The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

[ooba]

Yes I agree he would have been hit as SK\Town. What I meant was he would definitely have been killed if he was town - so he' scum (meaning Mafia or SK).

I didn't notice the male characters bit. Plus it's not like I kept the SW queen part of it to myself - if that's what you're implying. (425, 756, 882)

[Sathoris]

Uh, that's pretty irrelevant to whether we need a cross-kill...town has 2 lynches left tops, and an SK ++ RC's pre-game discussion of the set-up => 3 scum left, so we can't win without a cross-kill.

If you or Ooba is an SK and 2 normal scum remain and the SK has no more kills, I think it's impossible for town to win.

I'm not sure I'm following you...

[ooba]

I PM'd him to ask for a PM, and he said it was lost when his browser crashed, but all I would have gotten was flavor + kill, so it seems like I wouldn't have gotten any Watcher-type hints (which surprises me).

Was compiling night actions. What do you mean "flavor+kill" and no "Watcher-type" hints?

[Iecerint]

@ Ooba -- Mafia is blind to whether he's town or SK...so I don't see why explaining something verbally on D5 would explain why he wasn't killed before that.

No, I'm aware that you mentioned Snow Queen several times. The reason I asked you was that I thought the reason was that it might have been Queen/Huntsman/Ursula before fitz's flip (which is when I think when the exchange happened), which would have justified your reason to not correct me (since correction wouldn't have been necessary). I wanted to see if you would come up with that as the explanation or what.

@ Sath -- I don't know what exactly is hard to understand. If you think I'm making a logical error somewhere, please make it clearer. I'm basically saying that 3 > 2, so we need a cross-kill given that there are 3 total scum left. This applies (as something that we need) regardless of whether it is likely that we will get it.

P-edit:

RC said that my flavor would have consisted only of a reveal for practical purposes because he didn't want to reproduce the flavor he had written. I used the word "kill" to avoid quoting directly from the PM.

When I've targeted players in the past, I've gotten hints about what they did that night. For example, fitz was absent in the first part of the flavor, probably because he had some kind of night action that night. Kast was sleeping during his flavor. I guess "watcher" is the wrong word, but it seems like I can normally get some limited information about whether whichever player targeted someone, etc. I used the word "watcher" because I'm going to the person's sleeping place and watching that rather than literally following the person to whomever they target (i.e. even though it's not confirmed that i would hypothetically see people targeting whomever yet, and my role PM description makes specific note of neither of those aspects AFAICR).

[Fate]

WHERE'S MY FUCKING APOLOGY

[ooba]

Actions (Confirmed, Doubtful, Claimed, My guess at scum actions)

N1

Amrun stolen "RB" from Robo -> RB'd ABR
Robo did nothing because he was robbed
Kdub -> Motivated LLD (Blocked)
LLD -> No acton
Fate -> Busdrive Kast <-> ooba

Fitz -> JK'd Fate (Claimed - My guess is that he was powerless since somebody else is the scum RB)

ooba -> No acton
Sathoris -> No acton
Kast -> Busdrive Kast <-> Kdub
ABR -> (Blocked) Did nothing
Iece -> Investigated Fitz -> Got "Tinkerbell"

Scum -> Blocked Kdub
Scum -> Killed Robo

N2

Mass Roleblock

N3

Kdub -> Motivated Amrun (Blocked)
Fate -> Redirected Iece -> Kast

Amrun -> ??? (Plan was for her to steal from ABR)

Iece -> Investigated Kast -> Got "LRRH"
Kast -> Redirect Fate -> Fate (Blocked)
ooba -> No acton
Sathoris -> No acton
ABR -> Mod Flavor Message ability

Scum -> Blocked Kdub
Scum -> Killed Amrun

N4

Kdub -> ??? (Mostly No action)

ooba -> No acton
Sathoris -> No acton
ABR -> Do nothing
Iece -> Investigate Kdub -> ????
Kast -> Commute

Scum -> Blocked ???
Scum -> Killed Kdub

Analysis

Kast's block on N3 is one block too many as mentioned before. Not sure what alignment - town "survivor" claim hints at SK but not town for sure.
N1 tells us that Iece isn't the scum roleblocker
N3 tells us that ABR isn't the scum roleblocker
So one of Kast\Sathoris is the scum roleblocker. If Kast is SK, Sathoris is the scum roleblocker. Otherwise, could be either. Now analyzing play from D1 to spot links ..

---

@ Ooba -- Mafia is blind to whether he's town or SK...so I don't see why explaining something verbally on D5 would explain why he wasn't killed before that.

