[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

1) A vt claim does occasionally work (as does refusing to claim). That's just how it is.
2) 1:1:1 is probably not a draw with non-bulletproof SK, scum can still win by having the SK shoot wrong.
3) If I were town in 1:1:1 with bulletproof SK who claimed early, agreements be damned, I'd give the win to the Mafia.
4) The type of SK that picks bulletproof tends to be the type that's competent enough to be able avoid being forced into helping the town.

[izakthegoomba]

2) Yes, but scum would never come to an agreement to both shoot the Townie. If they wanted the draw, they'd lynch the Townie then cross-kill.
3) Why?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

2) No, no, there's no agreement. There's just a no-lynch and the SK doesn't know who the final scum is.
3) Because the SK doesn't deserve to win if he got caught early.

[izakthegoomba]

2) well, I guess it depends on the situation and the players.

[izakthegoomba]

Uh... bump?

[popsofctown]

A much better way in general is to replace the Doc that would be following the Cop with a Jailkeeper. And an SK is an anti-town role, so an innocent result on one IS a false result, regardless of what the Cop might want.

Does anyone have a problem with this?

4 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

(1-shot BP OR Inv-immune)

1 Cop
1 Jailkeeper
13 Townies

• Daystart
• Serial Killer chooses to be either 1-shot Bulletproof or Investigation-immune during the pregame
• The Serial Killer's chosen power is not revealed on death

The SK seems too weak. If he plays an antitown game, he is lynched and loses. If he plays his role very deceptively, a goodhearted jailkeeper could lock him up, preventing him from killing. Best play from there is to jail the same person again when you notice your action prevented a kill. Most rational scumteams wouldn't shoot the same failed kill twice in a row, the jailer might keep on jailing that individual, while a 1-shot BP can just be noted for later and handled if/when the jailer dies, or lynched. Most rational scumteams also wouldn't let the jailer roleblock the goon they selected twice. So a jailkeeper who jails the SK will probably jail him again, and then probably announce to the town that they've found the SK (unless the mafia is doing so well that it's not worthwhile, but the theme still is that this is rough on the SK).

Having both the jailer and either the kill or the investigation ringing a death knell for the SK seems too hard on the naturally difficult role.

I'd suggest an alternative, but it would turn into a tirade about why cop is a bad role. So.

[izakthegoomba]

Maybe you're right. People talk about how it's hard to win as SK, but I've not seen anyone do much about it.

I suggest we take the other common preventative for Follow the Cop - leave the doc in, but add a Mafia Roleblocker. A good SK wouldn't be likely to get roleblocked. A bad SK doesn't deserve to win anyway. Still give the choice between 1-shot BP and Investigation Immunity.

[popsofctown]

That doesn't decrease the number of targetted night actions that are "investigating" the SK. The roleblock causes eyebrow raises the same way the jailkeep did. So you still have 3 night actions that are painful for the SK and only 1 shot of immunity, it's just now 2 of them belong to scum and one belongs to town whereas with the jailkeeper two belong to town and one belongs to scum.


The status quo is that SKs will either have a game-warping immunity or will be underpowered. So if the plan is to use only basic roles it will be hard to create something that is generous to the SK. Removing the cop is the easiest thing. If you want to keep the cop, you'll probably have to use something that's not completely vanilla.

Macho cop would cut down the number of searchlights the SK needs to dodge to 2. Preferably the variant where when the doctor protects the cop, it doesn't do anything.

Good points, how about this:

4 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer, 1-shot daykill

(immune to kills OR investigation)

1 Cop
1 Doc
13 Townies

• Day start
• Serial Killer chooses their immunity upon confirming

That's the best I can come up with that stays with very classical roles.

I kinda like goons being afraid to lynch the SK.

[Albert B. Rampage]

No 20 player open games thanks

[izakthegoomba]

@pops that's a pretty good idea, as a claimed cop will die very quickly, encouraging him/her only to claim when it's critical to the game.

@Albert why? What's wrong with it?

[popsofctown]

The effect on town behavior is nice.

The effect on scum behavior is interesting too. Scum are deterred from lynching or killing the SK, because they will be punished with follow-the-cop.

