Double-Dip Mafia, Game Over

[Ranmaru]

Why exactly have you had such a town read on Amrun all game?

The AtE where you insult me. Regardless you shouldn't be sad because we needed you to claim.

[Empking]

Amrun is stupidly town. WLC, that means move your vote. To small.

LK: wrt WLC, I trust Amrun.

You had quite a strong town read on Amrun all game.

Am I missing something?

-----------------
I can't remermber why I decided Amrun wass town.
How is insulting you AtE?

[Ranmaru]

No, you aren't missing anything. I just brought that up again because Amrun was your strongest read. Did you have any other reads as strong as that?

You insulted me twice. You don't usually resort to insults or emotional display, so I assumed AtE. There was no need. You were scummy, I requested a claim and threatened with hammer.

[Empking]

No, you aren't missing anything. I just brought that up again because Amrun was your strongest read. Did you have any other reads as strong as that?

No.

You insulted me twice. You don't usually resort to insults or emotional display, so I assumed AtE. There was no need. You were scummy, I requested a claim and threatened with hammer.

Yes but how was I appealing to your emotions?

[imaginality]

Back now. Good to see the deadline's suspended. There's a lot of good content being generated at the moment.

Imaginality, show me how you pushed for a kunkstar lynch.

I'm not asking because I'm lazy. I want to see what you will say.

[...]and kunkstar - who I didn't think was scummy 'til now, but unless WLC flips scum (doesn't seem likely) this hammer is definitely really bad.

That was what I said during twilight after he'd quick-hammered.* It's not like I only leapt on his wagon when it was inevitable he'd be lynched.

Vote: kunkstar7

It's hard to think of anything that can excuse quick-hammering a player who was V/LA and hadn't claimed.

I think kunkstar7 should be lynched today ahead of DGB since he's still scummy under either scenario.

Oh hey, Empking's vote has put kunkstar7 at L-1. No quick-hammers please.

@kunkstar7: care to claim?

Those were my only two posts during the one real-time day that D3 lasted (aside from a one-liner when DGB fake-claimed lynched). I think it's pretty clear that I wanted a kunkstar7 lynch. Now, it's true got lynched in less than a day, so his lynch didn't require much pushing - but if people had started backing off from the lynch, for sure I would've pushed harder. Look at how hard I've pushed DGB today - in part that's because of her quickhammer yesterday, which just reeked of already knowing kunkstar7 was scum.

Also in the latter post I pointed out smalls calling kunkstar scum but only voting DGB as further evidence against kunkstar (and evidence against smalls).


*At the time of writing that, I thought the quick-hammer might have been less scummy if it was on scum rather than town, but then when it came to DGB's quickhammer, I realised that it's a scummy action either way - a townie unsure of the player's alignment, however suspicious, should wait for the claim, just in case. (What if kunkstar7 had claimed mason?)

[DrippingGoofball]

I thought about before but the reason Imiginality is town because scum (DGB) lied in order to try and get him lynched.
Amrun has been a strong town read for so long that I don't even know what set it off.

But you're scum and I'm lying to get YOU lynched so.........

[DrippingGoofball]

*At the time of writing that, I thought the quick-hammer might have been less scummy if it was on scum rather than town, but then when it came to DGB's quickhammer, I realised that it's a scummy action either way - a townie unsure of the player's alignment, however suspicious, should wait for the claim, just in case. (What if kunkstar7 had claimed mason?)

No. His mason would have claimed for him earlier.

I saw evidence he was claim stalling.

Plus, he had hammered a townie pre-claim!

AND his iso was scummy to boot!

Do you know how hard it is to get a scum lynched after a PR fake-claim? They also out real roles. And they can really mess with us.

[DrippingGoofball]

Look at how hard I've pushed DGB today...

Hey.

I'm pushing

you

hard.

One of you or Empking is scum.

FO SHO

If not both.

One of you is a semi-convincing liar.

Which one?

Why aren't you bus'ing Empking, imaginality? He is full of it.

Also, where the heck is Tar?

I'm kinda worried, because if the scum moves first, they might be the deciding vote. I know they can't move on me, because they're already voting me. But again, one of my suspect is town, and that town suspect might be hammered by scum.

