Brightest Day Mafia, Part 1 - GAME OVER

[ToastyToast]

@Kast:
Aren't you in the exact same position as vezok? If you believe there to be a godfather, you cannot simply base it on an innocent result.
Vezok has some confirmed actions. You have both been the target of a cop investigation, and both gave a "not mafia" result.
So, why, other than godfather speculation, do you think vezok is scum? Vezok plays like he always plays, as far as I can see. So what makes it so obvious? What makes vezok the obvious godfather when compared to yourself?

[Blackberry]

How would Hiplop hammering Vezok be an auto-mafia win?

Mafia didn't even know there was a cult for sure, because the hint at a cult was in the mafia's kill falvor. Mafia would still have to survive another lynch so they'd want to stay under the radar. Kast, do you not think Vezok/Hiplop is a combination?\

@Kast - you say I am ignoring problem parts, what parts am I ignoring? You're ignoring the fact OS knew he was roleblocked Night 1 and Vezok claimed that roleblock. You're also ignoring the part where Tans targetted Andrius Night 1 - which you saw - what is your explanation for why mafia targeted eachother Night 1?

...

I thought Pinata might mean if we had lynched him earlier he would sent out the rings ahead of time (break him, presents come out). Especially since once rings WERE sent out he changed roles anyways and lost the Pinata part .

[Blackberry]

Unvote

Just to consider.

Hiplop needs to post & his investigation result.

[Blackberry]

Let me ask some mod questions - just a second XD.

[hiplop]

toastytoast, is town.

[Blackberry]

wtf is wrong with you I already knew that

[Blackberry]

Hiplop - are you scumhunting?

...

I feel like Tans/Hiplop/Vezok are just going 'lalala'

and Me/Toasty/Kast are the only ones giving a f#ck about what happens

[tanstalas]

Hiplop - are you scumhunting?

...

I feel like Tans/Hiplop/Vezok are just going 'lalala'

and Me/Toasty/Kast are the only ones giving a f#ck about what happens

lalala

[hiplop]

im giving a fuck :\ i have to send in at twilight, before you told us youve checked toasty.

[ToastyToast]

no one's checked me. there were just better options is his point

[Blackberry]

--_--

I meant:

Toasty is the only person who I think is very town anyways because of his behavior. With Nik dead, we now know every single person Andrius voted was non-mafia (Except Toasty) which leads me to believe Andrius doesn't bus and thus Toasty is non-mafia.

Tans is who you should have checked.

...

You HAVE to send in at twilight? That sounds like a lie...

[hiplop]

mid-day cop, I send in before the lynch happens

[tanstalas]

Mid day would have been before the first lynch?

I call bulshit

[Blackberry]

toastytoast, is town.

Just to clarify, your result is 'Town'?

What are your different results possible?

[Kast]

@Toast-
Vezok and I are only in a similar position in that Vezok and I both have investigation results saying we are not mafia.

-In order for Tans OR Kast to be vanillizer, it would require Vezok as a mafia buddy. The same does not hold the other way around.

-Vezok has claimed anti-town actions (N2 block claimed Tracker Kast, N3 block claimed WL PR Nikanor).
-Vezok's claimed action points at me as not mafia, or at the least, as confirmed not vanillizer AND confirmed not mafia killer on N2.

-Additionally, Vezok's botched early game claim is suspicious (part of it can be chalked up to Vezok being Vezok, but it also wouldn't be the first time Vezok played the "I'm lost and confused" card to get out of a messed up fake claim).
-His voting record and post history also show a complete lack of scumhunting (or really complete lack of game posts...) and avoidance of almost every scum wagon. There's also some cues where he followed Andy's vote, though that's not as damning.

The switch from Ludi to Subliminal was

very

scummy for that matter.

Do you really think Sinestro is a delayer?

Btw, this might actually be Vezok telling us we're stupid for believing his delayer fake claim. He might actually be slipping that he knows Sinestro is in fact NOT a delayer and is actually some other role (?GF-Vanillizer?).

KJ's push to lynch Vezok only makes sense if he expected Vezok to flip mafia. Anything else would result in his lynch (and even then he wouldn't be completely "in the clear").

@BB-

How would Hiplop hammering Vezok be an auto-mafia win?

IF Kast and Hiplop are mafia, THEN hammering Vezok would have resulted in a town delayer flip that confirms Kast and Tans as non-Vanillizer. The confirmation along with the info that Nikanor was JKed on N1 and Delayed on N3 (the two nights with no vanillizing) would have been confirmation of KJ and resulted in his lynch (ultimately it was enough to lynch him even WITHOUT Vezok flipping).

Kast, do you not think Vezok/Hiplop is a combination?

Vezok/Hiplop is a possibility, I'll have to think about that. It would explain why Hiplop was reluctant to lynch Vezok earlier and lynched KJ first instead. I'd say it might explain his investigation change...except that I can't see why Hiplop-mafia would do something like that when he could easily fake a guilty on Tans.

You're ignoring the fact OS knew he was roleblocked Night 1 and Vezok claimed that roleblock.

Vezok claimed the delay BEFORE OS claimed his action failed (#1048 & #1765). But that's not actually required. Vezok could certainly be a mafia GF with a delay ability (though the delay ability is doubtful given Andy's confirmed RB). If he's faking the delay, then it also explains the confusion that everyone seems to be having with too many blocking abilities on any team (Andy Mafia Blocker, ??? Mafia Vanillizer, OS Cult JoAT with blocking, Muffin town JoAT with blocking, TT town Jail Keeper, Tans ??? Ability Thief with blocking).