I dislike the difficulty for town to find scum when scum are SK hunting and it looks like scumhunting. So making scum unable to do so sometimes makes me happy.

Mafia might need an additional goon to compensate. But finding the SK and not shooting it is a skill. And there's always odds the doc is just randomly shot.

[izakthegoomba]

With two kills in the game, plus the scum having no incentive to kill the SK, will make follow the cop much harder to use. Chances are either the Cop or the Doctor will die before the SK, and even if they don't, the town is unlikely to get more than a couple of days of Follow the Cop. I like this idea.

[Hoopla]

I think the SK should have an immunity choice between Investigation-Immune and 1-shot BP. Full Bulletproof is obviously a more desirable trait than immunity to one role in the game. Explain the 1-shot Daykill to me again.

[izakthegoomba]

Oh, I missed that. Yeah, it should be 1-shot BP or Inv-immune.

The daykill thing prevents the cop from claiming early. When the cop knows there's a daykill out there and the doc will be powerless to protect him, he won't claim until he's caught some scum, or got enough confirmed innocents that are still alive to make it worthwhile. Also, the scum will want to find, but not kill, the SK, because it would leave them open to Follow the Cop. They need to hunt the PRs first.

[Hoopla]

It seems like an extravagant mechanic to include just to minimise the possibility of Follow The Cop. What happens if the SK is alive deep in the game with the kill intact? It creates messy endgame scenarios.

I don't see why we don't just go with Macho Cop/Doc/SK/4 Goons.

[izakthegoomba]

What we have is a very simple, yet broken, setup. So we have to sacrifice a little simplicity. I'm with Hoopla, it's the most clutter-free option. It only effects ONE possible night action, and can't hurt the SK.

Hoopla, I assume the SK still gets to choose 1-shot BP or Inv-immune?

[Hoopla]

Yeah, the SK still gets its one choose of immunity. It's simple and there is no Follow the Cop strategies available.

[izakthegoomba]

So, pending Albert telling us what's so bad about a 20P open game, that one looks fixed to me. Let's see what else we have...

[Yosarian2]

I believe the binning is because Assassin in the Palace's optimal strategy is "Bandwagon the very first vote in a Day, absolutely no talking"

No, of course it's not; it's actually worse to start a bad bandwagon in an AITP game then in a normal game. Just because some people don't understand how to play the game, doesn't make it a bad game.

[Yosarian2]

I. Win conditions

If 1:1:1 is considered a mafia win 2:2:1 consequently needs to be added to the list of mafia wins, too. It just makes no sense to declare one kingmaker situation for town a win but not the other.

(shakes head)

The reason that 1:1:1 is a mafia win is that a pure kingmaker endgame sucks, and also, if mafia didn't win ties, then there's no way a mafia could win if he's the last member of is scumgroup.

2:2:1, though, is quite different. At that point, no one knows who is in what scumgroup for sure, no-lynch isn't an option since that just gives the game to the wolves, and it comes down to an actual game of mafia where each scum group is trying to lynch the other for the win.

[Magua]

No, of course it's not; it's actually worse to start a bad bandwagon in an AITP game then in a normal game. Just because some people don't understand how to play the game, doesn't make it a bad game.

I understand how to play the game just fine. I also understand how to play Dethy just fine. I've played fun games of Assassin in the Palace. I've played fun games of Dethy. Assassin in the Palace still has a breaking strategy that is not only unfun, but if followed gives the town a > 50% chance of winning based on EV, as does Dethy.

[Albert B. Rampage]

@pops that's a pretty good idea, as a claimed cop will die very quickly, encouraging him/her only to claim when it's critical to the game.

@Albert why? What's wrong with it?

What kind of mod would make a 20 player game for the open setup? It's ridiculous.

From a player point of view, if I'm looking for a large game, I go to New York or Theme Park. Not the Open queue. This game is destined to fail.

Not to mention that by the time the 20th player signs up, the first one will likely have flaked the site.

[popsofctown]

As I said earlier, Macho Cop works fine. I just thought that might run against the spirit of the setup.

[izakthegoomba]

Yes, I think so too. But I can't see any other solution that doesn't.

[popsofctown]

I know.





Secretly I just like daykills.