Brightest Day Mafia, Part 1 - GAME OVER

[Blackberry]

How did Kast know that Tans targetted Andrius?

[zMuffinMan]

He crumbed Andrius targeting Tans...................... Look at the order of his crumb - JADE ANDY TANS.

It's just that tans claimed to have targeted Andrius and in an ironic twist, Kast realised he could capitalise on this to make it seem like he tracked tans

[hiplop]

Yeah, I said this earlier, but: When andy broke the posting after hammered rule, when someone pointed it out; he stopped. Killjoy didn't. It was a COMPLETE dick move, and honestly I think it attributed to our loss

I liked this game, I tried something different with the lurking, a bunch of strong town players (muffin, mr s etc) WANTED me to be confirmed town, and so I figured the less I said the more I would prosper. AND imo it wouldve worked if it wasnt for KJ

eh I think i reacted DECENT enough to him confirming me as scum, i tried to do it in a townie manner, but I knew i was screwed :\

[Toogeloo]

AND imo it wouldve worked if it wasnt for KJ

That meddling kid!

[hiplop]

AND THAT BLASTED

dog

PANDA

[GreyICE]

Why did Drill Sergeant (Miscellaneous) successfully enhance Roleblocker (Roleblock)?

Drill sergeant was assumed to be a day action in the first draft. On review we saw that had changed, but decided for sanities sake it happened in the same layer as role modifying (i.e. copying) abilities.

Otherwise it literally did nothing most of the time, and that's kinda bad.

Also, damn we were more powerful than we thought...next time scum teammembers NEED to submit their entire role PM in QT. Toog you didn't tell us you got an EXTRA KILL.

Yeah, also the vote stealer was fairly powerful as he counted as a spare scumteam member in LyLo (4:2, steal a vote, now scum have 3 votes, town have three votes, gg town).

[nopointinactingup]

Kast shouldn't have given up though. With his posting style, it's hard to imagine how he could be lynched.

[Blackberry]

Ya, I don't know if Kast would have been lynched 100%.

Sure, me & Toast would have been on that. But Tans and Vezok - I have no idea XD.

[Toogeloo]

Going into night, Kast probably would have eaten a block I imagine, but even if he didn't, he would have had to still get two mislynches on the next day. Even if he successfully managed to swing Vezok's mislynch first, I really don't think he would have gotten away with the next one.

[GreyICE]

First, I have to congratulate Dekes and Dana for running this insanity. Overall, things were handled very well. I apologize to anyone who was offended by my running the moderation, it was a bad situation that I handled as best I could, and Dekes+Dana handled it nicely.

It was my idea to throw out the Golden Rule of NAR since I felt that night actions would be a stone bitch to resolve anyway without the various shenanigans the Golden Rule introduces. Basically, if we got a head start on resolving actions before the action deadline, we'd dramatically increase our efficiency, but we'd also dramatically increase the risk of a roleblocker 'blocking a roleblocker' or otherwise fucking up our nice 80% complete action resolution. Since the blocker-on-blocker action is a PITA to resolve anyway (especially with our flavors of blockers) it just seemed simpler to scrap the entire Golden Rule ordeal and resolve all actions simultaneously in each layer of NAR.

Double Days were something me and Dana hit on early to make this number of scum work. Basically, with a 6 man scumteam and a 3 man cult (OW) either we left the town dripping with power or we called it. I was scared up until the 11th hour that the cult was too strong despite our numerous anti-cult measures (for one, favoring roleblockers over protective roles) but Dana held firm and that was a very solid call.

Things I liked:

1) The strongest town power role being double days - I've been in too many games where the 'omg wow' power dies N1 or does nothing to trust town power. Indeed, the double days were crucial to town victory here. My major motivator was the worry that town apathy would kick in - there was a good chance in a mass power role game that there'd be two or even three confirmed scum on any given day. That leaves the lynch feeling very useless. Here, it remained a primary factor, and despite EVERY SINGLE PLAYER having a role, the lynch remained very relevant.

2) Lafleeze - I think me and Dana had more fun dreaming up that role. I would have cried if he died D1. Instead, he proved to live up to his full potential to confuse, confuddle, and be awesome.