Town is going to have to beat the scum to the hammer.

[DrippingGoofball]

I don't know what this means, alignment-wise, but it's strange how Empking is not defending himself, he's only attacking his attacker.

Gotta get off the compy now...

Toodles!

[DrippingGoofball]

Back for one last thing.

Calling for a player's head to roll for hammering pre-fakeclaiming scum IS TOTALLY SOMETHING I WOULD MYSELF DO AS SCUM.

[Amrun]

That amount of push is null for me, imag. You waited until kunkstar did something so scummy it couldn't be ignored - it's possible a townie noticed this late, but it's also possible for a smart, pro-active buddy (which you are, if you're scum).

Thoughts on empking, imag?

[imaginality]

Oh, I agree with you about my being on the kunkstar-wagon being null - and I haven't tried to claim it's a big point in my favour. What I objected to was DGB describing my D3 play as "softly protective of kunkstar despite his horrid hammer the day before," when it clearly wasn't protective of him. She painted my actions that day as scummy rather than null.

As for not going after him before - yes, I was wrong with my D1-D2 townread on kunkstar7, obviously. Still, I do feel his posts those days were fairly good (until the infamous quickhammer), and when Pom/DGB and smalls in particular were both setting off so many alarm bells, I was more focused on getting obvscum lynched than digging around more widely.


On Empking: he didn't do much if anything D1-D3, but his posts today have actually read pretty well to me. He sounds genuine in the way he's questioned DGB (e.g. iso 85ish), his reasons for suspecting Quilford (e.g. iso90-92), and his frustration at having to claim VT.

I don't want to bring this back to DGB and me, but it's relevant to quote her on Empking:

When I attack him, I get short quips back. That's town?

I thought this line of DGB's about Empking was weak considering she'd never made a case on him at that point - her idea of 'attacking' him was just calling him scum, not challenging him on anything in particular he'd done or posted.

I think Empking's playstyle precludes the commission of any kind of scumtell. The only thing I have on him is the Scumputer.

The entirety of DGB's case on Empking as I see it:
* Scumputer
* Ranmaru thinks Empking's town
* links to kunkstar7

What annoys me about this is that DGB

only brought up Empking's links to kunkstar7 really recently

. Before that, she said "The only think I have on him is the Scumputer." If she was genuinely scumhunting, why didn't she go look at his links with kunkstar and show us them earlier? It makes me think she's been trying to appear more townie because of being vote leader with deadline approaching, rather than genuine in her scumhunting. (Contrast, for example, how I explained why my suspicions of both her, Crazy, and smalls were strengthened by the kunkstar scumflip.)

So, another part of my reason for feeling Empking's town is the same as his reason for thinking I'm town: we both think DGB's insincere in her attacks on the other.

If, hypothetically, DGB, smalls and Crazy are all off the table today, for lynches, I'd rather lynch Quilford over Empking, by a significant amount. I don't get the uber-town feel from his claim post that others seem to.

[Quilford]

AAAAAAAAAARGH

I get the feeling that DGB, imag and emp are all town and that the scum is Amrun and someone else

fuck my fucking gut

[Quilford]

nooooo

Amrun thought WLC was scummy when nobody else did and I did too

and there has to be at least one scum on DGB's wagon otherwise she'd have been hammered many times over

[imaginality]

DGB hasn't been hammered

because she's scum.

Buuut...

...if DGB

is

town, Amrun is a possibility. Considering how much time Amrun has been spending agreeing with DGB today, I can see her choosing not to hammer her. If someone else hammers, Amrun's off the wagon and looking good. If no-one hammers, the chances are another townie gets lynched anyhow, and DGB has a townread on Amrun.

Looking at her play towards smalls (who, for reasons stated before, I consider the most likely player to be scum if either DGB or Crazy are town), it fits:
* early distancing vote (iso 8) followed by a switch off him onto the Hiraki wagon (iso 26)
* criticising votes on smalls (iso 41, 53)
* iso62 "I think I have a scumread on smalls. But it COULD be derptown."
* votes smalls very uncommittedly in iso72
* whenever she's been voting him both D1 and today, she hasn't really pressed him, just put a vote on him and then unvoted again

And her remark of "Kunk, how could you hammer like that?" in iso53 sounds a little like it could be scum dismayed at their buddy.