You're also ignoring the part where Tans targetted Andrius Night 1 - which you saw - what is your explanation for why mafia targeted eachother Night 1?

This is a good point. It does imply Tans as non-mafia. Off hand, thoughts that come to mind:
-Tans might be a mafia permanent role copier a la your prior speculation.
-Tans might be a regular ability copier instead of an ability thief (so he might have been copying Andy's RB to give mafia a second block). If this is the case, it could also explain the double vanillize on N2 but no double vanillize on N4 (ie. Vezok is Sinestro, GF, Vanillizer and Tans copied him N2, but N4 Tans was killing while Vezok was vanillizing).
-Similarly, Tans might could be a mafia Enhancer (mirror role to Kilowog just like the mirrored town and mafia 1xPGOs and mirrored roleblocker/redirector).

-Semi-related point, I think it was you that mentioned mafia would have a similar WL-Fake Claim if Cult had one. Not sure how likely that is given that none of the flipped mafia have mentioned any clue about the WL abilities (Toog/Apok/GW didn't even indicate understanding the concept of the WLs). If there were any scum WLs, then why didn't any of the lynched mafia hint/use a WL fake claim to avoid lynch earlier?

The big point against Hiplop/Vezok mafia though is still why did KJ protect Tans? The only thing I can see that explains that is if Tans was his recruit (and thus he knew Vezok would flip mafia).

@Hiplop-

toastytoast, is town.

WTF?!? Is that your investigation?

Toast was obv-town >_>. You should have investigated Tans. Y'know, like you said you would...

ill check tans, then.

-When did you actually send in your investigation?
-Why did you investigate Toast?
-Do you actually know what is going on in this game?

@BB/Tans-

MIDDAY COP, on the moment of the first lynch, i get to i vestigate someone

It is technically consistent with what he claimed before,

except for his target

.

@Lynch-
No matter how it's sliced (Hiplop or Tans), I can't really see anyone as a partner except for Vezok. Hell, even for a Kast or TT mafia, it pretty much requires/strongly implicates Vezok as a buddy.

(I guess only a BB mafia would open Vezok as an unlikely partner)

We need a mafia lynch. Vezok's the best bet for covering bases. Game play, votes, claims, interactions with other people (what little there is at least), all point as Vezok mafia.

[hiplop]

VOTE: vezok

it makes sense?

[Kast]

Hmm the amount of action modifiers (Block/Redirect/etc.) is kinda excessive.
Flipped/Confirmed:
Andy -Mafia Roleblocker
OS - Cult JoAT (w/Blocking)
Muffin - Town JoAT (w/Blocking)
LLD - Town Redirector

Claimed:
??? - Mafia Vanillizer (potentially mafia JoAT for symmetry)
Vezok - ??? Delayer
Tans - ??? Ability Thief
TT - Town JK

Counting LLD that makes 8 of 24 players with claimed blocking/redirection of some sort and 5 of them are flipped or claimed town abilities.

EBWOP:
@Hiplop-
It's hard to tell if that's genuine agreement or if that's, "I need to agree to save myself".

[Kast]

@Hiplop-
Also, you didn't answer my questions

(or BB's...although I'm pretty sure that was answered previously...)

:
-When did you send in your day cop?
-Why did you switch to Toast?
-Are you actually paying attention to the game?

[hiplop]

sent them in b4 lynch

Toasty i thought was the right move :\ for the night actions and all that stuff

yes

[Kast]

@TT-

If you believe there to be a godfather, you cannot simply base it on an innocent result.

Actually didn't address this part; but the simple point is, it's not that I believe there is a godfather therefore Vezok is mafia; that's backwards. Vezok is probably mafia, but since there is an innocent on him, he must be GF if he is mafia.

@BB-
Don't want this to get lost:
-Did you check with mods whether a mafia member who got recruited by cult would investigate as "Mafia" or "Not-Mafia"? That could be the reason mafia didn't kill/vanilla you, in the event that Ludi recruited mafia before he got lynched and so cult controlled the kill on Muffin.

[Kast]

@Hiplop-
This is like pulling teeth...
-At around what time did you send it in (e.g. did you send it in after posting something, after reading someone else's post, etc.)?
--Does before lynch mean you submitted your investigation before hammering?

[hiplop]

after hammer. During the time when DEKEZ had the thread closed

[Blackberry]

I have mod confirmation that vanillialization happens AFTER roleblocking... i.e, there is no more recruited players. Regardless, I ALSO have confirmation that if there WAS a culted-person (just one) that the only way he/she wins is if he is one of the last two players standing AND it would result in a JOINT win.

=D

No more cult worries, only mafia worries.

[Blackberry]

Oh, and at Kast, I would get a non-mafia if it was mafia - turned - cult.

In other words, if a mafia-turned-cult happened, it is in OUR advantage, because now they can ONLY win if they are in the final two with a TOWN member, not a mafia member.

But, as I said, roleblocking happens before vanillialization (and before delaying). So toasty's roleblock went through. I think... I guess I didn't technically ask about Jailkeeping, but vanillializing DOES go last. Let me check, I think that's what it says.

[Blackberry]

Vanillialization resolves after a lot of things (redirection, roleblocking, protection) but before killing.