WoT Mafia, GAME OVER

[petroleumjelly]

Why, are you leaving, Fritzler? You're still alive so far as I know.

As it is, there are too many people who skated by without giving much of their opinion yesterday. Those people are:

Illumina
Bacde
Themanhimself (AmeliaSlay)
Coron
Fritzler
Logicticus
Max
Pooky

I would certainly like to hear what these people have to say.

[Fritzler]

oh, i saw this from flay

Fritzler ) - killed night 2 - Mesaana

[Yosarian2]

yeah, I agree with yos although there is a lot of WIFOM in this, I think lynching mari strickly on this would be extremely weak though

Yeah; with WIFOM issues, it's not very much of a tell either way, I think.

As it is, there are other reasons for voting Mariyta, but I don't believe this is a particularly strong one.

Ok, I'll bite. What other reasons are there for voting Mariyta?

[armlx]

Flay prolly was scum. Karn's name wasn't in red either.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah; it seems pretty clear Karn, Shamrock, and Flay were all scum. No way two of the forsaken could be good guys.

Since Mr. Flay was scum, I'm very interested to hear if Tamuz has any more cryptic hints for us today.

[logicticus]

i see gleeman took away our red hints.

tis a shame

[Mariyta]

I'm virtually sure Mariyta is scum, based on yesterday, and the fact that Karn "cleared" her is the icing on the cake. I won't say it's a mortal lock, but only because ChannelDelibird is defending her, and I have him down for the wrong scum group for that.

Perhaps Albert the Great can help clear this up. Albert, who are your scum buddies?

How many people did you just accuse? 3? How about some good reasons for each.

[Axelrod]

Heh. I agree with TSS, except I've got like three more people on my hit list in addition (which would be, for reference, armlx, MrBuddyLee, and Broomhead). I realize they can't all be scum, even in a game this size. But I'd say there's a

disproportionate

amount in there.

[Yosarian2]

I'm virtually sure Mariyta is scum, based on yesterday, and the fact that Karn "cleared" her is the icing on the cake. I won't say it's a mortal lock, but only because ChannelDelibird is defending her, and I have him down for the wrong scum group for that.

Perhaps Albert the Great can help clear this up. Albert, who are your scum buddies?

Hmmm...re-reading Maritya's posts from yesterday, I do see a few scum tells. Fishing for details about Tamuz's role seems scummy, and I don't like the way she voted then unvoted Karn.

[petroleumjelly]

As it is, there are other reasons for voting Mariyta, but I don't believe this is a particularly strong one.

Ok, I'll bite. What other reasons are there for voting Mariyta?[/quote]

You know, you could just try looking back at Mariyta's posts and judging for yourself. Grr.

1.) Fishing towards me to elaborate on my random vote on ChannelDelibird at the beginning of the game.
2.) Using weak humor ('that's not a random vote, that's a bandwagon!')
3.) Mariyta claims she was not thinking about Cop claims when asking me to elaborate, which seems like horsepuckey to me. If you think a vote isn't random, then you must think there is information behind it: a good source for information is a Cop. That may or may not be the case, but that comment seemed insincere.
4.) Made a weak attempt at defending Karn's actions while supplying the caveat of "not defending Karn's actions".
5.) FoSing me, which is clearly unacceptable.
6.) The fact that Karn1 "cleared" her (although I still think this is weak)

However, I see good reason to believe Mr. Flay, Karn1, and Mariyta are not scum together, that being the fact that Karn1 placed an early second vote on Mariyta and Mr. Flay placed an early third vote on Mariyta (with AmeliaSlay/TheMansHimself placing the first). That does not mean Mariyta cannot be in an alternate scum group (i.e. the Black Ajah), but I do find reason to doubt she would be one of The Forsaken. I am more apt to believe that Karn1 and Mariyta are not associated at this point.

[Mariyta]

That's one thing I have yet to understand about this game here. How on earth is asking for people to elaborate "scummy"? I mean, seriously, how are you supposed to get information when all people do is drop hints about something and refuse to give more info?

And forgive me for trying to be funny. I'll keep my humor to myself from now on....

[Yosarian2]

Trying to find out if someone's a cop or not is scummy; that is, it's something that would benifit the scum more then the town, and it's something the scum really want to know.

[petroleumjelly]

For Mariyta:

Hypothetical situation #1:

Suppose I am the Cop, and I have a guilty investigation on Channel Delibird.

But

, I have reason to believe I may very easily be paranoid or insane. When you try to force me into elaborating on my vote, the only explanation I could give (which would make it non-random) would be to say I am a Cop with a guilty investigation.

However, claiming that on Day One with no means to know my sanity could be very

bad

for the town. If I

am

paranoid or insane, then hanging CD would of course be bad. Worse, I would look more anti-town afterwards for having an innocent lynched, which may lead me into also being lynched. Even if I can prove myself to be paranoid/insane or otherwise become confirmed, I would be a prime nightkill target for scum.