I still think DGB+Crazy is by far the most likely pairing. But I'll put smalls + Amrun as my preferred alternative theory now, ahead of smalls + Quilford.

[Amrun]

Why would I waste my life questioning a player who isn't here?

[Tarhalindur]

Where the hell was I? I was setting up a Mind Screw then rereading the game because this isn't adding up.

Until I noticed something
- kunk was CONSISTENTLY voting Pom (DGB) and Crazy prior to lynch, unvoting mainly to quickhammer.
- DGB's been consistently trying to discredit - but NOT LYNCH - Ranmaru, even before the Mason claim.

DGB's annoyingly hard to read (now that she's changed her scum meta, it used to be easy as sin to spot), but these pretty scumputer pics just showed up in Mafia Invictus and her play is increasingly reminding me of her play there.

Crazy read town at first, but his reaction to D3 is bad and so is his reaction to my push against the Crazy wagon.

My running theory: kunk was distancing from his partners like no tomorrow. At LEAST one of {DGB, Crazy} is scum. I'm willing to bet it's both.

Unvote: Amrun, Vote: Crazy

Come on, somebody needs to put the last vote on one of those two.

Outside chances of scum: Amrun (gut), Quilford (reaction to kunk hammer)

[Tarhalindur]

@Eli: I can understand that it can be kind of hard to come to a scum read on someone that you originally had as town but how does he just get a total pass on refusing to claim??

How does somebody at L-1 get to go, "Hahaah I'll claim if somebody ELSE asks me! "??

Hiraki Reads

Pomegranate, iamausername, smallpeoples343, [Low Key], Amrun, Ameliaslay, RedCoyote, Eli all say he's scum.

Crazy

, Empking, Imagine,

Kunkstar

,

Ranmaru

, Wey all say he's town.

Funny how almost all of my scum reads are not on the Hiraki wagon. I suspect that Imagine or Wey can support a Hiraki lynch here. The problem is we haven't heard from them lately.

Hmm, I wonder why [Low Key] got killed N1.

(Snails was running with this line of reasoning D2 - one of two HUGE reasons I have a townread on that slot - but forgot about it.)

[Empking]

Why is Ran red?

[Tarhalindur]

Because they were red in the original quoted post. Didn't say [Low Key] had all three of his scumreads correct (I'd have a strong townread on Ran even WITHOUT the claim), but two was enough to threaten the scum.

Still figuring out which one of {DGB, Crazy} is scum if kunk was only bussing one of two buddies. (Note that kunk had a "Hiraki today, Crazy tomorrow" outlook... leaning towards DGB's slot being the sure bus.)

Next question?

---

DGB, why ignore Amrun's scumputer totals? (I think I know what you're going to say, but I want to double check.)

[Quilford]

DGB, what was your claim again?

[imaginality]

Sure. I'm a vanilla townie. Have a ball.

[Quilford]

You know what?

I can't look past Pom's unfulfilled promises and subsequent replacement. I can't look past her odd jump onto the WLC wagon. I can't look past DGB's constant, relentless AtEing and the fact that she has no meta for it. I can't look past her suggestions that she should be NK'd, not lynched. I can't look past her claiming vanilla multiple times when there is no 'vanilla' in the Townie role PM. I can't look past her constantly suggesting that she is wrong about at least one of her scum reads. I can't look past the fact that she is linked with so many other players. I can't look back that she uses completely objective analysis in the form of the Scumputer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DGB

I hope we have scum.

[imaginality]

Unvote: Amrun, Vote: Crazy

Crazy with three votes now? Sweet, I'm up for that wagon.

Unvote: smallpeoples343, vote: Crazy

P-edit: Oh, even better. I'm sure we've caught scum here.

[Ranmaru]

Man. You guys don't even know. I over slept, and woke up with "OMG DEAD LINE PASSED WAT IF WE NO LYNCHED FUUUUU"

and then I remembered "Oh... deadline suspension, hehe ;o"

So yeah.

I could deff go for a crazy lynch. I would have hammahd empy earlier possibly.