Mini 343: Donnie Darko 0:0:0:0 Game Over

[MeMe]

Fair warning: I'll hammer tomorrow if 1) no one's unvoted (obv) and 2) there's been no compelling reason not to.

[Save The Dragons]

*Hands MeMe the golden hammer of doom*

[chamber]

Before I die, my thoughts on the scum group after rereading a couple times are scum = anix meme & colonel. gl town.

[MeMe]

vote: chamber

[Sentinel99]

During the twilight, I would like to point something out to Ixnayonthehombre: I'm the one who said that chamber always plays like that in past games. Also, I wasn't so much defending chamber, as much as saying that I didn't think there was justification for a lynch of chamber.

[Scalebane]

Sentinel: I'm not trying to squabble, but what you just posted is just plain factually wrong.

Scumminess isn't definite. What some call scummy others barely notice. It really helps to play or read several games in which others are involved to get a good read on them. Especially if its an old game, and you can tell definately the player's alignment. It helps you to pick up on their individual habits.

The thing is, looking at past games that chamber has played (and there aren't many where he's scum) this doesn't look like how he plays a townie. If you go back and look at some of the other minis he's played (mini 288 and 262) where Chamber is a townie, he's not *nearly* this aggressive. Although, there aren't any examples of him getting into such a "clash of ideas" before, so I guess that might swing things a bit on why he seems to be playing pretty differently than in any of the games I went back and read.

You've really contributed relatively little thus far into the game.

[nonny]

VOTE COUNT
MeMe(1): Chamber
Chamber(7): Save the dragons, Der Hammer, Scalebane, Colonel Kurtz, olio, EmpTyger, MeMe
Sotty7(1): BrizzyBoi
Colonel Kurtz(1): Sotty7

Not Voting: AniX, Sentinel99

And that's a lynch.

You all roit after Chamber, chasing him down till you can hang him up for a lynch. Hopeing he is the evil you are after. Sadly no....Chamber was Samantha Darko, townie.

NIGHT get those choices in!

[nonny]

The sunrises and you are all off to your daily duties, you turn on the tv to see the middlesex news at 9am. Turns out the new girl in town is found dead in the middle of a back road. Gretchen Ross (Colonel Kurtz) is dead, from the wounds on her most likly done by someone she knew, someone who had it out for her perhaps?

Colonel Kurtz (gretchen ross, roleblocker) dead

Carry on with the day, 6 to lynch. Come on you resident of middlesex rid yourselves of this evil!

[Chess83]

wow, okay I am here as a replacement. I have to say I was going to vote for Chamber also, he looked way to guilty. Not to bandwagon, but I really honestly thought you guys had a scummie there. I am going to read some posts again and post later on my findings.

[Scalebane]

Chess is replacing Brizzy Boi (I say this because I was about to ask, then got unstupid and checked the first post)

Anyways, from reading back over the game, the only person who really seemed to have it out for Kurtz was Chamber.

Sotty7, however, was somewhat interested in Kurtz so IGMEOY.

The only other person who even mentioned him in any posts was MeMe. I'm not quite sure what other information can be gained from trying to figure out motivations for killing Kurtz, as he just wasn't a high profile player.

It does interest me to note that Nonny's post mentions that it looks like Gretchen was killed by someone that she knew. From the movie, this would seem to narrow the possible murderers to Donnie Darko, Mrs. Pomeroy (the teacher played by Drew Barrymore) and the school bully (don't remember his name, she "knew" him but really didn't like him). Very unlikely but also possible, IMO, is her dad. I'd frankly be floored if he's in this game, and he'd very likely be an SK. On that note, I'd be suspicious of anyone claiming any of the first 3 described roles and extremely doubtful of the intelligence of anyone claiming to be Gretchen's dad. My personal suspicion is that it was probably the school bully (revenge for her rejecting him, etc.), but none of the first 3 roles would surprise me. Perhaps the bully and his gang are the mafia? Dunno.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not sure how someone can tell if a murder was done by somebody the murderer knew, just by wounds. My guess would be that because middlesex didn't seem to be a big town, people probably got to know each other.

I kinda wanna see what happens if I

Vote: Anix

[Scalebane]

Gretchen Ross, however, had moved into town quite recently in the witness protection program. I might be reading too much into Nonny's post, though.

[MeMe]

I'm rather interested in Sentinel99. His twilight post read as "everyone remember --

I

didn't vote chamber!" And, as Scalebane pointed out, his posts don't support his claim that he's "the one who" pointed out chamber's past game habits.

