Mini 332 - Camp Scum Lake - Mod Abandoned

[B Rob]

Let's not forget this:

Unvote Vote: Twito

who has posted twice the entire game. (Well, it should be considered one post, since one is right after the other.)

16 minutes later:

Well I'm here. Just hadn't had time to read through topic so I haven't posted. I wanna have base on my votes or I just stick with random.

My testweek is ending so I should have time to go through everything soon enough.

13 minutes later:

Unvote Vote: Twito

who has posted twice the entire game. (Well, it should be considered one post, since one is right after the other.)

Pot, meet Kettle.

You've only posted 3 times, including that one.

Two minutes

later:

Unvote Vote: Twito

who has posted twice the entire game. (Well, it should be considered one post, since one is right after the other.)

Pot, meet Kettle.

You've only posted 3 times, including that one.

:D So I just went past him with this post?
Well I'm really gonna try to find time to read through thread tomorrow but now I need some sleep.

Call me crazy, but it just seems miraculous to me that someone who isn't able to read a two-and-a-half page game is able to play close enough attention to notice when he is voted and post about it so soon.

I also don't like how he put me and 6 and

pushed for a role claim at the same time

.

I'll put my money where my mouth is:

Unvote Vote: Twito

[Twito]

I'm back. But I'm very tired now since I just returned home so I'll read through later on. Possibly tomorrow if I have time..

It seems I have had some votes piling on me while I've been away. Starting a wagon on me while I'm not here to defend myself? Looks like scum behavior to me.

Anyways I'll be back later to read through and see if there are reasons behind votes on me.

[Maverick]

I must say, I do agree with BRob for the most part about Twito not having time to post unless he's the one being targetted.. but that could be mere coincidence, maybe it was just his daily mafia check and he saw after posting in other games that this one had been updated. That isn't much of a reason for a vote, but I agree with the pushing for a role claim thing too.. However, I can also see that being a way of showing that he wanted to finish the day quickly. But like CDB said it is very difficult to read Twito, i find the same problem. I'm not defending Twito at all, because I can easily see him being scum, as I believe I have said before, I just want to look at both sides before making a decision.

I'm not going to vote just yet, although I will

FOS: Twito

until he has time to defend himself.

[TBuG]

I'm considering voting Twito partly because of the reasons that have been suggested, and partly because of his response.

FoS: Twito

[Twito]

Read those posts of yours and couldn't find any real reasons that I hadn't already explained.
Also didn't feel like completely re-read was necassery coz we already have all those summaries so I'm just gonna post my own feelings and not another useless and scummy summary. Since those and long posts about guessing game setup are couple of ways for scum to look like they are participating when they are actually not.

I did push B Rob for roleclaim but does that really need explaining? I've had him at my suspicions list for a long time and just one summary by him isn't gonna completely clear him either. Anyways that makes it clear that he might be able to provide more to this game and maybe later on I can get a better read on him.
I'm getting more suspicious of him based on bringing up something he already has said(and I've answered) before now that there is some heat on me. And I gotta say again that the timing of this wagon on me points at scum behavior. I told on wednesday that I was gonna be away rest of the week. I came back abit early, last night. Still during those 4 days there has been wagon build on me based on me being hard to get a read on? Very interesting.

Btw about my earlier main suspicions list:
It contained ChannelDelibird, Maverick, B Rob and Rosso Carne.
Currently I'm feeling better about Maverick, gut feeling. Also getting some good wibes from B Rob along with some bad ones so with him I'm still undecided. My gut still puts CD on a bit scummy side but that's not very clear and noticeable.
And then there is Rosso Carne. I'm abit undecided about him but anyways.. I feel like he is acting like scum and if that is coz he is a jerk(his own words not mine) then I'm very sorry but you shouldn't act like scummy jerk and get away with it on a mafia game.