No, I'm aware that you mentioned Snow Queen several times. The reason I asked you was that I thought the reason was that it might have been Queen/Huntsman/Ursula before fitz's flip (which is when I think when the exchange happened), which would have justified your reason to not correct me (since correction wouldn't have been necessary). I wanted to see if you would come up with that as the explanation or what.

I have no clue what you're trying to say? Kast ..
Claimed BP on D2
N2 - Mass roleblock
N3 - Had claimed Self bus drive the day before
N4 - Had no reason to survive so he did need to change his story to reflect why he survived the night?

When we lynched Fitz, I was sure the scum team was Queen\Ursula\TWOTW with fakeclaims swapped.

P-edit: Learn to use night actions for maximum benefit

[Iecerint]

Also, don't make cases on yourself and hammer townreads.

@ Ooba -- But his explanation doesn't do anything to address why he survived the night. Kdub died; his Commuter claim doesn't interact with that in any way. Unless you're positing that this happened:

Kdub doubles Kast
Scum kills Kast
Kast commutes

And that that somehow led Kdub to die in spite of Kast surviving s/p commuting...

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote

-________-

[Kast]

@Iec-

Spoiler: Brush up on what the plan was before you start making bad assumptions

I'm talking about N3, not N4. N3 was when we were going to test your busdrive (which you actually could not perform) by having me investigate you while you busdrove me to someone else. Amrun was also involved somehow; can't recall how. Anyway, since you could not busdrive N3, youTown should/would have said HEY GUYS WAIT UP THIS WON'T WORK and then made something up about wanting to make yourself a less likely target (since there must've been SOME reason for lying about your role in a game where we were publically using set-up /outguess to find scum). That way,

I could have investigated someone else rather than roleblocked-Kast

, and we wouldn't base our analysis on incorrect data.

The plan for N3 was Kast bus himself with someone else. Iec investigate Kast. Amrun roleblock/thief from ABR. Kdub indicated doubling on either Iec or Amrun. Fate claimed no power but would try to redirect. Redirecting scum-Fate would kill scum and get me confirmed. I didn't

PLAN on getting RBed

, and as it is, it let us move on to lynching scum instead of random flavor speculation AND it stopped me from having to claim my commute/hide abilities (which could be why we only had one death last night).

@Ooba-

Town survivor is just something you come up with to explain a no-kill on you yesterday.

This is the second time you implied that survivor somehow is unkillable. Survivor means I LOSE THE GAME IF I DIE, even if MY FACTION WINS. You keep falsely claiming that I'm unkillable or trying to explain away a lack of death; sounds like Ooba-scum is slipping his failed kill attempt on me last night and not reading my actual claim properly.

Play implications
- All three of you have pushed ABR as a potential lynch. All pushes have been genuine and not indicative of a bus. (Sathoris for the latter part of the day four hunted for a SK (A huge Mafia tell) and said ABR was a most prob SK.)

To be clear, you are saying ABR is probably town because his play has been so scummy that all 3 living players have genuinely/legitimately attacked him for being scummy. Clarify where/if I misunderstood this and clarify HOW does a scummy player being attacked for being scummy indicate that the player is NOT SCUM?

-Re: Flavor clear
I don't think you see the circular reasoning behind your flavor clear for ABR. He has demonstrated that he (or at least someone on his team) can write or modify the flavor. You're using the flavor that he could have submitted himself as evidence that he is unlikely to be one of the scum characters that he submitted. Trusting scum to tell you that they are not scum is...bad...

Also, you're clearing ABR based on WWotW not being Ursula or the Wicked Queen, but that would mean, according to your amended claim, that Red Riding Hood is mafia, but Red Riding Hood is ALSO not Ursula or the Wicked Queen.

and we have one more guy for the 10% rule.

You've clearly read and understand the roles in tBatB1. The 90%/10% is the exact same mechanism that RC used before, and it's a % chance for the ability to succeed/fail. Claiming it's based on misinformation roles is a pretty implausible stretch. Also, are you claiming that BOTH Tinkerbell AND Red Riding Hood are false positives?

Side note: why is investigating scum as town a false positive instead of a false negative? Investigations generally find scum. Seems like you're arguing from a scum perspective.

Going through with the bus-lynch and surviving till the end looked easy (I am a BP so don't have to keep inventing new stuff to explain why I haven't been killed)

If I had claimed my commute, you probably would have won already. As it is, you failed your kill last night. Now if you don't lynch the SK (aka Sathoris) you

can't

win since SK claiming 1-shot BP is pretty obviously a lie.