[Chess83]

I'm not sure how someone can tell if a murder was done by somebody the murderer knew, just by wounds. My guess would be that because middlesex didn't seem to be a big town, people probably got to know each other.

I kinda wanna see what happens if I

Vote: Anix

Save The Dragons, [STD! sorry couldn't help myself] one could surmise that theory based on there not being any signs of a struggle. If the wounds looked sudden but the victim not having skin under the nail, pulled hair, brusies, etc. Signs of a fight or struggle equate to a sense of discomfort when the attacker first made his/her move.

[MeMe]

Another interpretation that just came to me: CK and Scalebane know each other in real life, though 1) I have no idea if nonny's aware of that and 2) outside-of-game information

probably

wouldn't be used as flavor text.

Thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

[Chess83]

WARNING: LONG POST

I promised my thoughts thus far and I deliever...

I became suspicious of Save The Dragons when he never let up off of Chamber and pretty much led the charge against him. Chamber was posting coherent logic, STD simple was clouding it and people were listening to STD instead of re-reading Chamber’s posts and thinking about them. STD led the town into lynching a townie. For whatever reason, it looks like possibly to protect a possible partner, MeMe. Or maybe STD saw an chance to get a townie lynched and was not protecting his partner. But his partner came back in later… Scalebane. [throwing it out there for you guys to chew on].

As a recap…
Post #15

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

Her response “Prove it.” (Post 16, made 4 mins after chamber)

MeMe posts a list of questions in post 17, chamber answers them in 19

chamber: I'll pose a couple questions since you've apparently got no answer for my challenge (and, to be fair, I know it's impossible to prove your blanket statement "lurker hunting is unproductive" -- just thought I'd try to make you stand behind your words): --If I'd simply switched my vote to AniX without saying why I was doing so or by saying "bandwagon" -- would that have made you hurry to vote me? --If I'd voted Der Hammer (who currently has no votes) with the same "yet to post" reason -- would that have made you hurry to vote me? In other words, is the fact that it's AniX that bothered you? Or the number of votes? Or, truly, the "lurker hunting" as stated? --Do you consider AniX a lurker at this point in the game? (For the record: I don't) --Do you think that a player who does something you deem "unproductive" is somehow more likely to be scum? --Do you think that simply waiting for everyone to post once while NO ONE posts a second time (as was the case before my vote change) is a better idea (or more productive) than making something happen?

Thats a lot of questions to answer, out of respect I won't ignroe them this time, but don't expect such at future times.

1 no, I would note you switched without stating a reason for future analysis but not vote you immediately.
2 yes, Its the lurker hunting reason that bothered me, you tried to right off your vote with a commonly accepted tactic.
3 This early in the game I wouldn’t really consider him a lurker, but hunting player who have yet to post is as unproductive imo.
4 Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.
5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

chamber pretty much answers the questions here. However, he makes it clear that he is not calling unproductivity scummy, but the motive she gave for her vote scummy. At this point I disagreed with chamber on his call of MeMe being scum, he claims this in answer 5.

MeMe responds in the next post,

you just ousted yourself as scum in the process

Do you really believe this? Because it kinda looks like a "bs reason" for your vote.

Basically she calls him out on his claim, as I would have done. It was a bad claim for chamber to make. As a result a small argument ensues concerning his claim on MeMe.
Then in post 26, STD jumps in the conversation, clouding things up.

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

Unproductivity = scummy?

5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

Productivity = scummy?

How is this not clear STD? Did you not read his entire posts? It was not the action itself that was scummy it was her reason for the action! Chamber points this out in post 31.

Der Hammer votes for chamber. In 27. This makes 2 votes, as STD already had his random vote on chamber. In post 33, Scalebane votes chamber because he is not making sense. STD’s plan is working, a bandwagon is forming.

In post 35

Chamber: Honestly, you aren't making much sense. Sorry to tell you that. I think there are a lot of other people in this game who will agree with me. Vote: Chamber

Is he not making sense because his last post was a little grabled? Or because you don't agree with the angle he took with Meme?

Unvote: Anix

right after that in post 36

Well, I do not like people who can not type well, but that is something I normally try to keep out of my lynch decisions.

I think his logic is poor, his ability to reason is poor and he seems ready to attack people for things that are in the benefit of the town. That is the reason for my vote.

So STD’s plan is now reinforced by scalebane’s own confusion. In 38 Sotty7 voices her disagreement on Scalebane’s call of bad logic. But suggests the possibility of a clash of play styles.