Anyways accusations againts me so far:
1. Timing of my posts
2. Me being hard to get a read on
3. Pushing B Rob for roleclaim

1. I often follow games in daily basis even though I can't completely remember what has happened earlier coz of having many games at the same time. If there however are some things that need my responce and I'm able to give that responce without doing a re-read over thread I normally reply. I don't see nothing weird about that. Also at the beginning of the game I don't normally get too much useful information about the game so I tend not to post much since I don't have much to say. When there is enough on the table I do a re-read and find my suspects. During day some of those clear themselves. Some of them have my suspicions on them for the next day.

Talking about timing look at the wagon attempts on me. Both have been when I've been/seemed to be completely away and unable to defend myself. Luckily first time I checked the thread intime before wagon was build.

2. What can I say.. It's still beginning of the game and it's hard to get a read on anyone. If you feel I'm especially hard one to get a read on does that mean I'm scummy or that I might have more to offer to the game? Anyways this kinda accusation is pretty much impossible to answer.

3. I support roleclaims. When someone is being pushed for a roleclaim you can see alot from that persons reaction to being forced to claim and if that reaction fits that role and much more. You can also see a lot from the way those who are forced to claim attempt to defend themselves. My gut is pretty good with this kinda stuff and since roleclaims help me get a read on ppl I obviously support them.
When I gave B Rob the one-before-lynch vote I was able to see if he roleclaims or tries other kind of defence. Other kind of defence, like the one he used, points into him being scum, important townrole(like doc, cops often claim) or regular townie who is still interested in game. Some regular townies just give up though..

So my votes stays at Rosso Carne, who I feel is either scum or townie playing really stupid and scummy. There are some other suspects I still have aswell. Like Channel Delibird and B Rob.
Most townish gut feelings I get are from Serinah and Maverick atm.

[B Rob]

There are a number of problems with Day 1 roleclaims. First, they are impossible to substantiate as (commonly) no night choices have been made yet.

Second, anyone who claims a power role should be nightkilled. Leaving them alive creates an unnecessary liability for the mafia, IMO. Sometimes mafia will leave the claimer alive as an attempt to paint him as a fraud. In either case, the town gains very little. The scum can simply bandwagon someone else and decide how to deal with the claimer later.

Third, any player (town or scum) can claim on day one with little liability. Scum have a big incentive to do this, as they want to preserve their secrecy for as long as possible.

And finally, what value does a Day 1 claim actually have? Early claims provide little if any information.

This is a matter of opinion, so I suggest we move on to discussing something else. Twito's explanations are good, and I'm not seeing enough good reasons for this wagon, so I will

Unvote

.

[warpdragon]

When I gave B Rob the one-before-lynch vote I was able to see if he roleclaims or tries other kind of defence. Other kind of defence, like the one he used, points into him being scum, important townrole(like doc, cops often claim) or regular townie who is still interested in game. Some regular townies just give up though.

So is a day one claim usefull or isn't it?

[Maverick]

Twito Wrote:

So my votes stays at Rosso Carne, who I feel is either scum or townie playing really stupid and scummy.

I definately agree with that, I don't know that Rosso Carne is scum or not but like Twito said he is playing a very dumb game. And I'm not buying the whole "Im a jerk" thing, sounds like a lame attempt at being an "IS wannabe". And I hope that isn't how you always play.

B Rob Wrote:

This is a matter of opinion, so I suggest we move on to discussing something else. Twito's explanations are good, and I'm not seeing enough good reasons for this wagon, so I will Unvote.

Although I do agree that Twito made good points, I think the fact that you unvoting after basically being the one who started the Twito wagon is suspcious. You have done this before in this game, changed your opinion so spontainously.. so maybe it's just how you play.. I'm not sure.

[Rosso Carne]

I guess what set me off is that I absolutely hate claim pushers, especially in board games {scumchat, not so much, where D1 massclaims are commonplace}. A claim D1 helps no one but scum in about 70% of situations. So in that case, explosion necessary.

