Mini 352- Saints and Sinners Mafia - Abandoned

[ibaesha]

^^ :goodposting:

unvote; vote Kelly

Toki seems alright to me so far. I think Pie is grasping at straws in his reasoning to vote. (noted), but I can't dismiss Kelly's odd behavior.

[al_kohaulec]

I didn't think it was pointless...

...but you're not on it, either. I've got to say your behavior hasn't made much sense to me so far this game.

And her odd behavior is the main reason for my vote on her.

[Kelly Chen]

I didn't think it was pointless...

...but you're not on it, either. I've got to say your behavior hasn't made much sense to me so far this game.

I think it's pretty clear I had no problem with this bandwagon.

I don't think tokiyoh's responses have been that great. He's a bit defensive.

I'm a little concerned that I've made myself an easy target. I think I've been helpful, though.

Ibby, you should be like me and

vote: MOS

if you want off of tokiyoh. MOS is supposed to have told us who the scum are by now.

[ibaesha]

Kelly: Why would I want to be like you when I don't trust you at all and find you the most suspicious right now? And as far as you being an easy target, don't kid yourself. You're not some newbie making newbie mistakes. You're experienced, and open set-ups are your favorite type of game. If anything you'd be a difficult target. If you feel that you're an easy target, please explain why.

Also, if anything, toki strikes me as underdefensive. When someone is run up, obviously they're going to defend themselves to the best of their ability. I felt he took it in stride and has answered points against him rather well. Including the one where you state that he was echoing mikanoff when he really wasn't. That was a misrepresentation by you.

Oh and one more thing. When someone his fine with a wagon and actually contributes towards pointing out why someone might be scum, as you did, but doesn't put their vote where their mouth is, I find -that- suspicious.

[Kelly Chen]

Kelly: Why would I want to be like you when I don't trust you at all and find you the most suspicious right now? And as far as you being an easy target, don't kid yourself. You're not some newbie making newbie mistakes. You're experienced, and open set-ups are your favorite type of game. If anything you'd be a difficult target. If you feel that you're an easy target, please explain why.

I'm not making any mistakes IIRC. It looks like it's easy to say that being "weird" makes me suspicious. Surprising, since there are a lot of scumchatters here.

Also, if anything, toki strikes me as underdefensive. When someone is run up, obviously they're going to defend themselves to the best of their ability. I felt he took it in stride and has answered points against him rather well. Including the one where you state that he was echoing mikanoff when he really wasn't. That was a misrepresentation by you.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Oh and one more thing. When someone his fine with a wagon and actually contributes towards pointing out why someone might be scum, as you did, but doesn't put their vote where their mouth is, I find -that- suspicious.

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

[ibaesha]

I'm not making any mistakes IIRC. It looks like it's easy to say that being "weird" makes me suspicious. Surprising, since there are a lot of scumchatters here.

You are acting

openly

strange. I already said what I think of this. And the fact that you say that it makes you an easy target is ridiculous. You are the one with the behavior, therefore people are going to react to it.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Nice way to attempt to twist my intent. I stated clearly why I was happy with wagonning him first and it had nothing to do with your observation of him. It had more to do with me thinking about it after you voted him and deciding it was a good place to start the day based on my past experiences with him.

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

Yes, exactly. What IS your agenda, and why do you have one? The fact that I have found myself consistently asking myself why you are doing and saying the things you are lends itself towards my belief that you are attempting to spin WIFOM early on as I've already stated and explained.

Very happy with my vote.

[Kelly Chen]

I'm not making any mistakes IIRC. It looks like it's easy to say that being "weird" makes me suspicious. Surprising, since there are a lot of scumchatters here.

You are acting

openly

strange. I already said what I think of this. And the fact that you say that it makes you an easy target is ridiculous. You are the one with the behavior, therefore people are going to react to it.

Hopefully the scum will. I don't see the contradiction above, I'm an easy target am I not? I have like three votes right now for being weird.