@Iec/Sathoris-
It's either 3T/2M or 2T/2M/1SK. In the former case, we just need to lynch scum twice and we win. In the latter case, we need to lynch Mafia today and need scum to cross kill (or at least NOT kill town), so we have a chance to lynch scum for the win. There's a chance, but it's not good.

@Sathoris-
If you're SK, you might as well claim.

[Albert B. Rampage]

3 players attack me based on flavor so I'm scum?

What are your arguments?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Why was I a major proponent for massclaim if I had the shittiest claim of all?

[Kast]

@Ooba-
Explain again why ABR can't be the scum roleblocker. You've so far just brushed over this and claimed he can't be since he's shown he can modify the night kill flavor.

[Iecerint]

The plan for N3 was Kast bus himself with someone else. Iec investigate Kast. Amrun roleblock/thief from ABR. Kdub indicated doubling on either Iec or Amrun. Fate claimed no power but would try to redirect. Redirecting scum-Fate would kill scum and get me confirmed. I didn't

PLAN on getting RBed

, and as it is, it let us move on to lynching scum instead of random flavor speculation AND it stopped me from having to claim my commute/hide abilities (which could be why we only had one death last night).

Your being roleblocked is irrelevant AFAICT. Since you'd already used your one-shot bus-drive N1, your ability use N3 (you claimed redirecting Fate IIRC) would have looked like you could not actually self-busdrive, and you would have been under avoidable suspicion the following day. (Things ended up being different, because your being roleblocked covered up the possibility that you could not self-busdrive.)

The flavor speculation was not random; whether coincidental or not, fitz was lynched on the basis of flavor spec.

If I am missing your point somehow, re-explain.

[Iecerint]

@Ooba- Explain again why ABR can't be the scum roleblocker. You've so far just brushed over this and claimed he can't be since he's shown he can modify the night kill flavor.

The assumption is that the scum roleblocker cannot both roleblock and use other abilities. ABR used his flavor-modification ability that night, so the claim is that he is not the roleblocker.

It's possible that a ABR is the scum roleblocker and a scumfriend used the flavor-modification ability, which Ooba does not really mention, but ye know.

[Kast]

@ABR-
-You've been attacked for being scummy in ADDITION TO your scummy claim.
-You're misremembering if you think you were a major proponent of massclaiming. At best you were someone who agreed when your scum-buddy proposed it. Then you participated. That's it.

Your being roleblocked is irrelevant AFAICT.

Since you'd already used your one-shot bus-drive N1, your ability use N3 (you claimed redirecting Fate IIRC) would have looked like you could not actually self-busdrive, and you would have been under avoidable suspicion the following day.

(Things ended up being different, because your being roleblocked covered up the possibility that you could not self-busdrive.)

The flavor speculation was not random; whether coincidental or not, fitz was lynched on the basis of flavor spec.

If I am missing your point somehow, re-explain.

Try thinking

this part

through one more time:
-Kast redirect's Fate to Fate
-Iec investigates Kast and sees that he is Little Red Riding Hood, Town Beloved Princess, JoAT. This confirms Kast to Iec
-Scum-Fate kills scum-Fate, flip confirms Kast to EVERYONE

Ideally, Iec realizes why I didn't claim my hide/commute ability and plays along so that scum wastes their NK on N4.

How does ANY of this put me under ANY suspicion? We're down scum and it doesn't affect any of the other night plans.

it let us

move on to lynching scum

instead of random flavor speculation

The flavor speculation was not random; whether coincidental or not, fitz was lynched on the basis of flavor spec.

Fitz lynch was D3. N3 actions had no effect on D3 lynch. N3 actions stopped the silly, "Kast hasn't been scummy but since he claimed to be a Princess but Red Riding Hood isn't a Princess, he must be scum" flavor speculation (well, Ooba's still making that assumption but just isn't voicing the steps he took to get there anymore).

@Iec-
It's also possible the scum NK is a factional ability and can be done by

in addition to

another ability they naturally have, like Morrigan in tBatB1.

[Kast]

The other concern is that if scum THINK I'm bus driving myself, they're going to shoot elsewhere if they want to hit me (and especially won't shoot my if they think I'll bus drive myself with them).

[Iecerint]

I see what you mean...

It still puts you under suspicion given that a hypothesized 3rd party is out there, but, etc.

While it's plausible that the scum NK is factional, it's less likely that flavor-mod or a roleblock are factional IMPE. Actually, since there are presumably only 2 scum left, it's almost guaranteed that the kill is factional, since otherwise flavor + roleblock + kill on the same night would be impossible.

[ReaperCharlie]

Also, RC - will we get flavor for Kdub's death? - even a minimal one para should do..

Maybe eventually, though it would be unrelated flavor without hints.