[B Rob]

B Rob Wrote:

This is a matter of opinion, so I suggest we move on to discussing something else. Twito's explanations are good, and I'm not seeing enough good reasons for this wagon, so I will Unvote.

Although I do agree that Twito made good points, I think the fact that you unvoting after basically being the one who started the Twito wagon is suspcious. You have done this before in this game, changed your opinion so spontainously.. so maybe it's just how you play.. I'm not sure.

What??? Where the hell are you getting that from??? I was the 5th vote on him, and I didn't even consider lynching him until this wagon started developing!

FOS Maverick

[Maverick]

The first two had no intentions of lynch, therefore should not be blamed for a bandwagon, IMO. And the other two you wanted to hear reasonings from and stated your own somewhat long reasoning for voting twito, which to me shows that your wanting to convince others to vote. So I feel that you egged on the wagon the most.

I do see where I messed up though, I should have said you egged it on the most in the first place, instead of you started it. My fault.

[ChannelDelibird]

I do agree with the point that Maverick was trying to make (apart, obviously, from the first vote part), about you building what looked like a substantial case against Twito and suddenly saying 'I'm not seeing good enough reasons for this wagon'. If you didn't see good reasons for a wagon why did you hop onto it?

FoS: B Rob

Also,

unvote Twito

.

[serinah80]

I'm posting this before reading through Twito's self-defence, just to not forget what I wanted to say.
Have you been following Buffy Mafia? I have. Twito has been killed off there for the similar reasons in my opinion. He 'reads scummy'. Blah!!

He was killed off and turned up town. You wanna know what I think? I think Twito is just playing too many games at the same time. If he is a scum in here then I'll be surprised. Being busy is not scummy (pointing at herself) and pushing for a role claim is not. It seems to me that pushing BRob was just the thing Twito would do as an impatient person. He does it for the same reasons he mentioned the quicklynches and about the game speed. Neither are really scummy if you know how Twito plays.

Yellowbounder on the other hand has acted scummy. He's contribution does not sit well with me. Seems to me that after seeing how well BRob did with posting his PBPA, he wanted the same reaction. Unfortunately he didn't really give us any opinions with his post, he only went over everything we already knew.
In my opinion BRob won the town over not because the fact he wrote the long post but because of how he wrote it. His personality was in the post and somehow it made us believe him being town.
Yellowbounders post does not cut the same edge. The post seems too calculated to me. But I might be mistaking. Or even if it is calculated it might be still a calculation of a town wanting to get others off his back.
Anyway I see how yellowbounder might be a scum. And maybe he's not.

I'm gonna read everything over and post another if I change my opinion after reading Twito's and others' post.

[serinah80]

What??? Where the hell are you getting that from??? I was the 5th vote on him, and I didn't even consider lynching him until this wagon started developing!

FOS Maverick

oh, come on, quit jumping around like this, BRob! You can't fos someone because they made some stupid mistake or thinking you did something you really didn't...

[Rosso Carne]

...you did that... O_o

[serinah80]

My gut still puts CD on a bit scummy side but that's not very clear and noticeable. /.../

I feel like he is acting like scum and if that is coz he is a jerk(his own words not mine) then I'm very sorry but you shouldn't act like scummy jerk and get away with it on a mafia game. /.../

3. I support roleclaims. /... / You can also see a lot from the way those who are forced to claim attempt to defend themselves. My gut is pretty good with this kinda stuff and since roleclaims help me get a read on ppl I obviously support them.

1 - Now I think I have discovered, what I might have in mind writing that CDB might be scum because he's too logical. Reading some of his responces I have a feeling that every time he contributes he is saying something to accuse someone. Sometimes he does it directly sometimes covertly. I didn't skim everything through to check but that's my opinion of the moment.

2 - I agree that no one should get away with acting like a jerk even if he's town but that's not my reason for voting RCrane. My reason is he's pointing his finger around. You know it's actually strange, because BRob has done that too but he doesn't feel scummy doing that...
Can't explaine that right now. Havta think...