Wow. I was just saying that I felt tokiyoh's first post kind of blended in with what was going on, without really saying anything new. Is that not why you were okay with wagoning him in the first place?

Nice way to attempt to twist my intent. I stated clearly why I was happy with wagonning him first and it had nothing to do with your observation of him. It had more to do with me thinking about it after you voted him and deciding it was a good place to start the day based on my past experiences with him.

Oh...

Yeah? So what's my agenda? Am I defending tokiyoh?

Yes, exactly. What IS your agenda, and why do you have one? The fact that I have found myself consistently asking myself why you are doing and saying the things you are lends itself towards my belief that you are attempting to spin WIFOM early on as I've already stated and explained.

Very happy with my vote.

I have a town agenda. Don't you think I helped to get interesting responses out of tokiyoh?

I don't really get your WIFOM concern. I could embrace any kind of behavior and still make you wonder if I might be scum.

[ibaesha]

One question: If you were town, why would you want to embrace any behavior that would make others wonder if you might be scum?

[Kelly Chen]

I'm trying to have a good time.

Especially at the beginning of the game, when nothing is going down...

[Bacde]

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

[Yosarian2]

I didn't think it was pointless...

...but you're not on it, either. I've got to say your behavior hasn't made much sense to me so far this game.

I think it's pretty clear I had no problem with this bandwagon.

I don't think tokiyoh's responses have been that great. He's a bit defensive.

I'm a little concerned that I've made myself an easy target. I think I've been helpful, though.

Ibby, you should be like me and

vote: MOS

if you want off of tokiyoh. MOS is supposed to have told us who the scum are by now.

...

I still don't get it. If you really thought tokiyoh's reaction was over-defensive and suspicious, why weren't you voting for him? Why aren't you voting for him now? Why push the bandwagon but not join it on day 1? And why support another bandwagon now? Why MOS, anyway?

[Yosarian2]

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

Any specific reason for that, guy?

[nonny]

okay hmm yeah i need to get caught up....but yeah i are alive just havn't read everything yet!

[mikanoff]

Unvote
Vote: Kelly Chen

I have never understood very well her reasons to suspect of Tokiyoh. And now, her behaviour is very strange and scummy. Why do you vote MOS now?

[Kelly Chen]

...

I still don't get it. If you really thought tokiyoh's reaction was over-defensive and suspicious, why weren't you voting for him? Why aren't you voting for him now? Why push the bandwagon but not join it on day 1? And why support another bandwagon now? Why MOS, anyway?

1. It makes no difference, I could easily have been voting him
2. I didn't think his responses were terrible, even if I don't agree with ibaesha's characterization of his responses as under-defensive.
3. It makes no difference
4. Why not? A lot of people aren't talking. We can't very well lynch someone until this gets fixed.
5. Due to your move from MOS to nonny, attached to a criticism of the tokiyoh bandwagon. Are MOS and nonny that different? I was a little skeptical.

[Yosarian2]

1. It makes no difference, I could easily have been voting him
2. I didn't think his responses were terrible, even if I don't agree with ibaesha's characterization of his responses as under-defensive.

It just seems odd to me; right now, it feels like you're trying to have it both ways on the wagon, to both support it and be able to say "Oh, I'm not a part of it", which can be a scum tell. And now feels like you're going back on fourth now even on if he's been overly defensive or not.

5. Due to your move from MOS to nonny, attached to a criticism of the tokiyoh bandwagon. Are MOS and nonny that different? I was a little skeptical.

Actually, no, not really. I was just looking for a lurker to vote for, but yeah, now that I look at it you are correct, MOS has been just as bad of a lurker so far this game, and we should also put pressure on him to post some content. If Nonny starts posting content (and a "I haven't read everything yet" post when there's only 4 pages does not cut it for me, at ALL), MOS wouldn't be a bad lurker to pressure next.

[al_kohaulec]

I didn't think it was pointless...

...but you're not on it, either. I've got to say your behavior hasn't made much sense to me so far this game.

I think it's pretty clear I had no problem with this bandwagon.