Maybe Scalebane was not confused but caught on to what his partner was doing… [possible partner]

(just to get my position straight and out there) I think "lurker" hunting (lurker being used in a fairly loose sense there) in the early game is productive, and I haven't agreed with any of Chamber's logic so far. The fact that it happened to be a clash between MeMe and Chamber instead of *me* and chamber is that MeMe happens to be a little more active and vocal (or happened to be, RIP). I just plain don't agree with him. hence the vote.

Chamber's logic, roughly seems to me to be:
MeMe decided to switch votes because she's really scum but she tried to hide her scumminess by claiming it was a common early game tactic to try and get people to at least post by voting them (which it *is*)

Occam would argue:
MeMe switched votes in order to try and get Anix to post, and claimed it was a common early game tactic *because it is a common early game tactic*

Does the former not sound like an attempt at a bandwagon to anyone else?

It does not to me, and frankly I don’t remember this being posted by chamber. It was actually posted by MeMe… Behold post 17!

If I'd simply switched my vote to AniX without saying why I was doing so or by saying "bandwagon" -- would that have made you hurry to vote me?

In fact chamber never mentions the word bandwagon on this thread up to this point. However, it seems that you are trying desperately to convince the town that chamber is guilty of being the mafia, without mentioning so.

Now STD gets back involved. Post 41

Save The Dragons wrote:

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive
<<Snips and pieces>> In the same psot as your second qoute I said it wasnt that she was doing something unproductive, but that she was usign it as an excuse to vote, I found that scummy.

I see that. I also see a word in red, and unless I'm mistaken, you are accusing her of being unproductive by saying lurking hunting, which I can only assume to be your interpretations of her actions, is unproductive. You've confused me.

3 This early in the game I wouldn’t really consider him a lurker, but hunting player who have yet to post is as unproductive imo. 4 Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.

In response to question 3 you say that she is doing something unproductive.
Then in question 4 you say that she isn't doing something unproductive.

Either I'm just completely dumb and can't see what's wrong when it's right in front of me, or your the one ignoring some of what you've said.

By the way, I'm gone from Saturday to Saturday, I don't know if that's going to be a problem or not, but day has just started.

He is saying her actions are unproductive, but her reason for the actions are scummie.
I don’t think you are completely dumb, if you are mafia. If you are a townie, then you are. Because you are chasing him for no reason. How can you not see this? He says that lurker hunting early is unproductive. [this is the point where I don’t think MeMe is scum] Then in 4 he says her unproductivity is not what he was going for her, it was her lack of a solid reason for her actions. [Note: Scalebane is backing STD in this disagreement a lot, the first two on chamber, backing an argument based on a misconception.]
In 43 Colonel Kurtz comes on board and votes Chamber. Stating the Occam quote did it for him.

From here it just gets ugly. All people pretty much begin to jump onto chamber, and he slowly descends closer to the gallows
On page 3 it seems that the intelligent thing to do would be reexamine the facts.
1) a disagreement (probably based on play style) erupts between Chamber and MeMe.
2) STD calls it bad logic and begins hunting chamber.
3) Scalebane soon follows continuing STD’s claim of bad logic and clouded facts.
4) Chamber never makes a mistake under the pressure, sure he does answer all the questions, but EVERYONE IS ASKING THEM! It is kinda difficult to get them all answered. I am reading this and I have to make notes in a Word document about questions and answers just to keep it clear for myself and I am not even under the gun!

In post 81 Colonel realizes how close he placed Chamber to a hammer vote. He unvotes and calls for a claim from chamber.
In post 82 EmpTyger calls for Colonel to elaborate on his reasons for unvoting and calling for a claim.

In 86 EmpTyger gets what he wanted.

just thought that the post I quoted implied that chamber was more pro town than others who are pro-town. I might be misinterpreting, but I think that it implies that he is Donnie Darko. I am not saying that I believe that he is definitely pro town, but I think that that post was his attempt at a flavor claim. Therefore, I wish to hear more from him, claimwise, if I am to help lynch him. I am not, I repeat, not, saying that I believe he is pro town, but I think that is what he was trying to say. I don't see how anything I said was a "slip".
I would also like to say that I am not assuming anything, I just want to hear chamber claim. That's it.

He does not believe chamber is pro-town but wants to hear his claim.

In 87 chamber foolishly refuses to claim, but does say that he is defiantly not Donnie Darko.

