NY 150: Mob Money Mafia GAME OVER

[Nachomamma8]

I'm giving you what you want and you decline it?
I think it was Oversoul who said it, we need to get rid of the neighbor distraction.
Pine has 2 votes, I have 7 now. Lynch me.

no, i'm a distracting for pushing such a horrible, terrible, unwarranted case on someone.
lynch me. i have 3 votes now.

[Nachomamma8]

unvote; vote: sly

I sincerely doubt Sly is scum.
It would be a lot easier if he were, but I doubt he is.

[mcqueen]

This game is going to set a new OMGUS record.

What are you talking about? You already set it.

[SlySly]

mcqueen, who am I or who have I been OMGUSing in this game? I'm sensing your next move is going to be for you to tell your mommy on me.

[T-Bone]

Vote Count

BBmolla - 2 (Twistedspoon, Kondi)
Nacho - 2 (SlySly, Nacho)
Pine - 1 (BBmolla)
Bunnylover - 5 (Oversoul, Pine, Mastin, Chkflip, Bunnylover)
SlySly - 3 (Knox, Mcqueen, Kise)


Not Voting - Projectmatt, Andycyca

With 15 Alive, it takes 8 to Lynch

Deadline is Thursday April 12th, 11:59pm EST

V/LA - Chkflip 4/7, Mcqueen - Monday

[Andycyca]

They'd

nightkill

the cop, over the neighbor.

I stand corrected

---

Vote: andy

And why is this? I see that you've since changed your vote, but I still want to know why

---

@Everyone: I also wouldn’t mind knowing who else was playing in the other thread and what their opinion on the mason soft claim accusations are? If it was 5 pages worth of discussion surely it would have been hard to miss.

I don't have any evidence that there are masons in this game and I prefer to play as if there aren't any. We won't have any real way of knowing that there are in fact Masons unless we reach endgame or they get killed.

---

(...)
I still don't like andy and Sly, and Sly's chainsaw of BB seems like Nacho is either being warmed up for later, or Sly is deflecting from BB because they're buddies. It's possible the doc didn't protect DG due to thinking Sly's harassment post-claim was some sort of counterclaim.

I'd end up hitting myself if I let andy off the hook, because I always drop the right suspect that gets away in endgame, and I don't feel my suspicion is wrong on him. I could do with voting Sly as well over his bad plays, but

seriously

think andy should be considered the ace card.

Thank you for stating your suspicion, but I think this is actually the first time you cast your suspicion and vote on me (and I assume you really think I'm scummier than everyone else, since you're calling me "the ace card". Is this assumption correct?)

---

I would like to hear from Andy, PM and Nacho too.

Welcome to the game! I'm right here if you have any questions... do you have any?

---

Alright, so these are just going to be random notes as I'm reading through the game.

(...)

- Something about Andycyca's #177 REALLY irks me. He told chkflip that he might be wrong in his vote on Damon, but he said differently of Sly. Still, there's something else about this post.

(...)

So if I had to say who was scum right now, it would be Sly, Overtoast, BB, Andy, and either mastin or Bunnylover. One of these could drop off depending on how many scum we have. I'm really feeling the Sly-Overtoast-BB team, though.

About #177: I didn't "told" chkflip anything, i asked him three questions: 1) whether he thought that both Lowell *and* DG were scum, 2) If his vote change from Lowell to DG was based merely on Damon's claim and/or if it was fueled by other unshared thoughts, and 3) whether he had pondered the consequences of lynching DG if his claim was correct. He told me to reread him, claiming all those answers had already been given.

On the other hand, I stated that I was also concerned with Damon's claim and that I didn't want him lynched D1

On the other other (3rd?) hand, why does this have any relevance today?

(...)

Same question, what did you lead you to suspect me?

---

A L-1 wagon on Bunny? Let's see my previous reads...

[knox]

Who replaced Alex? Because they're town. Reasoning being that the Mod refused to put their (and my) replacement on the OP, when that could be useful information for a scumbuddy.

Who did replace Alex? And can you please explain the reasoning again because I’m a little confused to what you’re saying.

- Pine townslipped in #354.

Sorry what’s a townslip?

Sorry that's a bit brief. i should really put some analysis of my own up rather than comment on those of other players but I've been hard pressed for time this Easter. apologies again

Do you have an analysis now?

What's a normal number of scum in a Large Normal? I've only played a few, so I don't know.

Would also like to know.

Now can you explain why you want to go back to the Bunny wabbit?

Because Pine v. BL is distracting as all hell and will not end until one of them is either lynched or killed and at this point I think it is safer to remove the distractions as early as possible to have an easier late game.
I agree that Andy needs to be looked at, but he can't really react to the pressure right now because of his LA status.