3) Lex Luthor, town governor - don't flavor game. Lex and Lafleeze were your notifications that wouldn't be working.

4) Roleblockers - there were a TON of roleblockers, which lead to us just ditching the doctor (enough ways the scum kill could be intercepted anyway). Honestly I don't think we even seriously discussed a doctor - it's a boring role, one that doesn't fit superheroes, and one that just risked voltroning a PR into god.

5) The faction I think played best won. I like it when that happens.


Things I dislike

1) Kilowag - I sketched up the ideas of what he would do in haste, and we never really balanced them. The mystery magical vanilla was one of the less weird things he could do. Overall, I'd include the role again, but I might add some sort of hint that powers have changed. I also kinda wanted him to be a day power, because I thought that would foster discussion (I can upgrade someone, who wants it?). We lost that in the shuffle, and I was unclear about that anyway.

2) Lex Luthor, town governor - god that was a mean role. Lafleeze at least got a cool power to go with his obvscum claim, Lex just kinda got the shaft.

[tanstalas]

I can't believe I endgamed claiming Larfleeze D1

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can't believe I endgamed claiming Larfleeze D1

I think that was mainly because Luthor flipped Town Orange and you weren't a threat to either scum faction with your meh play.

More comments later when I have time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well this is a Town win I totally didn't see coming ... I had it written off as Scum / Cult when players like Magister and Andy were allowed to live much longer than they should have.

Thanks to all mods for the game. Running a non-Vanilla large game is a challenge. I understand the concerns expressed in the Dead Thread regarding not handling rules consistently and not following NAR but they were not crippling, IMO. Good flavor as always ... sad I had to die N1 again as.

Mafia did a great job crippling the Anti-Cult roles in their NKs / mis-lynches. Seriously ...

I think overall not a single element of the game (Town / Cult / Mafia) overall played a solid game. I completely agree there was too much flavor / power / Night action speculation and not nearly enough actual scum-hunting from the Town.

I think the Cult was probably overpowered with three players at the start. And giving the scum two free "Vig Janitor" kills would have been incredibly overpowered had Toog not scummed it up so obviously Day 1.

I need to read through the actual Role PMs to get a sense of everything that was going on. But I can say with certainty this is my last Cult game for a long, long time.

[ToastyToast]

man, sad I missed the game's end. 'twas both fun and absolutely infuriating. I think that sums it up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Hiplop

- Now that the game is over this is my source for your Scum-meta. Kthanxbye ....

[Oversoul]

Was I obvious cult in this game? From the comments in the QT it didn't look like many people had me pegged as cult. Also, if you could, list reasons why I was/wasn't.

Thanks.

[hiplop]

@Hiplop

- Now that the game is over this is my source for your Scum-meta. Kthanxbye ....

oh this is what you meant.. ic

[vezokpiraka]

o

I pegged you as cult the night I delayed you. I forgot exactly why,

[GreyICE]

Also, on Day 1 mass claim breaking the game, ReaperCharlie pushed hard to make sure that didn't happen (yes, really) and I think that it wouldn't have. At the ground level it would have been VERY hard to guess the pattern that is obvious when you're staring at the role PMs. To explain:

Lex Luthor and Lafleeze are not only both town, THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME RING (there's only one orange ring). Their in-game roles are from different points in the timeline.

2-shot Vanillizer - this role is potentially devastating during mass claim. Remember, culted players lose their powers. A player claiming to be vanillized looks an awful lot like a cult recruit on the ground level, and once cult figured out what was going on, they'd have almost certainly abused this.

2-shot Janitoring Vig - remember, we envisioned the scum team having 2 kills at least N1 (N2 we knew it would be dicey if the role made it that long, I envisioned it being about 50/50). With 2 kills and a Vanillize, the town gets boned HARD during mass claim - for instance the mafia can take out the jailkeeper, Lafleeze, and the Mafia cop in one night, with very little the town can do about it (NO DOCTOR).