Sotty7 points out the Chamber wagon in 88 and points to EmpTyger and Olio for voting with little reasoning. Espically considering that the argument was with MeMe.
Well done Sotty7; However you fail to mention the first person to jump into the argument. Save The Dragons who was followed by ScaleBane

Hombre [we keep bumping into each other] in post 89 makes a recap of how he views the people in the town. Nicely done.

The rest of the posts are bickering about who chamber thinks is scum, worthless in my opinion. I personally still wanted a claim from him and agree with those who called for it. It is the wise thing to do. Claim if you are under the gun, it can’t hurt you, unless you are dumb enough to claim mafia.

At post 100, MeMe announces that she will hammer the next day if nobody else does or if there is not a good enough reason not to. I found it amazing that MeMe had not voted for Chamber yet, this was a compelling reason for me to believe that she is not scum.

MeMe drops the hammer vote, a small spat between Sent and Scale flares up, then Nonny announces the verdict. We awake to find CK is dead. This was kind of a surprise to me and frankly I did not catch this until now.

3:30 exactly after Nonny announces the death of CK, Scale posts (109)a great recap of who may have had it out for him. This is convient as he INGORES the charge that STD led on chamber and he seconded and followed!
[yeah sorry I should have noted that I replaced Boi]

in post 110, STD votes for Anix for seemily private reasons.

In 112 MeMe writes on the interest she has about the Sentinel99 and ScaleBane spat.

Well, I warned you this was a long one.
Sorry for it being so long, but I think this charge of Chamber was just to big of a deal to push aside and not take a second look at, seriously this argument bascially took up day 1 and 4 pages of posting. I think it deserves another look now that we know the truth of chamber's alignment. Also I think the fact that STD and Scalebane both avoided it once it was public knowledge that chamber was a townie is more evidence that they are scum. STD for getting in an agrument that was not his, not even based on good grounds and then leading a charge to the gallows with chamber held high and Scalebane for so quickly suggesting possible avenues for links with CK's tragic murder. What if it was the mafia framing them? Personally I would have been more afraid of the people who lead the charge on chamber than someone who was suspicious of me. Suspicion is one thing but the ability to lead the town to kill someone for a stupid little reason like chamber's is a power to be reckoned with. (granted he did no help matters by not role claiming.)

I urge all Townies to really look into this and think about it for yourself. If you decide that it was simply a mistake and STD was not acting scummie for jumping in there and leading a charge [which I do think he is scum] then post saying such. However, I believe STD is scum and he played the town like a fiddle. His partner is likely to be either Scalebane [most likely] or MeMe [possible but not as likely in my mind as scalebane.

It is for this reason that I

VOTE: SAVE THE DRAGONS

.

[Sotty7]

Sotty7, however, was somewhat interested in Kurtz so IGMEOY.

One question...why would I kill of somebody who I said in thread could be scum? Especially when I was the only person to vote them?

OK, I read though the big post by Chess83 and it shows that I really need to go back and re-read for myself before I start forming any solid opinions about what happened yesterday. I'll be checking back in with something more substantial hopefully by the end of the day if not tomorrow.

[Scalebane]

I don't think anyone knew that I know CK in real life, because nobody knows that CK is UntrodTripod, or that I knew CK/UT in real life. Except for people who play BSW. Except, now, everybody reading this thread. :waves to UT/CK:. (if you're mad at me, keep it to real life please.)

The reason I made my post earlier is because I was simply trying to recap who had, in any way, interacted with Kurtz in Day 1. I know I didn't try and follow leads on the chamber lynch. That was because I was trying to recap who had interacted with kurtz. I know that there is plenty of information to be gained from rereading day 1. But there is also information to be gained from analyzing night kills, and that's what I was trying to do when reviewing the stuff with kurtz.

Why would I have brought up the fact that STD (and then seconded by me) led the lynch on chamber when trying to figure out who would've wanted to off Kurtz? How would that have made any sense?

Sotty7: I'm watching you simply because you were one of the few people who even mentioned Kurtz. Honestly, I simply did a thread search for whose posts his name even showed up in, and it was quite a short list. And the answer to your question is obvious: You might have killed CK even though you implied that he was scum and you were the only person to vote him because those facts provide the perfect cover for your own actions by providing you with the ability to claim that it would be really stupid for you to kill him in the light of the fact that you implied that you thought he was scum and that you were the only person to vote him. So your argument doesn't really help you all that much. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm simply saying that I'm watching you because you were one of ... 3 or so people who even mentioned him and he turned up dead today. That's enough reason to note and pay closer attention to you in my mind. And I think MeMe's mention was simply in a list, which is why I said that IGMEOY and not on her. Even though, I suppose, I do have two eyes.