Why do you think Andy needs to be looked at?

I couldn’t find any post where bunny confirmed the pairing. In #17 and #134 bunny said he didn’t remember anyone soft claiming mason but remembered the discussion on the difference between neighbours and masons. Didn’t claim neighbour though.

Do you have a copy of the lost 20 pages of text from D1?

No I don’t think there is a copy. Think it was lost in the crash.

Pine had 1 vote, McQueen, maybe 2 from someone else. Where did this 8 votes come from?
Yeah I didn't want to go into a 1 v 1. I'm town, don't know his alignment. If I am wrong about his alignment then I know I will be lynched. Then the question of where my suspicion is coming from comes to mind. Do I think Pine is scum because he is tunneling me which is clouding my mind or is Pine scum because the way he is doing it comes from scum.
Dodging Pine attacks? What attacks? He hasn't said nothing new that hasn't already been stated so what am I dodging?
But I'm tried of wasting time on this.

Unvote
Vote:Bunnylover

Hey now, hold on there. No one likes a self-vote. We’ve got time until the deadline and there is quite a bit that can be discussed before then. No need to give up and try and end the day early. Come on now.

I would like to hear from Andy, PM and Nacho too.

Welcome to the game! I'm right here if you have any questions... do you have any?

Hey there thanks, I do. What are your current reads? What do you think about the Pine vs. Bunny neighbours quarrel?



And @ PM

Prod received. I should have informed you, sorry. I've been ill the past few days so it's been difficult to post.

Content today/tomorrow

Still waiting on the content!

[Pine]

Normal number of scum in a 17-player game is four.

"Townslipping" is a colloquial way of saying that a person did or said something, usually an error, that's very hard to fake, and clearly demonstrates a Town thought process. Several people are saying that when I figured for a scumteam of three, thinking it was a Mini Normal. Scum tend not to even think that way, as they already know the scumteam

[Pine]

I'd remember it and try to do it in my next scumgame, but that'd be really hard to do convincingly, and really easy to screw up

[SlySly]

Do you have a copy of the lost 20 pages of text from D1?

No I don’t think there is a copy. Think it was lost in the crash.

In the lost pages is where Bunny confirmed the pairing.

[Oversoul]

LA until Tuesday.

I'll my phone but that won't really make a difference.

[projectmatt]

I have never been so mad

I made a fairly long catch up post and i pushed the "X" button on google chrome by accident (which is what i did last time as well)

LET'S DO THIS AGAIN

I think I'm taking a break from the site after this game. Just not into it like I used to be.

Also, the current wagons suck.

We need to address this and start by going after Bunny lover again.

What do we get from that, as any alignment Bunny would flip? It lost steam and I'm more convinced Pine is just tunneling. Can you also explain why the wagons suck?

Townie tingles coming from Nacho too. I'm seeing some chainsawwing from Sly. Still ain't getting nothing from andy's post.

What do you need, matt?

Vote: andy

apathy in this post might make him town idk

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

Why

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

Nope. Pine tomorrow, depending on your flip. Sorry; thanks for playing.

Whatever, if we're lynching me let's decide it quickly so I can claim.

I too, love to awkwardly soft claim a PR when there's the threat of a lynch on me. Soft claim irks me the wrong way but I'll this go for now.

Sorry for my absent, a little hectic in my life atm.

Pine -

I forgot to ask, is it possible to paraphrase or quote things from the QT or is that against the guidelines? I can't find anything regarding it in the game rules. I think it would be a gigantic help if you could paraphrase some of the things Bunny said, but yeah

This is what I said summary (in case I'm not allowed to copy+paste):
I claimed I was not scum.
Wonder why Pine was so jumpy to start calling someone scum
I explained what would happen if we assume one of us is scum, saying that the QT will be pointless
Then said that I would like to have someone to reflect ideas off, then decided on his alignment.
Thats all I said.

he attacked you right away?

Post #465 by Kondi is an awkwardly formal and sincere side I have never seen from him. I've only seen him play laid back and not nearly as confident/analytic as he does now. I'll keep on eye on him, I guess.

Don't agree that someone scum.
Won't vote them, unless its deadline.
Point out why I don't agree with the reason people have presented to why they are scum.
Ask for clarification.
Conclusion?
Bunny must be scum with BBM.
Really?

Placation.

The only problem with scum doing that is not everyone believe in the Town v Scum neighbor in this situation, I think only 1 or 2 people agree with it. Therefore all they will gain is killing that person, the situation on the other person won't change.

Placation.

Pine - He's trying to do everything in his power to get me lynched based on meta. Wouldn't be so bad, but his whole case is based on meta which I just can't believe town would risk. But this may just be OMGUS, trying to figure out exactly what it is.