3 - I agree that there's 2 sides of a coin to role claims. It does benefit town little in my opinion but it is true that you can get a pretty good info on someone who is claiming. Though if he has a power role he's done in and town benefits even less. But if the claiming guy is actually a scum we could benefit.
So I wouldn't encourage it just in case on a day 1. But I already went over the reasons I think Twito wanted that RC.

[serinah80]

...you did that... O_o

eem... what??

[ChannelDelibird]

1 - Now I think I have discovered, what I might have in mind writing that CDB might be scum because he's too logical. Reading some of his responces I have a feeling that every time he contributes he is saying something to accuse someone. Sometimes he does it directly sometimes covertly. I didn't skim everything through to check but that's my opinion of the moment.

I think you're possibly right on that front, but there's a reason for that - earlier in the game Maverick accused me of only agreeing with people and never giving my own opinion, so since then I've felt the need to suggest suspects a bit more. I'm sure if I posted less posts of my suspicions people would start thinking I wasn't saying enough.

[B Rob]

Off topic, but

Mod

, Varian dropped out of another game, and he hasn't posted here in quite a while.

This Twito wagon smells scummy... I'm exhausted right now, but I'd love to take a good look at it tomorrow.

[audacesiuvat]

Varian will be prodded, and given the chance to return before I search for a replacement.

Vote Count:

Rosso Carne (4): TB, PBuG, Twito, serinah80
Twito (3): WarpDragon, Rosso Carne, yellowbounder
B Rob (1): Varian

Not Voting (4): Maverick, Erotomachia, B Rob, ChannelDelibird

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

[Rosso Carne]

What??? Where the hell are you getting that from??? I was the 5th vote on him, and I didn't even consider lynching him until this wagon started developing!

FOS Maverick

oh, come on, quit jumping around like this, BRob! You can't fos someone because they made some stupid mistake or thinking you did something you really didn't...

2 - I agree that no one should get away with acting like a jerk even if he's town but that's not my reason for voting RCrane. My reason is he's pointing his finger around. You know it's actually strange, because BRob has done that too but he doesn't feel scummy doing that...
Can't explaine that right now. Havta think...

uhhhh, does anyone else find these two out of sync? More to come laterz on.


And a scummy Twito wagon, Mr. BRob, you jump around more than some particular mexican beanz.

[Rosso Carne]

Let's examine Uncle Rosso's wagon, shall we?

Random Vote: Rosso Carne

Mostly because it sounds Italian.[/b]

to which I responded

^^^Heh, it is^^^

Next, all you bw scum jumped on

unvote, vote:varian for thinking im stupid enough not to open freaking wikipedia.

to which I got a nice

Um... huh?

That wasn't even directed at you, Mr Brilliance.

You weren't even involved in the conversation about maverick having to do with knives. Not even mentioning the fact that a Razz usually denotes a joke.

Unless you've got 2 accounts in the same game?

Unvote, Vote: Rosso Carne for being incredibly and wrongly touchy.

unvote
vote Rosso Carne

If Varian over reacted, then Rosso started it by being agressive.
Acting like a jerk means acting like a scum in my book. Especially so early in the game...

(note: I didn't say he was a jerk, I said he acted like it.)

Cool

{also starting the massive many misspellings of my name by serinah -_-} along with my backing by Mav and CDB, and eroto attacking me ON PAGE 2 {if you people don't get that I was freaking joking by now just say so and I'll get replaced}

Then came the

Rosso Carne, you are at fault here. Varian was not saying "Oh, you must all be incredibly stupid not to know what maverick means", but that was what you took from his post. You were clearly not random voting, and to say it was is clearly trying to avert suspicion.

Unvote; Vote: Rosso Carne

followed by

I don't think we can lynch Rosso for being rude.

and

Also, I do find it suspicious that Rosso Carne random voted twice

As for Rosso Carne, I don't feel any need to vote him due to two random votes because that is weird but not lynch worthy..