I'll try to reply to what Chess has said about Day 1 and my involvement in it.

I said it wasnt that she was doing something unproductive, but that she was usign it as an excuse to vote, I found that scummy.

4 Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.

Chamber's logic, roughly seems to me to be:
MeMe decided to switch votes because she's really scum but she tried to hide her scumminess by claiming it was a common early game tactic to try and get people to at least post by voting them (which it *is*)

As far as I can tell, your issue is with my placing MeMe's words in Chamber's mouth. Well, there it is, straight from Chamber's own posts. It's that MeMe and I both interpreted Chamber's posts the same way and it's *you* who (with the knowledge of Chamber's innocence) wants to read his play as perfect and pro-town and simply look for people twisting his words. Chamber says pretty much exactly what I said he did: MeMe voted Anix because she's scum and used a "bs reason" to cover her vote. It's right there in the stuff I quoted.

I'm not going to argue that Chamber wasn't actually innocent when he posted the stuff that he did yesterday because that's obviously false. However, I am going to simply point out that if you try and analyze day 1 by thinking of chamber as innocent and gauging everyone's reactions based on that, you're going to end up with information, but of a very distorted sort, because Chamber simply didn't act like town (or like he acts when town in other games that he's played.) He refused to claim, even when it was explained to him why he should claim in very clear terms. Instead of trying to keep himself from getting lynched, he simply became resigned to his own demise (which is a huge mistake if you're town.) He also didn't seem to want to actually think. He simply kept on OMGUS'ing anyone who even looked at him funny. And it's the distortion that comes from viewing his behavior as pure innocence day 1 that leads to some of the slightly weird stuff you said in your huge post.

And if you want to know why I think chamber acted the way he did day 1, it's because of his ... youth (I'm guessing). It shows up in his typing and very clearly it showed up in the stupid grudge that got him lynched that he held against MeMe. It started when she argued with him over mafia theory, doing so from the position of someone who has played a lot more mafia and he seemed to just end up frustrated by her outright rejection of his assertion that voting people who have posted is unproductive.

Just so you don't get confused, Chess, this is simply an analysis and response to what has been posted so far today, also touching on necessary topics regarding chamber's play in day 1. I'm not trying to ignore the issue of trying to reread day 1 for leads as I think that's the only place available at the moment from which to figure out today's lynch. Just because I don't touch on them in this post, I'm not ignoring those issues or deliberately running from them or anything. I'll address them after some more reading. But I don' t think this post needs two or three more paragraphs on the subject of day 1.

[Chess83]

Scale, how did chamber say he was going after Meme for changing her vote? That is my point. He never did. He began going after her for "luker hunting" voting for a player that was not being active (I don't think it is lurking and I think he was wrong for it.) I said in my post that chamber's lynching was in part of his own stubborness, espically with the no claim thing.

Also for your information I read the posts from D1 not knowing the result of the lynching, or even who was lynched. I thought there was something wrong then, I went back with the knowledge of his innocence and looked at who led the charge. It was STD. With you following. I am not accusing everybody nor am I disreguarding the night kill, as you can tell in my last post. I am accusing you and primarily STD as I feel incredibly strongly that you two are in fact mafia. Him more so than you. But I encouraged the other townpeople to re-read the posts of d1 and form their on conclusions concerning you two's innocence/guilt.

[Save The Dragons]

Save The Dragons, [STD! sorry couldn't help myself]

Go ahead, call me STD.

one could surmise that theory based on there not being any signs of a struggle. If the wounds looked sudden but the victim not having skin under the nail, pulled hair, brusies, etc. Signs of a fight or struggle equate to a sense of discomfort when the attacker first made his/her move.

True, but I'm not going to sit back and die just because my friend or family is trying to kill me.

Chamber was posting coherent logic,

Prove it.

For whatever reason, it looks like possibly to protect a possible partner, MeMe. Or maybe STD saw an chance to get a townie lynched and was not protecting his partner.

Or maybe I was voting for a player who I believed couldn't possibly be town.

Then in post 26, STD jumps in the conversation, clouding things up.

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

Unproductivity = scummy?

5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

Productivity = scummy?

How is this not clear STD? Did you not read his entire posts? It was not the action itself that was scummy it was her reason for the action! Chamber points this out in post 31.

I am not concerned with her actions at all. He states that something unproductive is scummy, and later he implies that productivity is good, but it's also a scumtell.

STD’s plan is working, a bandwagon is forming.

I'M AN EVIL MASTERMIND!

