came back scum when I read him as town. So, I'm looking at you more suspiciously than I was before, and while I guess I can understand your reasoning for your day 3 push on me, I can still very much see the scum motivation in it as well as I find it very highly likely that scum would have a country cop.

If I didn't think I was on the list, then none of this would matter and I'd plan a time to proof it, and I know there is a possibility I'm not there. But, I am a leader of a nation, my flavor tells me that the empress demanded my presence, and I was given a commuter role in the middle of the second day, which I breadcrumbed immediately afterwards, and the flavor of the ability is that battle is getting too bloodthirsty for my liking. All of this tells me that the likelihood of me being on the list is high, and I don't want to take any chances, especially if there aren't many others left. (And we just potentially lost two due to modkills and nightkills)

That being said, if we get to a point where it becomes necessary to proof it because I'm an unknown to the people still alive and we're getting down on numbers, then we can discuss it again, but right now I think it's more important that I stay alive.

[Tammy]

I find it rather interesting that he uses as a reason for why he investigated me that he didn't think much of my votes. Does he mean the votes I placed? Day one was MoI (fine he was town), Implosion (scum), Quilford (town and who I moved to to get a lynch). Day two was Nexus (scum who I only moved from because of the arguments put forth to give another day and a lack of a counterclaim), and Oman and Nexus again.

So, what was so wrong with my votes?

Also, noted, you didn't answer this question DDD.

There's nothing OMG she's scum about the votes, but you moved off scum onto a town mislynch and while I've said the Nexus/Oman movement isn't inherently scummy it's not town either it's just rational. All in all the votes certainly are the sort where you have lots of question marks and make for a good investigation.

I regret moving from Implosion to Quilford, and when I accidentally voted Implosion a second time in the post that I said I was moving to Quilford I took it as a Freudian slip of sorts that I shouldn't move and should stay with my first instinct (well second, I was convinced MoI was scum). However, I really didn't see any reason to not vote for Quilford that day either and the day had gone very long. I can sort of see your point about Nexus, and if I had moved earlier it would be even more rational; however, I did have to be nearly talked into giving Nexus another day.

Either way, I dont' care that you investigated me; I don't have anything to hide in this game. I'm trying to make sense of you and your motivations.

[singersigner]

As retarded as this would be, if we proved it today and scum target her tonight, she wouldn't die, hindu would, right? (or whoever it was that's the BG?)

Not that I actually want to do that, just throwing it out there.

[Tammy]

No, both Hindu and I would die if I'm targeted. I don't have a bodyguard, he's a one way lover to me. My only protection is being able to leave.