The Mav quote is obvious in that ITS PAGE 2, I'm allowed to randomly vote however many times I wish for whatever pun I'm trying to make. It's not going to upset the balance of the game.
The serinah quote is gonna be hit on laterz.

Then BRob jumps down my throat cuz I wanted to keep a little thinking secret, which eh..I guess I can agree with, but it was page 3 and those things are definitely better left to the dirt pile until more solid info comes up. Then Serinah backs off {uhh yeah} but complains I was being too aggressive. Well, in the words of a great man:

Would you prefer I not start bandwagons, and we all sit around singing "Kumbaya"?

We get no discussion whatsoever if no one does anything. I like starting discussion, and starting random wagons and arguments early is great to do that, but its usually nothing with lynching over unless someone does something stupid. It almost always leads to better discussion and an overall better day. But you people have let this explode and day just keeps dragging and dragging. So back to my wagon: About this tie the mav attacks came {TB, eroto, BRob, CDB, twito, and yellow all voiced some stuff} so Uncle Rosso was out fo the loop {except I attacked BRob}. Then BRob OMGUS's me

Rip him appart? Come on, you make is sound like there's that much to go on! I had a little more time to think over it, and I've decided that he's probably protown. He really wasn't asking to be lynched, that was a misinterpretation on my part. Note: Channel Delibird seemed to buy into my misinterpretation. I unvoted him because I think he is protown. Shouldn't we lynch scum?

And how am I linked to serinah? I haven't mentioned her at all, nor has she mentioned me. It sounds like you are trying to establish a potential scum pair that you can point to.Vote: Rosso Carne

And TB follows suit with this pair

I also had other scummy vibes from you, and none from mav.

All right, that post is the limit. Unvote, vote Rosso Carne.
I'm getting the feeling that Maverick's buddy's are trying to protect him by attacking B Rob, while the arguments they use are extremely poor.
I understand B Rob's reasons for unvoting, and I was tempted to unvote myself, but since Maverick was still the most supicious guy in my book, I didn't. With this post:

I also had other scummy vibes from you, and none from mav.

that completely changed.
I don't think it's possible to get no scummy vibes from Mav. By don't explaining yourself on the "other scummy vibes" you don't have a lot of evidence.

Either Maverick is scum and Rosso Carne is trying to protect him, or Maverick is protown and Rosso Carne is scum trying to convince other people that they shouldn't e making a mislynch, thus gaining the trust of the town.

Yeah, you were trying to lynch a guy because he "asked to be lynched" {GAH BUT REALLY DIDN'T}
Then BRob shifts from me to Varian. Serinah:

Rosso Crane - my favourite scum. Smile Well, I think he is. Agressive and sharp. His goal of game seems to be lynching someone. It might be town that likes action but I think it's a scum that wants to win. I'll be quite surprised if he turns up dead tomorrow. or any other day for that matter.

...and after I didn't jump on the Mav wagon. BRob posts his pbpas and PBuG resurfaces from the depths to unvote, vote BRob, then unvote for "major contribution" and get back on me. Twito follows suit:

Sorry I'm not buying it. I think you are acting scummy and saying that's just the way you play doesn't make it okey.

Vote: Rosso Carne

Oh, but I'm sorry Mr. Twito, Youre acting scummy and the way you play doesnt make it ok either *crying face* Yellow unvotes his random vote. PBuG and Twito back up their as me countering and such. Serinah again misspells my name in a wagoneer attack:

When you say something like: "I'm waiting a reaction" meaning that you'll probably have a scum reacting, then you probably will not have a reaction.

Almost every time Rosso Crane writes something I wanna vote him. Now after his voting Twito was gonna vote him.
But then someone said it's a bandwagon. That made me rethink voting. Don't want to look scummy.

But you know what?? I don't think it's a bandwagon anymore. If a guy is acting so agressive all the time, if he's only way of playing is changing votes all the time for crappy reasons, then he is scummy. Yeah, I've had enough. Voting Twito for bloody having an opinion about game speed?!!