So STD’s plan is now reinforced by scalebane’s own confusion.

To reiterate, I'm a cold blooded killer who methodically plots the destruction of the town. Please! Arrest me for first degree murder! But I'll take death off the table cuz I'll roll on my buddies.

Maybe Scalebane was not confused but caught on to what his partner was doing… [possible partner]

Possible partner indeed. I'm not mafia.

Now STD gets back involved. Post 41

I like getting involved.

He is saying her actions are unproductive, but her reason for the actions are scummie.
I don’t think you are completely dumb, if you are mafia. If you are a townie, then you are.

Ducne cap me

Because you are chasing him for no reason.

I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

How can you not see this? He says that lurker hunting early is unproductive. [this is the point where I don’t think MeMe is scum] Then in 4 he says her unproductivity is not what he was going for her, it was her lack of a solid reason for her actions.

Then why would you say "lurker hunting is unproductive" in the same sentance as a vote if that's not what you meant?

3:30 exactly after Nonny announces the death of CK, Scale posts (109)a great recap of who may have had it out for him. This is convient as he INGORES the charge that STD led on chamber and he seconded and followed!

Are you seriously saying that Scalebane should have accused both myself and himself of being scum because chamber got killed? Dude. It sucks that chamber got killed, but you can't get them everytime and you can't just go after everyone on a wagon just because 7 townies thought it was alright to kill chamber for his actions.

in post 110, STD votes for Anix for seemily private reasons.

Not true. I stated clearly why I voted Anix.

Also I think the fact that STD and Scalebane both avoided it once it was public knowledge that chamber was a townie is more evidence that they are scum.

You're right. I'm sorry. I totally should have accused myself of being scum because chamber turned out to be town. Ok. STD, you've got to be scum.

Vote: STD

No.

Unvote

What else am I supposed to say? I could say it was tragic and all that, but that would pretty much be a waste of time, since it's obvious that it's tragic, it's obvious we killed a townie, and I'm sorry that I though from the begining we had scum.

STD for getting in an agrument that was not his, not even based on good grounds and then leading a charge to the gallows with chamber held high and Scalebane for so quickly suggesting possible avenues for links with CK's tragic murder.

First, I didn't get into the argument, and second, if I think there was scum in the argument, I'm not going to ignore it and wait for it to play out before I start reading thier posts again.

What if it was the mafia framing them? Personally I would have been more afraid of the people who lead the charge on chamber than someone who was suspicious of me. Suspicion is one thing but the ability to lead the town to kill someone for a stupid little reason like chamber's is a power to be reckoned with. (granted he did no help matters by not role claiming.)

Thank you for saying I have such a power, I'm flattered. However, I don't see the relevence to town or scum, as such an ability could easily be utilized by both sides, for good intentions, or for evil ones.

I urge all Townies to really look into this and think about it for yourself. If you decide that it was simply a mistake and STD was not acting scummie for jumping in there and leading a charge [which I do think he is scum] then post saying such.

I like that one.

However, I believe STD is scum and he played the town like a fiddle. His partner is likely to be either Scalebane [most likely] or MeMe [possible but not as likely in my mind as scalebane.

Not true. If I played the town, I'd play them like a guitar. *rocks out*

[EmpTyger]

Deliberately lurking. I believe I’ve caught a tell, and I’m not sure how to best play it, and want to analyze more before I act.

[Ixnayonthehombre]

As for the nightkill, even if we come to an agreed inference of who the killer was, who would actually claim that person?

Hombre [we keep bumping into each other]

Heh, yeah what is this our third game in a row?

Chamber never makes a mistake under the pressure

Chamber was posting coherent logic

Were you reading the same game as I was? If you read the game without the knowledge of chamber being a townie, then it's pretty hard to tell that he was pro-town...he certainly didn't act like it...we can quote some(many) times when chamber was being (what we thought was) scummy.

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

Unproductivity = scummy?

5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

Productivity = scummy?

How is this not clear STD? Did you not read his entire posts? It was not the action itself that was scummy it was her reason for the action! Chamber points this out in post 31.

'It was not the action itself that was scummy' But keep in mind thats hard to tell when he posts a one-line post with a vote, then the justification(lurker hunting is unproductive). If you read the post when he awnsers MeMe's questions, he contradicts himself many times...STD just caught on that.

How can you not see this? He says that lurker hunting early is unproductive. [this is the point where I don’t think MeMe is scum] Then in 4 he says her unproductivity is not what he was going for her, it was her lack of a solid reason for her actions.