Roleblocker - heh

Basically, the scum team could take out 4 roles N1 during mass claim (2 dead, one vanilla, one blocked) and another 3 N2 (2 dead, one vanilla, one blocked). Additionally, scar could take out an anti-cult role (which he did) and the cult could recruit an anti-cult role. On the ground level, that results in absolute chaos without firm town leaders who stick to their guns.


Ugly claims
Maxwell Lord - No one ever got to see this one in action, but Maxwell Lord is a REALLY ugly character. Wonder Woman KILLED him for hells sake. Also I don't know if anyone noticed Magua's pun, but when he said he was the cult counter he KNEW everyone would take it as 'he counters cult' when his role was the cult

counter

(he gets a PM telling him the number of cult in the game 'i.e. counting the cult').



Extra notes:

1) the flavor scene with Necron and the staff - this was always meant to be in there. Basically, we didn't want a repeat of Darkest Night with the 'ninja cult leader' so when he resurrected (an event that cost the cult an extra death, so as not to be TOTALLY ridiculous late game) it played out a nice little modscene warning the town that Necron was back in action. That was always the intention. Sadly, none of us thought to write the modscene ahead of time, something I certainly should have caught (Dana had enough to write, BELIEVE ME).

2) Three member starting cult - Essentially, thanks to the double day mechanic, cult leader was an even night recruiter. Additionally, he was blockable. With the scumteam power level where its at, my equation was that 6 mafia = 7 cult in terms of strength (Mafia had many more and much stronger roles than the cult). Since I could assume at least one recruit 'went bad' (recruit hit scum, recruit was shot before recruiting, cult leader jailkept) that made cult equal to mafia on night 5. We can argue back and forth (recruiting nets you much stronger players on the plus side, on the minus side recruits can only come from one player making the tracker and watcher much stronger, and the town is targeting the cult leader over the mafia due to the cult being more long-term dangerous).

3) My goal wasn't to make the game balanced. It was for each team to, at some point, go 'holy fuck how do we win this' and at some point go 'holy fuck how do we lose this.' I thought mafia would have that point early on when they realized they had a 2 shot VIGILANTE on the SCUMTEAM, but thanks to the mistakes, it never materialized. Otherwise I think there were points that both scumteams were counting lynches and wondering how the hell they would win, and points where the town felt they were slowly drowning in a sea of scum.

[Kast]

Otherwise it literally did nothing most of the time, and that's kinda

bad

unnatural

.

...and that's why we use Natural Action Resolution

I can see it would be more work, but when people are told throughout the game that things are being done one way, it's disconcerting when mods announce on the final day "haha we messed up, we're actually running this game completely different from how we've been saying from the beginning". Sometimes that doesn't make a difference, but in this case BB misunderstood your messages as confirmation that Tans was not recruited (thus making him town).

Personally, I think the fair thing would be to just refer him to NAR as had been done throughout the game, and if he was asking questions specifically about how the mafia vanillizer role worked, then just tell him he doesn't know OR that "it depends on what the vanillizer's role PM says".

@Tracker Claim-
We completely BSed about the Tans targetting Andy. My brother had made the breadcrumb then just posted some stuff claiming we believed Tans was innocent. The original plan was to use the other "breadcrumbs" as if they were indicating that we thought Andy was scum and did some kind of negative action on Tans. But after Tans claim, I tried spinning them around and some of them worked pretty credibly. Btw, this is why I rarely put any stock into the traditional "breadcrumbs" that people like to drop. It's easy for scum to go back and retroactively assign meaning to a random or oddly phrased post.

@OS-
The way you buddied people who were "obv-town" at the time and then turned around when they pushed you made it clear you were cult. Night actions (even assuming you were lying scum), made it clear you were not cult recruiter. By D3, it was obvious that Ludi was CR, and you were in a position where you

should

have realized it, however you didn't even seem willing to consider it. All that together kinda gave you away as some flavor of cult that was not cult recruiter. It probably helped that mafia had most of the rest of the game figured out, but town should have seen you as some flavor anti-town. Your D3 play also seemed a lot less rational and a lot more desperate than your D1 and D2 play (even ignoring the explosion you had with BB).