Twito thought that we could play faster. Well, so what?? Of course it would be great! I'd love it too. To wish or maybe enven say a little bit impatiently that he's used to 1-2 day lynches is not scummy in my book.
Voting for such behaviour is.

The more I play the more sure I am.

vote: Rosso Crane

And thats about it. Analysis to come laterz on.

[Rosso Carne]

In review:

Let's analyze the reasons Rosso has been voted on.
1.

I am agressive and try to incite discussion.

Although it's a little of a lot of people, this is captained by serinah. The main point of day 1 is to have a paper trail of information for which to pound scum later. This can't be done if all we do day I is sit around, name our town, go to church, sit around eating fast food all day, and eventually go and vote no lynch cuz we love each other so much. There has got to be discussion and I started some. Jumping down my throat cuz i get people talking is senseless.

2.

I didn't find Mav scummy {dot dot dot}

Uhhh, I still don't get this one. Started by TB and later sorta getting a following by BRob, eroto, and even Mav himself, I don't get how that's even a plausible reason for scumminess. I more felt the people on Mav's wagon were scummy for wanting him lynched. He never asked to be lynched. There's got to be some scum on that wagon, cuz if Mav were lynched and turned up town, we'd have had no information, and scum win day 1.

3.

I pushed a twit wagon

Twit acts scummy. He tells me that the way I play is no excuse for acting scummy. Well Twit, you act scummy, but the only backing you have for it {as given by serinah} is thats how you always play.

What bothers me the most are serinah's on again, of again relationship with me. It seems like every other post she changes her view of whether it's ethical to lynch someone for being a jerk, based on if the votes are falling my way. She jumps on every wagon started and pulls off whenever anyone else does, each time saying either "we cant lynch Rosso for being rude" or "let's lynch Rosso, no jerks in this town!" That just strikes me {as is I'd hope be obvious} of scummish behavior. YOU serinah, want someone lynched, and the votes have hit me the most, but once they fall away, youre gone too. EVERY TIME like clockwork.

On that note I hate PBuG's lurking too. He resurfaces the one time Rosso gets hit, and calmly unvotes and revotes in succession.

And twit is just scummy. If an argument based on metagaming doesnt work for one's personality, then an argument based on metaaming surely doesnt work for one's play style.

[TBuG]

I'm not lurking. I recently got out of school, so I'm more active now, but not much is happening in this game.

Unvote, Vote: Twito

I didn't realize I was still voting Rosso, and even though he's getting on my nerves, he makes good points and Twito pissed me off when he posted this:

Starting a wagon on me while I'm not here to defend myself? Looks like scum behavior to me.

Anyways I'll be back later to read through and see if there are reasons behind votes on me.

Obviously you ignored the post B Rob had made when you posted that. And not being around means people aren't allowed to vote for you?

[serinah80]

First of all, Rosso CArne, I'm really sorry for misspelling your name.
I didn't just misspell it, I misread it. I just thought that it was Crane, not Carne.

I wasn't paying attention. Sorry.

Now the pity trip.
Yeah, I know, many of us has been bastards to you. But do you think there were certain reasons. Example: if you make a joke and others don't understand you and call you a jerk, then it's wise to say "sry it was a joke". Then ppl will get the joke and will accept you. Common sense really.

Of course often to start a discussion it is nice to have some jerk to do something stupid. But then again if you continuously act as one then others are gonna think you unpleasant person.
It might make ppl stupid sheep but that's the way it is.
I already mentioned that BRob has jumped around the same as you for a while but I still like him.
Well there's the difference. He stopped and didn't overdo with that. He can say that he made a mistake if needed. It makes him human and it makes him nice.

And what do you do when things get out of hand and you get bandwagoned? You start showing off how everyone have hurt you...

BTW how to define a bandwagon? I thought it was something done without a conciderable proof, just because?? Because if that is definition, then I don't see a bandwagon against Rosso.