The reason for her actions was to get lurkers to post. Chamber thought that lurker hunting was unproductive, then when called out upon it, he changed his opinion on it. If lurker hunting is unproductive, then why does someone need a good reason for it? MeMe had a good reason for what I thought was productive.

I think it deserves another look now that we know the truth of chamber's alignment.

Yes, but you need to keep in mind what we thought when we didn't know chamber's alignment. Read it from the view of any protown player who didn't know that chamber was town.

However, I believe STD is scum and he played the town like a fiddle.

Keep in mind that the lynch of a townie is the fault of those who accused him of being scum and/or voted him(myself included), the person who led the charge(quite possibly STD), and chamber himself.
STD, for a post as long as yours is, you'd think that it would have more actual defence in it. There was a bit, but most of what you did was just make jokes at the accusations against you.
AniX, however, seemed cooly opposed to the entire argument dealing with chamber. Now that he turns out a townie, that might mean something(that he was trying to stay away from suspicion when chamber would be discovered as a townie, or maybe he doesn't like participating.) He still only has a single digit number of posts(although it's not my place to accuse, since I only have 2).

[Chess83]

STD, you made more jokes than responses, as a counted tally of your responses will show. The Fluff is just to keep track of the silly things that I wrote to which he was responding, they are not in question. However, the fact that there were 2x as many jokes as there was defense is a bad play, regardless of alignment. It is unproductive and it does, frankly, in my opinion make it seem like you are dodging the questions and thus are scum. Since you would dodge the question to either buy time or hope that it is passed over and forgotten.

ACTUALY DEFENSE
5
JOKES
10
FLUFF
3

I am going to try and quote as little as possible.

I made the statement that Chamber’s logic is coherent logic, did you read the whole thing? Or just that line? You responded prove it, prove otherwise, good logic is just that, logic which cannot be disproved; therefore the burden rest on you to prove his argument was fallacious.

Then in post 26, STD jumps in the conversation, clouding things up.

Unvote vote : meme lurker hunting is unproductive

Unproductivity = scummy?

5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.
[

Productivity = scummy?

How is this not clear STD? Did you not read his entire posts? It was not the action itself that was scummy it was her reason for the action! Chamber points this out in post 31.

I am not concerned with her actions at all. He states that something unproductive is scummy, and later he implies that productivity is good, but it's also a scumtell.

USE THE ENTIRE ENTRY!

Here is the actual entry in question where chamber supposedly contradicts himself.

chamber: I'll pose a couple questions since you've apparently got no answer for my challenge (and, to be fair, I know it's impossible to prove your blanket statement "lurker hunting is unproductive" -- just thought I'd try to make you stand behind your words):

--If I'd simply switched my vote to AniX without saying why I was doing so or by saying "bandwagon" -- would that have made you hurry to vote me?
--If I'd voted Der Hammer (who currently has no votes) with the same "yet to post" reason -- would that have made you hurry to vote me? In other words, is the fact that it's AniX that bothered you? Or the number of votes? Or, truly, the "lurker hunting" as stated?
--Do you consider AniX a lurker at this point in the game? (For the record: I don't)
--Do you think that a player who does something you deem "unproductive" is somehow more likely to be scum?
--Do you think that simply waiting for everyone to post once while NO ONE posts a second time (as was the case before my vote change) is a better idea (or more productive) than making something happen?

Thats a lot of questions to answer, out of respect I won't ignroe them this time, but don't expect such at future times.

1 no, I would note you switched without stating a reason for future analysis but not vote you immediately.
2 yes, Its the lurker hunting reason that bothered me, you tried to right off your vote with a commonly accepted tactic.
3 This early in the game I wouldn’t really consider him a lurker, but hunting player who have yet to post is as unproductive imo.
4 Its no that you were doing something that was unproductive, but that you covered your vote with a bs reason.
5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

Notice that he is answering two different questions?
The first is the question of unproductive=scum, he says that is not true. Within this answer he writes that he voted because he felt she had a BS reason.
The next answer was to the question of basically productivity=good? His answer is echos the above answer, again...

5 Making things happen is fine, you just ousted yourself as scum in the process, good for the town, bad for you. I encourage your fellow scum to make the same mistake.

He could have been more clear but what I think he was saying is that the productivity is not what was in question, it was her reason for voting, trying to get someone to participate (once again, I disagree with his actions... I think it was not intelliegent to call someone on this that early in the game.

Looking at the whole entries this becomes clear, but looking at only one line from each it is clouded and confusing.