Hypothetical #2:

If I were a Mason (and thus know one to two more innocents), then my vote would "not be as random as it seems" because I would know ahead of time a few people who are innocent, and thus I would not vote them. However, if I were to claim this, it would drastically decrease the chance of the Masonry making it far into the game, where Masonries are strongest, and my claim would make it easier to determine the other Mason(s) in the game as well.

Hypothetical #3:

If I were a tracker and I had tracked CD to one of the dead players, that would not be definitive proof that CD was scum, although it would certainly increase the chances, thus making it "not as random as it seems". It would be bad to reveal this information, because CD could still easily be innocent, and if he

is

innocent, he is guaranteed to have a power role of some sort.

Overall:

Fishing is bad. If there is a true

reason

behind a "random vote", it is probably because that person is a power role of some sort. Power roles

do not

want to claim early, because it makes them easy night-kill targets, and the information they have may in fact be harmful to the town. If somebody does not want to reveal their reasons for voting early in the game,

do not push on them

, because chances are they have a good reason (and if they don't, you can just as easily determine that later in the game).

Luckily for you, my vote on Channel Delibird

was

random, so I do not have to worry about claiming in the least to explain my vote. The purpose of that statement was precisely to see who would try to latch onto it, and you were one of those people.

[Bascas]

Fishing

is

bad, however, there is a difference between a scum fishing and a town trying to research scum potential before laying down a vote on a fast growing bandwagon. But yeah,

fishing

is scummy. :teach:

[Mariyta]

I still don't understand how asking someone who says crap like "it may not be as random as it seems" why, is bad. Are we just supposed to ignore blatant things like that?

[broomhead]

I still don't understand how asking someone who says crap like "it may not be as random as it seems" why, is bad. Are we just supposed to ignore blatant things like that?

when someone says that, they are either A, town and trying to portray(stupidly, there are better ways) of what they know from the night before. and sometimes not stupidly, it could help

B, scum, trying to pretend they're town and give false hints.

C, it could be someone trying to attract attention for whatever reason.

either way, when you call someone out on it, its never taken well by anyone, A gets mad that you blatantly pointed it out. B tries to pretend that he's a town power role. and C has reasons beyond comprehension.

i think its best to note what they said, but not out loud, then try and determine their stance and use the information another day.

[Mariyta]

I still don't understand how asking someone who says crap like "it may not be as random as it seems" why, is bad. Are we just supposed to ignore blatant things like that?

when someone says that, they are either A, town and trying to portray(stupidly, there are better ways) of what they know from the night before. and sometimes not stupidly, it could help

B, scum, trying to pretend they're town and give false hints.

C, it could be someone trying to attract attention for whatever reason.

either way, when you call someone out on it, its never taken well by anyone, A gets mad that you blatantly pointed it out. B tries to pretend that he's a town power role. and C has reasons beyond comprehension.

i think its best to note what they said, but not out loud, then try and determine their stance and use the information another day.

It makes no sense to not point it out, but ok. Thanks for the lessons guys. I learn something new every day.

[Illumina]

Too many distractions since school ended - I'll take 40 minutes right now and catch up.

[Illumina]

Ok, done. Sorry if this is a double post.

Interesting developments. It's a little late for me to express my opinions about the recently departed (and thus confirmed), but the suspicion on Mariyta is interesting, as well as Tamuz apparantly being controlled.

PJ, I do see the logic in your assertions, but I don't think it's farfetched to consider Mariyta may simply have not looked far enough into the implications of asking the reasons behind your "less-than-random" vote. What you interpret as fishing could simply be innocent townie curoisity as to where your info comes from. When someone claims to have a unique source of information, it's a common reaction to immediately question it, whether or not it's actually the best thing to do.

I also don't see humor as a direct scum tell, but I admit this may be lack of experience.

Unvoting Karn1, well, I could go either way on. To me, it doesn't seem unreasonable that someone would unvote in the face of a claim that bold, plus the fact that she isn't familiar with the series. She also voted for Karn not too long afterwards, when there had only been a couple more votes added. Still, it's something to consider.

There's also the question of whether her confusion at being accused of cop fishing is genuine or not - but that's difficult to judge, at least for me.

[Mariyta]

Have we heard anything from Tamuz since yesterday?

[ChannelDelibird]

Not yet. I notice that the person Tamuz accused (Mr. Flay) turned out to actually be guilty.

[Mariyta]

Yes, it's a very interesting turn of events and I'm not quite sure what to think, especially w/o any input from Tamuz himself. Oh, wise Tamuz, please enlighten us today!

[broomhead]

well if he was post restricted yesterday,(or controlled) then he could have something like a 2 post limit to the day(that would suck) or he has to lie, and he doesn't know where to lie yet.

[Bascas]

I don't think that he has to lie. He knew somehow that Flay was scum. That was not a lie.

[broomhead]

well i was thinking that if there is a diffrent post restirction every day