Placation.

This is the problem right here.
You got it so stuck in your head that someone has to be scum in the neighbor that you refuse to consider anything else.
Holding onto site meta is going to get you lynched, and if your town you need to stop.

Placation.

Because everyone following you right and I must be panicing?
You know with those 8 votes............ oh wait 2 votes on me?
Theres no helping you. You've dug your own grave.

Vote: Pine

Finally goes for a vote.

This is the FIRST TIME Bunny has placed a vote on Pine. Bunny has been dancing around the Pine-as-scum issue all of this time, until it comes to 8 votes on Pine and 2 votes on Bunny. This sort of action makes it seem like Bunny is afraid to get into a 1 v 1 with Pine unless support is overwhelmingly in Bunny's favor. Yes, Pine's case stems from idiocy. But it was good pressure at the time, and it resulted in Bunny doing nothing but attempting to dodge Pine's attacks. Notice how Bunny has commented on nothing else, save for how unsure he is about Pine. This is unacceptable. There are no attempts to scumhunt here AT ALL; with 30-something pages of game play, Bunny should have done a lot more than decide one null read.

Pine had 1 vote, McQueen, maybe 2 from someone else. Where did this 8 votes come from?
Yeah I didn't want to go into a 1 v 1. I'm town, don't know his alignment. If I am wrong about his alignment then I know I will be lynched. Then the question of where my suspicion is coming from comes to mind. Do I think Pine is scum because he is tunneling me which is clouding my mind or is Pine scum because the way he is doing it comes from scum.
Dodging Pine attacks? What attacks? He hasn't said nothing new that hasn't already been stated so what am I dodging?
But I'm tried of wasting time on this.

Unvote
Vote:Bunnylover

Come on BL, seriously?

Basically, Pine's case on Bunny Lover is unverifable awkward setup speculation that holds no water whatsoever and no, I can easily see both of them being town. (Although BL's self vote is just ..sigh). I would STRONGLY suggest not lynching Pine. BL is an OK wagon I guess but I wouldn't be surprised if he flips town and Pine is town as well.

BBmolla wagon should die, at least for today. No, really.

Twisted Spoon should stop coasting, it's really, really annoying and makes me want to second guess my town read on him.

I'll be honest when I say I don't see the case on SlySly very well.

BL is probably the best vote out of all of today's wagons and the probability of me jumping on it is very high but yeah

[BBmolla]

Why

Because Pine has just yelled how scummy BL has been while BL has actually seemed fairly town to me.

[knox]

Is the deadline tonight?

[Pine]

No. Deadline is Thursday

[mastin2]

Apologies for the copy-paste, but I honestly think that this game quite frankly needs it just as much, if not more:

So, I just changed my sig. Sure, I guess I could still be V/LA due to weather, but the season has mostly passed by, and I think that the space is far better used up to tell that message.

Basically, I was inspired by these threads, which made me realize something:

I originally kept on playing for the intellectual challenge. And on a related note, I've called myself the "Eternal Newbie", in that I never stop adapting, never stop changing, never stop trying something new, and am constantly evolving my play. Yet...

...Have I?

The last time I remember using logic was in Tough Guy Mafia as a hydra. Almost a year ago. Since then, I've used

reasoning

, sure, but not true, good, honest

logic

. I'm seen widely as irrational. And worse, I've stagnated. My play hasn't improved in months. Despite all my efforts to the contrary, where I do a few bold moves every once and a while, I really have sunk into mediocre play in all my games.

So, in an effort to change both problems, I'm going to try my best to change things up a bit. I think Part of the problem is "internalization", in that a lot of things I used to do manually (tone, motive, interaction, etc.), I've done so often that they're done automatically--to the point where I can't even tell what I'm doing, and am forced to call it gut. So I'm going to try and undo the damage that has happened, to remove the decay in my play.

And this game really could use a fresh perspective, in that I've seriously lost my touch with it.

It'll take a liiiittle bit of time in my QT (which I realized that as a whole, I do not use often--I can go days, even weeks without posting in them, whereas originally I posted almost every day), to sort things through.

But I think that when I'm finished, you'll see a new and improved mastin2.

I know, it's a little close to deadline for me to make a move like this, but I do think the payoff would be well worth it if I could actually make it work. Wish me luck; this is something which...well, I quite frankly have no clue if it'll do any good. But I have to try.

[Bunnylover]

@PM: Yes. The first post made by Pine was him calling me Scum.
I would rather be lynch now while we can still afford the mistake.

[Nachomamma8]

@PM: Yes. The first post made by Pine was him calling me Scum.
I would rather be lynch now while we can still afford the mistake.