I don't think tokiyoh's responses have been that great. He's a bit defensive.

I'm a little concerned that I've made myself an easy target. I think I've been helpful, though.

Ibby, you should be like me and

vote: MOS

if you want off of tokiyoh. MOS is supposed to have told us who the scum are by now.

...

I still don't get it. If you really thought tokiyoh's reaction was over-defensive and suspicious, why weren't you voting for him? Why aren't you voting for him now? Why push the bandwagon but not join it on day 1? And why support another bandwagon now? Why MOS, anyway?

Regarding Kelly, she said he was a little defensive, and she didn't say he was suspicious, but just that his responses weren't all that great. It is suspicious that she didn't vote for the bandwagon she was making, but she did post right after the vote count saying she was about to vote him, but he had what? 5 votes? This is still suspicious of her that she didn't vote him earlier on, but that's a good reason not to vote him at that point. You don't want to quicklynch somebody D1 before we even get into serious discussion.

You later comment still on her flip flopping between her saying he's overdefensive and underdefensive and such, but I'm not seeing where these discrepencies are at, and that's making you look suspicious in my eyes.

[Kelly Chen]

but she did post right after the vote count saying she was about to vote him, but he had what? 5 votes?

This was referring to MOS, not tokiyoh. The mod deleted a post saying that MOS was replaced.

[al_kohaulec]

but she did post right after the vote count saying she was about to vote him, but he had what? 5 votes?

This was referring to MOS, not tokiyoh. The mod deleted a post saying that MOS was replaced.

oh ok, that makes sense. So you had no intention of ever voting for tok?

[Patrick]

Kelly is acting rather odd, whether this translates to scummy I'm unsure of. Nobody else has particularly caught my eye. Toki I thought reacted pretty ok to the early wagon against him, and trying to say he's suspicious now is stretching it.

I'm happy to leave my vote on nonny for now until he says something.

[Bacde]

I'm gone till late July 30th. Yosarian, I'm watching you.

[Yosarian2]

You later comment still on her flip flopping between her saying he's overdefensive and underdefensive and such, but I'm not seeing where these discrepencies are at, and that's making you look suspicious in my eyes.

Well, this looked like...if not quite a flip-flop, like a direction change.

I didn't think it was pointless...

I don't think tokiyoh's responses have been that great. He's a bit defensive.

Here, she's defending the tokiyoh bandwagon, saying she dosn't think it was pointless, because she didn't like his responses and he was being a bit defensive.

Then, when I asked her why she wasn't voting for him if she thought that, she said this:

2. I didn't think his responses were terrible, even if I don't agree with ibaesha's characterization of his responses as under-defensive.

I understand that in the strictest sense, it dosn't quite contradict the earlier statement, as she could say "well, i didn't think his responses were great, but they're not terrible either." However, it does seem like when asked why she wasn't voting for him ,she said "Well, his responses weren't terrible", and yet when she wanted to support the bandwagon without being on it, the reason she gave was "his responses aren't great". That looks to me like she's trying to have it both way.

Honestly, I'm still more confused by Kelly's behavior then suspicicous of it, which is why I'm not voting for her, at least not yet. However, I would like her to clarify herself more; for example, Kelly, which posts did you find "a bit defensive"?

[Yosarian2]

I'm gone till late July 30th. Yosarian, I'm watching you.

You do that.

[tokiyoh]

Votes have schattered quite a bit in the last day, can we get a vote count when possible? Thanks.

I haven't played with Kelly that much (actually i don't recall a Day 1 with her in), so i can't make a judgement about whether she was acting "strange". Since she didn't think my responses were that great, i'm here to answer if there's anything else she needs to ask. I don't consider her as being flip-floppy in my case, but Yos does have a point about pushing the wagon without being on it.


By the way, i just realized that i'll be out of town

from Aug 3rd to 7th

. If needed, which i suspect is probably the case, please replace me. But i'll be around before that date.

[Mastermind of Sin]

this is post 99.

Blame Rosso.