@BB-
You weren't seen as a threat by mafia. You were too random and too willing to chase minor leads while ignoring the major stuff.

@Mods-
I think a much better balancing option than Toog as mafia bonus killer would be the mafia team as a whole gaining a bonus kill when the white lanterns activate. At that point in the game, with cult either dealt with or near dealt with, town doesn't need the double day as much, and a double night kill (especially one flavored as Sinestro becoming a White Lantern...) would return that balance without screwing up the early day game play.

@NPIAU-
I've talked my way out of lots of lynches, but this would have been impossible.
-Toast was absolutely set on Vezok-town since D1. Nothing was gonna change that. He would probably be the ideal NK (assuming Vezok screwed up and didn't delay me).
-Tans was already anti-Kast since WLC's flip. Hiplop flipping vanillizer

might

have pacified him, but after a Vezok lynch, he would have come right back at me.
-BB was random, but the mod answer to his vanillizer question convinced him that Tans was town (it was likely a misunderstanding of the mods, but still it's impossible to argue with a player who thinks he has mod confirmation of something and won't reconsider). He might have allowed a Vezok lynch before a Kast lynch, but he wasn't going to allow a Tans lynch.

I could probably ignore Vezok, and potentially get a Vezok lynch first...but then I'd get lynched immediately after.

@Muffin-
I was pretty sure you would use your role on me. There was no way I was going to do the kill, and we wanted to use your strong assumption that mafia couldn't kill AND act on the same night. If we let you live and killed BB instead, then would you have supported a Vezok/KJ lynch afterward (since essentially I would be *cleared*)?

@Hiplop-
There was really nothing for you to do after KJ claimed "factional investigation results" on you. Asking KJ to shut up just made it sound like he was right. Not asking him to shut up

also

would give truth to his claims. It was kinda lose-lose for you. Also getting active suddenly would have been a change to your behavior (similar to Ludi and Vezok...).

What I don't get was why you claimed a "town" on Toast. It's not a scum claim per se...but it did nothing to save you.

Mafia did a great job crippling the Anti-Cult roles in their NKs / mis-lynches. Seriously ...

Mafia did a good job crippling the Cult roles too. Crippling anti-cult early game = town cred when we kill cult in later game without just following anti-cult roles and letting them gain the cred. I get it if you're unhappy you got robbed of being there to help town, but the implication that mafia was somehow doing the wrong thing at that point in the game just doesn't hold up.

[Kast]

@BB-
Oh yeah, also it was more a "we don't want BB dead and people thinking, BB suspected Kast so Kast killed him to avoid getting caught", than a "we want BB to investigate Kast". If you got a guilty on Hiplop, I think we could have done a fair job spinning out a redirection possibility (potentially even Vezok as redirector GF).

[SleepyKrew]

/o\ /o <
-------

[Andrius]

you forget ofc that vanillzing people confirms then as non-scum
anywho SK wins the page
Kast and hiplop are now bros for life.

[GreyICE]

you forget ofc that vanillzing people confirms then as non-scum
anywho SK wins the page
Kast and hiplop are now bros for life.

Huh?

It confirms them as non-mafia scum, perhaps. A player who becomes cult recruit is vanillized.

It was fully anticipated the cult would start taking advantage of this eventually, as well as the town being like -_- about the entire thing.

[danakillsu]

@Mods-
I think a much better balancing option than Toog as mafia bonus killer would be the mafia team as a whole gaining a bonus kill when the white lanterns activate. At that point in the game, with cult either dealt with or near dealt with, town doesn't need the double day as much, and a double night kill (especially one flavored as Sinestro becoming a White Lantern...) would return that balance without screwing up the early day game play.

It's not a bad idea, and is creative in its own way, but I happen to think it's rather boring in practice. Like you said here, in the end, it pretty much takes away the double days advantage at the point where the cult is no longer a major threat. That's no fun at all...
Plus, I wanted to give the cult SOME kind of chance after letting the white rings come into play. An extra mafia kill flying around would have totally ended it for them. I preferred to just give the mafia two extra kills to be used at their discretion, since their fakeclaims were intentionally worse than the cult's. And making them janitor kills just made it that much more fun.