This doesn't make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

@PM: Yes. The first post made by Pine was him calling me Scum.
I would rather be lynch now while we can still afford the mistake.

This doesn't make sense.

[Pine]

It makes so little sense, he had to say it twice.

If BL is a Townie, then the logic of scum shooting one of us to cast suspicion on the other still makes sense. BL shouldn't be trying to fatalistically "get it over with" he should be trying to absorb a NK.

This is a pity play on BL's part, and an ATE to the max.

[knox]

It’s oh so quiet.

Still waiting for reply’s from kondi, twisted, oversoul and andy.

@bunny what are your current reads? Why so quick to throw in the towel?

@mastin hope it goes well for you and you come back refreshed and ready to go

[Andycyca]

Hey there thanks, I do. What are your current reads? What do you think about the Pine vs. Bunny neighbours quarrel?

On the Pine/BL neighbor thing... in a closed setup I have no reason to believe in that there are neighbors. Just for kicks, let's assume there are neighbors in this game and Pine and BL are them.

If they are neighbors, we can't know it until after one of them is dead; they can't give us any results (which could semi-confirm their role). If they are neighbors as they say and one is scum and the other one is town, discussing which is which is pretty much pointless (basically a NO U fight). Of course, we can see their actions/reactions/interactions and judge on them which one is scummier, then lynching one....

...Of course, that last sentence is exactly what we should do with everyone, at all times. In this case, the neighbor pair claim is of no use to town and can be a great distraction. On the other hand, the scrutiny under which the neighbors would fall in order to establish their innocence or guilt is exactly the same as if they weren't neighbors.

So, thanks Occam, we should treat them exactly the same as if there aren't any neighbors.

Reads will come later this afternoon

[Pine]

Are you really this dense, or do you just play it on TV?

If one or both of us are Town, we wouldn't have fakeclaimed Neighbors. Therefore, we are either both scum, or both actual Neighbors. Therefore, you're suggesting that we're both scum, and I'm pushing my buddy's death, when said death would result in a flip that would get me lynched too.

You

try

and sound logical with the reference to Occam, but you haven't actually applied any reasoning to the situation. Go back to your hole, or do something productive.

[Bunnylover]

It makes so little sense, he had to say it twice.

If BL is a Townie, then the logic of scum shooting one of us to cast suspicion on the other still makes sense. BL shouldn't be trying to fatalistically "get it over with" he should be trying to absorb a NK.

This is a pity play on BL's part, and an ATE to the max.

Why do you have doubts now?
Lynch me, scum will probably have to NK you if you are town as I'm fairly sure the town isn't crazy enough to lynch you if you aren't killed.
No play to ATE, just makes the most sense at the moment.
I can't draw the NK while people are willing to vote me, kinda terrible play for scum to kill me when they can lynch me right?

It’s oh so quiet.

Still waiting for reply’s from kondi, twisted, oversoul and andy.

@bunny what are your current reads? Why so quick to throw in the towel?

@mastin hope it goes well for you and you come back refreshed and ready to go

I'm still not liking Pine nor Sly.
Sly a little hard headed with his vote on Nacho which no one seems to agree with him on, but sticks to his guns. A throw away vote for this day.

@Pine:
I'm confused.
You think I'm scum right?
You think the neighbor is always going to be T v S, right?
Then wouldn't it be a good play for two scum to claim neighbor, push the lynch on each other and claim town by the other flip?
And yes I know I'm ignoring the obvious cop who would investigate one, but would have to claim on Day 2 to get one lynch etc etc.

[Pine]

I have never wavered in thinking you're scum. No idea how you twisted that into anything different.

Neighbors are not always going to be Town/Scum. But most of the time, they are. Hence my initial suspicions. Then your pre-game behavior, reaction to being suspected, later odd actions, and most recently your "woe is me" massive AtE and self-vote locked me in. If you're NOT scum, you need to go back to Newbie games.

And your proposed "wouldn't scum always claim Neighbor" scenario is moronic. The problem is that when the loser of the double bus flipped, they'd flip as a non-neighbor, bringing their buddy down with them. It's like scum fakeclaiming Masons together - it can be effective, but only if they never get killed. They irrevocably lock themselves together. That's why Andycya deserves chiding, for not thinking through his suggestion. Besides, they could simply double bus the life out of one another to a very similar effect.

Lynch me, scum will probably have to NK you if you are town as I'm fairly sure the town isn't crazy enough to lynch you if you aren't killed.

This quote makes sense, but only if BL is convinced we're Town/Town Neighbors, or if BL flips scum.

I'm still not liking Pine nor Sly.

Whoops! Cognitive dissonance.