If it was important to gameplay, I would have rewritten it before opening the thread.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vote Kast

[Kast]

@Iec-
Agreed that roleblocking and/or writing kill flavor are probably individual abilities. I'd guess ABR (or Ooba if they're lying and claiming each other's abilities) have an ability like Morrigan's "Just a Dream" that can only be activated if they perform the kill and which lets them modify/write the flavor.

@ABR-
Are you voting me as supposed mafia or are you admitting you are mafia and trying to lynch SK?

@Ooba-
Thanks for putting that night action list together, I just caught your/ABR's slip while reviewing it:

N3
Kdub -> Motivated Amrun (Blocked)
Fate -> Redirected Iece -> Kast

Amrun -> ??? (Plan was for her to steal from ABR)

Iece -> Investigated Kast -> Got "LRRH"

Kast -> Redirect Fate -> Fate (Blocked)

ooba -> No acton
Sathoris -> No acton
ABR -> Mod Flavor Message ability

Scum -> Blocked Kdub

Scum -> Killed Amrun

D4 we saw the kill flavor modified in the way that ABR claimed.

HOWEVER, ABR WAS BLOCKED BY CONFIRMED TOWN AMRUN

Either scum blocked Amrun (in which case there was a mass block that didn't effect Iec), or ABR is lying about his power (and either it works differently or someone else has it).

My guess is that ABR has an ability like Morrigan's "Just a Dream" where he gets to modify the kill flavor if he is the killer. Amrun wouldn't be able to steal/block that ability since it's tied to the mafia kill (assuming her role is a Rikku clone). Ooba is probably the mafia RBer with a one shot mass-RB (or maybe % chance to mass RB?). This is fully consistent with all night actions and also explains the Fitz/Ooba counterclaims as a bussing gambit to confirm one of them.

N1:

Ooba - ?Killed Robo? - Claimed protection of LLD (ambiguously implied LLD as unblockable)
Fitz - ?Killed Robo? - Claimed J/K on Fate
ABR - ?? - Claimed nothing

Sathoris - ?Daykilled? - Claimed Nothing

Amrun - Stole RoleBlock from Robo and RoleBlocked ABR
Fate - Bus Drived Kast and Ooba
Iec - Investigated Fitz
Kast - Bus Drived Kast and Kdub
Kdub - Enhanced LLD (No Result)
LLD - No actions
Robo - ?? (Blocked by Amrun)

N2:

Ooba - Mass Block
Fitz - ?Either blocked or used a non-kill ability?
ABR - ?Either blocked or used a non-kill ability?

Sathoris - ?Kill? (Blocked)

Amrun - Stole from Fate (Blocked)
Fate - Redirect Amrun to Sathoris (No Result; Blocked)
Iec - Investigated Fate (Blocked with Flavor)
Kast - Commuted (Blocked)
Kdub - Enhanced Iec (Blocked)

N3:

Ooba - ?? - Claimed nothing
ABR - ?Killed Amrun? - Claimed Ability Use

Sathoris - ?Kill? (Doubled kill on Amrun or got Blocked)

Amrun - Stole from ABR
Fate - Redirect Iec to Kast
Iec - Investigated Kast
Kast - Redirect Fate to Fate (Blocked with flavor)
Kdub - Enhanced Amrun (No result; Blocked)

N4:

Ooba - ?Block? - Claimed nothing
ABR - ?Kill? (Double on Kdub or Fail on Kast) - Claimed Ability Use

Sathoris - ?Kill? (Double on Kdub or Fail on Kast)

Iec - Investigate Kdub
Kast - Commute
Kdub - Enhanced ??

[Albert B. Rampage]

Kast has still not provided any reasonable arguments as to why I'm scum and thus I am voting him.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Lest we forget his ability is in direct contradiction to Fate's bus driving ability.

[Kast]

@ABR-
O_o Unless I can prove to YOU that YOU are scum, you insist on voting me. How does that make any sense at all?

It's meaningless distraction anyway. You're caught scum. I don't expect you to vote yourself. I expect Iec will see reason and vote you. I expect Sathoris will take the self preservation route and vote you as well. Ooba might bite the bullet and hope he can bus you convincingly, but if he's scum, I'm guessing his BP claim was a lie so he'll likely be shot by the SK anyway.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You're whole reason this ENTIRE time is that "the others find you scummy so I do too". Do you realize how bad that is?

[Iecerint]

Actually the connection he just caught makes sense to me. Amrun blocked you, but the flavor business appeared. This implies that someone else may be the flavor-user, which implies conspiracy, which implies that you're scum with a flavor-user.