Because you are chasing him for no reason.


I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

so what are the reasons?
Again,

in post 110, STD votes for Anix for seemily private reasons.

Not true. I stated clearly why I voted Anix.

Then why not state them in the form of a quote, instead of making me write concerning this again... once again it seems like a dodge.

This one seems the most idiotic response to me...

What if it was the mafia framing them? Personally I would have been more afraid of the people who lead the charge on chamber than someone who was suspicious of me. Suspicion is one thing but the ability to lead the town to kill someone for a stupid little reason like chamber's is a power to be reckoned with. (granted he did no help matters by not role claiming.)

Thank you for saying I have such a power, I'm flattered. However, I don't see the relevence to town or scum, as such an ability could easily be utilized by both sides, for good intentions, or for evil ones.

To make it clear I am suggesting that Scale was framing the people he posted about early in d2. Along those line I was saying that if it Scale and STD are not the mafia, I would think the mafia would kill them as they would be a great benefit to the town, give them a thread and they will make a noose to hang you with the entire town behind them. Also, STD is correct, having the ability to lead the town like that is a good thing for either side, but we must look at where that leading got us and whom they are leading us to now. Scale already made a suggestion on possible links for the night kill.

In my book, poor logic and failing to claim are not enough to hang someone. There must be better grounds. I posted that I thought he was mafia, that is true. However, I also said that we needed more evidence. I know looking back with the knowledge that chamber is innocent can turn alot of fingers on many people. I have been accused of accusing all bandwagoners... ONCE AGAIN I WRITE THAT I AM ACCUSING TWO PEOPLE! Not 7, two. Those two people are accusing me of accusing all 7. Does that look like an attempt to blend in? Once again I urge all townspeople to make their own decisions and read the entire posts that are being quoted. Also, quote as much of the post as you can [obvious exception to long posts] this will help maintain an element of clarity when hunting scum, we need clearity.

Hombre, I beleive it is our third game in a row togeather... also, what is with the number games you been playing with my name? Is there any reasoning behind that or you just forgot the numbers and said "what the heck, I will have some fun!" lol.

Yea I am reading the same posts, and I am seeing logic that is coherent. Maybe it is because I study philosophy and am used to looking for coherent logic in pages and pages of text that seem much like ramblings of a mad man, or maybe it is because I read all the posts a number of times and realized that some people [STD] were not posting the entire entry, either maliciously or unintentionaly.

In the 14th post MeMe puts a third vote on somebody? That does seem suspicious, possibly lurker hunting, but not really. chamber calls her a lurker hunter and votes for her, not needed in my opinion. He is voting for her because she was lurker hunting, something that happens to be unproductive [this early I agree with him that is it unproductive, possibly a scum tell, but most likly not.]

Go back and read just page one, clear your mind and read it. Does it seem like chamber is contradicting himself or is he saying that lurker hunting is a bs reason and unproductive? then read post 26, STD posts saying he is contradicting himself, does not quote the entire post mind you, just two lines, a technique called "card stacking" using only the information that is favorable to you and ingoring the rest.

Good point with Anix's posts, did not catch that.

Bottom line for me is that I beleive wholeheartedly that one scum has been found, possibly his partner also. If we have a cop, I ask them to check those two players tonight and tommrow night, that is if the town sees fit to deem them innocent.

I will post any more information regarding their guilt/innocence as I find it or in defense of my theory.

To those in question, specifically STD, please stop dodging the points, reply to them so that we may discover your true alighment. If you are town then you have nothing to fear by addressing the points. If you are scum then you are only lynching yourself eitherway. Also, while sarcasim and fluff are fun, lets keep the fluffly sarcastic responses to the fluffly sarcastic questions.

Again, sorry for the long post.

[Chess83]

For clearity I need to write a correction that I missed in the preview...

[quote="Chess83"

Because you are chasing him for no reason.


I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

so what are the reasons?
-------------------------
Should be

Because you are chasing him for no reason.

I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

so what are the reasons?

[Scalebane]

Chess: Quit putting words in my mouth. For gods sake.

Those two people are accusing me of accusing all 7.

No idea where you're getting that from.

Also:

I am suggesting that Scale was framing the people he posted about early in d2

You're accusing me of framing sotty because I said that he was the only person who mentioned Kurtz on day 1? What do you think IGMEOY means? That I think we should lynch him? Also, people implies plural. I've explained why I mentioned both Sotty and MeMe in quite clear terms. If you're going to keep accusing me of being mafia while only replying to STD's posts, please understand that I will have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.